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flameofudun
Menegroth
Dec 21 2013, 3:50am
Post #1 of 26
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"We are legion!"
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Now, as I understand, we are all very mature, civil and respectful folks over here, no matter if we disagree, which is why I chose to bring this up. It is on the rather touchy spot of a religion reference in DOS, so please no hate if you disagree with me, and focus on what I am trying to say about the world of middle earth.
Now first off I am a Christian, and one thing i noticed in DOS is When gandalf is confronted by azog and a group of orcs in dol guldur, gandalf says something along the lines of we will destroy you, and azog basically says this is impossible. He then yells a line in black speech( or orkish) that for me is blood curdling. He says" we are legion!" Now I picked up, with the help of a fellow tolkien fan, that this is exactly the same quote that a demon says in the bible. In this bible story, Jesus is attempting to exorcise a demon out of the man, similar to gandalf ridding dol guldur of evil, and the demon claims we are legion, just like azog, and it is revealed that in fact there is quite chillingly a whole host of demons in the man... And that they might be too powerful for Jesus. They aren't and Jesus exorcises them. Long story short this is similar to gandalf clearing out dol guldur and finding the situation much worse and more evil than first thought. Anyways, it is also similar to azog, because it shows that he is slipping into a darker, more evil and demonic situation then just being the Orc commander he once was,he is now a commander of legions and has fallen in with a demonic lot such as the Necromancer, and the nazgul.
So what do you think of the gandalf analogy, and the azog theory, and do you think this was maybe an intentional reference, for those two reasons maybe?
''We are very dangerous over short distances''
-Gimli
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morgoth834
Nevrast
Dec 21 2013, 3:59am
Post #2 of 26
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a reference to the demons from the Bible. I found it a bit cheesy personaly, but hey it worked for the scene.
I kill where I wish and none dare resist.
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Ham_Sammy
Dor-Lomin
Dec 21 2013, 4:06am
Post #3 of 26
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It totally worked. Now had they had a swine go running over a cliff at that point it would have been over the top. But I thought it was perfect in that instance.
Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13
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Meneldor
Doriath
Dec 21 2013, 4:14am
Post #4 of 26
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I also caught the reference immediately, and I think it added just the right sort of chill of fear for those of us who knew the reference. But any more than that would probably be going too far.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
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flameofudun
Menegroth
Dec 21 2013, 4:15am
Post #5 of 26
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Well it gets across the point that
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A. The white council is in deep here and what they are up against truly are an evil, demonic force(nazgul and sauron, or the Necromancer)
B. Azog has truly fallen in with a demonic lot and as with many people who toy with witchcraft in real life, have gotten in to deep with truly pure evil powers.
''We are very dangerous over short distances''
-Gimli
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Dec 21 2013, 4:21am
Post #6 of 26
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although I didn't dwell on it overmuch because the phrase is used in other movies as a sort of short hand for demonic presence.
Now that I think about it though it does possibly set-up Gandalf as an exorcist of sorts, a trait that comes to fruit when he casts Saruman out of Theoden in TTT.
There's an echo of such a thing in the scene where Smeagol tells Gollum, "leave now, and never come back" as well.
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wonderinglinguist
Menegroth
Dec 21 2013, 4:24am
Post #7 of 26
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I caught the reference right away, but didn't think much of it as I figured it was just a coincidence. You make some interesting points, though. If I see the movie again it will be in my mind!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts 
keep smiling
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ecthelionsbeard
Menegroth
Dec 21 2013, 4:49am
Post #8 of 26
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...the demoniac says '' 'I am legion' for we are many'' not '''We are legion...' but it's similar. As a christian myself, I caught the reference immediately but I think it's just a coincidence.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 21 2013, 5:20am
Post #9 of 26
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The usual writing team isn't known for inserting a lot of religious references so I might have said it was just coincidence, but Guillermo often uses religious/Catholic references and imagery and he was very involved in the original scriptwriting. That line may well have come from him and been quite intentional.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Dor-Lomin
Dec 21 2013, 5:35am
Post #10 of 26
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I've heard the line in other stories, films, etc.
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I didn't associate it with anything biblical (which clearly shows my lack of familiarity with the Bible). I didn't think it was particularly original, but I didn't connect it to anything specific.
"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Dec 21 2013, 5:36am)
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Dec 21 2013, 5:56am
Post #11 of 26
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when i heard the line i knew they were alluding to the forces of satan (demons). Azog was always on team sauron though, he was working for sauron in AUJ but yes he has been given a pretty big promotion. Sauron = satan basically. The other scene i thought was a pretty straight out biblical reference was Gandalf with his powerful light beams facing off against sauron who was using darkness to shroud/diminish the light. -And when sauron won it almost looked like Gandalf was in a crucifix position.
I am fire.. I am death. -Smaug the magnificent
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Elskidor
Nargothrond
Dec 21 2013, 6:10am
Post #12 of 26
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Tolkien Elimination Game
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=689393;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
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Fili
Menegroth
Dec 21 2013, 7:49am
Post #13 of 26
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I Think The Phrase Has Morphed Into A Common Trope
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Its been used so often, its almost difficult to imagine a better line to convey the same thing.
“So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.”
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Dlanor da Great
Ossiriand
Dec 21 2013, 8:57am
Post #14 of 26
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I honestly believe it was just a cool line and not meant to be anything more than that.
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Snowghost77
Menegroth
Dec 21 2013, 9:56am
Post #15 of 26
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I did not catch the reference...
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If it was indeed a reference, but im glad you guys have informed me. I too am a Christian, and this line now adds a deeper sense of evil to the entire scene, which works quite well for the films. Thanks for that guys.
(Que: shooting star)..."the more you know"...
Peace.
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you
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erynion
Menegroth
Dec 21 2013, 10:20am
Post #16 of 26
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we lol'd XD but it works anyway.
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MadgeBishop
Nevrast
Dec 21 2013, 10:46am
Post #17 of 26
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The writers must have been aware...
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…of the connotations.
Firstly, the line that is paraphrased is incredibly famous not just because of the Bible but also the Exorcist, a film that PJ will categorically know very well.
Secondly, you cannot have read LOTR and Tolkien in general as much as these guys have an not be aware of the enormously Christian elements in his writing. It is not even subtle and he's famous for it.
You can't have the two facts and it be a coincidence. They may not be intending to infer any links to Christian mythology but they certainly understand the connotations of such a turn of phrase.
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Bladerunner
Mithlond
Dec 21 2013, 1:57pm
Post #18 of 26
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I picked-up on that as well and think it was intentional....
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For those who would be familiar with the Biblical reference, the line would serve as a "shorthand" connection, and for those who were not familiar with it, it would just serve as an interesting or cool threat.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Dec 21 2013, 2:36pm
Post #19 of 26
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Maybe it's my old eyes, but when Azog delivers the line the Wargs in the pit below looked (to me) like swine raging about in a feeding frenzy.
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Rembrethil
Dor-Lomin
Dec 21 2013, 2:56pm
Post #20 of 26
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I thought about it for a while, and wondered if it was intentional, but I think not overtly.
It cannot be denied though, that the Bible has had a huge impact on our culture and history. I've heard many references, and in some cases they are not really aware of the connotation. 'It's David and Goliath out there!' 'It's Judgement day!' 'It's like the Bible!' 'Judge not (lest he be judged)!'. I could go on.
I am not sure it was conscious, but I think that the phrase carries an effect. Whether it be the words, intonations, connotation, or atypical wording and syntax. (How many of us would whip out these words in a real face-off?)
It definitely amps up the Creep Factor in my case, as it was meant to, I suppose.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Dec 21 2013, 3:41pm
Post #21 of 26
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I just thought that they were war veterans...
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American Legion.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Dec 21 2013, 3:52pm
Post #22 of 26
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OTOH it may just mean "we are vast in number." //
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Eruvandi
Dor-Lomin
Dec 21 2013, 4:28pm
Post #23 of 26
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That was the first thing my mind went to the second I heard it
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And it creeped me out a bit!
If that is what the screenwriters were alluding to then it think it was appropriate since Sauron is, in all technicality, a "demon" himself. After all, wasn't he something like a fallen angel in Tolkien's world? That and Tolkien, being a Catholic Christian, had many, many, Christian allusions in his writing. Even the manner in which he described the creation of the world reflects, loosely, the biblical description of creation. So the writers may have been trying to make an allusion that Tolkien might have made, had he written that scene.
Even if they weren't specifically alluding to that passage of scripture, they may have known that a lot of people associate that phrase with the demonic and figured it would at least creep them out...It sure worked for me.
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nandorin elf
Nevrast
Dec 22 2013, 12:12am
Post #24 of 26
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As a Christian, I instantly thought of that verse from the Bible. It really gave me the creeps and lent a more evil feel to the scene. I agree with the others that it was probably intentional; a great way to ramp up the scary factor.
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simonjamesmoore
Lindon
Dec 22 2013, 5:13am
Post #25 of 26
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When I first heard this I, for some reason, thought it was a cheesy nod to 'Anonymous'...
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