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MirielCelebel
Ossiriand
Nov 6 2014, 8:40pm
Post #1 of 45
(1231 views)
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Thranduil and Thorin
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This new trailer brought to my attention an amazing connection between Thranduil and Thorin. We probably all saw it earlier, but how similar these two characters are blows my mind. Did anyone catch the image of Thranduil fighting Tauriel?? Most of you know I'm not a fan of Tauriel, but she has served as his Captain for hundreds of years, she has been a faithful servant to a king who took her in, and a loyal friend to the king's son. Yet something causes Thranduil and her to cross blades. I think we all know it will be his lust for the treasure (a necklace made for his wife by the dwarves, if the Visual Companion is gospel). Either way, I love that this trailer brought out the fact that these two characters who are at odds with one another are so similar and vulnerable and weak to the same thing. Just seeking thoughts on this, GO!
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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Cirashala
Doriath
Nov 6 2014, 8:46pm
Post #2 of 45
(743 views)
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those two are so much alike, they cannot stand each other! 
As to fighting- it looks more like to me like Thranduil slaps her bow out of her hands. Boy he sure looks pissed!
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Olorin2607
Menegroth
Nov 6 2014, 8:53pm
Post #3 of 45
(686 views)
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Paused that particular frame and its her bow he snaps. you can see one part of it in the left part of the screen and on the right the arrow if you pause it at the right moment.
So it seems Tauriel will draw the bow on her king? 
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Eruvandi
Dor-Lomin
Nov 6 2014, 8:56pm
Post #4 of 45
(686 views)
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Technically it wasn't her blade
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Yet something causes Thranduil and her to cross blades. I was obsessively pausing and playing the trailer and after pausing that scene at just the right moment I'm 99.9% positive that Thranduil was knocking Tauriel's bow out of her hand, not a blade.
I think we all know it will be his lust for the treasure (a necklace made for his wife by the dwarves, if the Visual Companion is gospel). I agree that Thranduil and Thorin share some issues, including a lust for treasure, but I seriously doubt that this confrontation between Thranduil and Tauriel is over the necklace. For one thing, why would Tauriel have anything to do with the necklace, much less be pointing her bow and Thranduil over it? She doesn't even know about it as far as we know. Of course, having not seen the movie I don't know what's really going on here, but intuition is telling me it's not about the necklace.
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
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VValar
Mithlond
Nov 6 2014, 9:04pm
Post #5 of 45
(636 views)
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I think you're right and it's Tauriel's bow
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I have a screencap where you see her right arm lifted. I'm not an archer but it's the arm she uses to pull back the string her bow. And when you view the gif after that of that particular scene, you see it clearly as well. I have to rezise it a bit and then I'll post it in TA 
The question now is: did she have an arrow locked onto her bow. And was that arrow pointed at her King??? What just happend here? 
If your ears aren't pointy, you're doing it wrong.
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MirielCelebel
Ossiriand
Nov 6 2014, 9:18pm
Post #7 of 45
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I should have been more specific
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I don't think this particular interaction is over the necklace directly, I'm just saying that the sickness is so heavy on Thranduil that it is causing him to be at odds with his own people and more importantly with someone so close to him. But I love all these points. Thanks for pointing out the bow because I didn't see that the first thousand times I watched it :)
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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Avandel
Gondolin
Nov 6 2014, 10:33pm
Post #9 of 45
(600 views)
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Trailer (spoilers) - *meh* re Thorin treatment and think I just fell in love with Thranduil too
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Either way, I love that this trailer brought out the fact that these two characters who are at odds with one another are so similar and vulnerable and weak to the same thing.
Miriel, hope you don't mind that this post touches on what you mention but also covers a more broad reaction to the trailer - and full disclosure am a mad Thorin/dwarf fan. So:
Not even sure I explain my thoughts properly - anyway from the looks of the trailer - which granted has to distill themes for a broad audience range - I had problems with the treatment of the book Thorin in that I always thought there was plenty of blame to go around. So movie Thorin being a favorite I will ALWAYS be on his side, but even if he wasn't, I suspect I might be getting impatient of what I think is a too simplistic vision of things in this trailer - but then again, it IS a trailer.
And at least early on in the making of these films, it seemed that PJ would take a more balanced approached; e.g. the point is made about Thorin looking after his people; the love for his family, all he suffers; that Bilbo falls under the influence of the Ring; that the elves and dwarves have real strains between them and yet there is a possibility of more e.g. Thorin/Legolas, at least some of Thranduil's motivations are laid out; that Thorin knew of the dragon sickness and feared it, yet was driven by the need to reclaim his legacy...and that the dragon-sickness is a real danger for Thorin.
So the trailer touches a bit of that, but overall the whole tone seemed to be Thorin the greedy *bleep* and even Dwalin says something to that effect, which may be trying to show the depth of Thorin's madness and how far things have gone, but unfortunately I know too much from the Appendices and knowing that Dwalin was at the fall of Erebor and quote "would never question his leader" and I just don't see Dwalin behaving like that - Balin maybe, not Dwalin. So I have a real problem with Thorin basically being *bleeped* on across the board in the trailer anyway. On top of that, Thorin in the trailer is happily *grins* jaw-droppingly beautiful but I'm not seeing a hint of insanity here - so basically it looks like Thorin is perfectly fine and just being a *bleep*.
So I cheered at Thranduil's line tho the reality is I am out of context, probably - "You started this, you will forgive me if I finish it..." I've always loved Thranduil for many reasons, and right then thanked the Valar that that made it in, because FINALLY re both book and movie someone is saying someone else besides Thorin played a part here. Someone besides Thorin who risked it all and wouldn't have even begun this quest without Gandalf *frown*. As far as POSSIBLY taking a tact that Thranduil is, in his way, behaving like the dragon-sick Thorin, I NEVER had that impression of Thranduil from the book "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold" - sure, he wants his white gems but to the degree that this Elven King, who well knew the price of war in the book AND in the film, has suddenly forgotten all that?
As far as Thranduil doing whatever with Tauriel, I am also getting tired really fast of the "teenagers know better than their messed-up elders" stuff which seemed to be going on here, I suspect - Tauriel wants to nobly do something and seems to forget *cough* this is her King and she is CAPTAIN of the GUARD who is supposed to follow orders; we have Kili insulting his King and father figure (who has waded in blood up to his knees and gee, quite a different attitude from Kili than Thorin and his father - and for me, I wanted to slap Kili myself for that one - shameful after Thorin has probably heard by now of the death of his father....) So Tauriel is "nobly" defying - from the looks of things - her king, a warrior 6,000 years old? I suppose that is supposed to be heart-stabbing or something, but if I am correct I just found it irritating.
Overall my reaction is that from the trailer, it seems that PJ has opted for a more simplistic, superficial treatment than I was expecting and the Tauriel/Kili thing seems to be something that hormone-churning young teens will cheer (of course adults are stupid and wrong). However it IS just a trailer - on the other hand here's PJ talking about making a short film, so maybe that is all it will ever be, without any balancing of Bard' lack of empathy for the dwarves' right to reclaim their kingdom, that Gandalf left the dwarves and not even Radagast or some Lothlorien elf was sent after the dwarves, that Thranduil's own father had been slaughtered at Mordor long years ago with 2/3 of his people, and so on. It's also irritating in that quite a lot was shown of the nobility of Thorin's character in the first two films ("you turned away from the suffering of my people....") and now he is a *bleep*? No.
If I am correct it's probably an approach that will play well with a younger demographic and/or people who just love to see the mighty become baddies and fall, but I was hoping for more depth and flat-out fairness - speaking of which, while it is nice to FINALLY see more familial affection re Thorin and his nephews; WHERE IS FILI?????!!!!! It's Fili that is Thorin's heir, and probably the one who sees to it that the dwarves in Laketown get to Erebor. If anyone were to be arguing openly with Thorin, to my mind it would have been Fili - why does it look through all this as though Kili is constantly with Thorin - from early AUJ featurettes RA had said that Thorin has a soft spot for Kili, but don't think that was ever brought out really in the films, so what is Kili hanging around Thorin so much for (it seems).
Finally, what is it with these bats - a rehash line "bred for a single purpose" (hello LOTR!!! LOL they will be here by nightfall...) but I like bats as animals, and re movies tho especially with the recent vampire movies think bats as a motif have been overdone - I almost wanted to laugh at the bats. I thought the bats would be just some sort of evidence of darkness coming, not something you would highlight in a trailer. Bats.
So, re the OP's original request for thoughts on the "weakness" of T & T - my reaction is "meh". Neither character is weak by my understanding of that term, and it will be a real failing of this film IMO if it opts for the "easy out" of well, T & T are "greedy" and forgets its own material and both canon and "forged by PJ & co. back stories". Of course *snark* we have seen that happen with the details re the dwarves already.
On a side note - well, Thorin and Thranudil = EYE CANDY and as a Thorin fan guess I should be happy the horror director PJ didn't have Thorin grow fangs or something. And finally Legolas looks very cool - nice knife work. Looks like some fuzzy? CGI going on. Overall visual treat mostly but a tad soap opera and not what I was expecting - thought the previous teaser moved me more vs. me getting impatient/irritated. But it's a trailer that will work for a broad audience I guess. (And I am still mad about the lack of Fili...)
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Iris70
Lindon
Nov 6 2014, 11:05pm
Post #10 of 45
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I more or less think the same, I found the trailer too "Thorin-the-bad-guy" oriented so I welcomed Thranduil saying that the ACTUAL fault was Gandalf's, who was responsible for giving Thorin the map and key and goading him into reclaiming his kingdom. I loved the familiar scene with Kili but I wondered myself...where's Fili? I remember Thorin saying, in DOS, "one day you will be king". So?
Anyway, I think this is just a trailer and let's not forget that PJ is a little Ba***rd (in a good sense) so he can keep everything wrapped and hidden until the final disclosure on the big screen!
Can't wait to see it, though!
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Avandel
Gondolin
Nov 6 2014, 11:07pm
Post #11 of 45
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*Laughs* thank you for this Iris70
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Anyway, I think this is just a trailer and let's not forget that PJ is a little Ba***rd (in a good sense) so he can keep everything wrapped and hidden until the final disclosure on the big screen! LOL - yes, PJ is...*grins*
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 6 2014, 11:09pm
Post #12 of 45
(523 views)
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I am shocked! I thought you were gonna love this trailer! It appears you've been stricken with a fairly severe bout of pessimism. You may have contracted it from me. What can I do? What can I say? How about you guzzle a carton of orange juice, take a nap, do some Tai-Chai when you wake up, and then watch the trailer again, yes?
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Nov 6 2014, 11:13pm)
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Avandel
Gondolin
Nov 6 2014, 11:37pm
Post #14 of 45
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*Grins* some wise words perhaps, about how the "bad Thorin, you bad boy, everybody is SOOOOOOOOOOO disappointed in you" motif is just evil PJ getting the fan contingent riled up (otherwise he wouldn't have kept Thorin looking so *insanely* beautiful) - which only proves how evil PJ is because all those Heir of Durin fans will now be online, complaining of the lack of Fili and treatment of Thorin - nothing like FREE viral advertising. Even better, all the Thranduil and elf fans will be online as well!
Not to mention all the chatter will get folks to forget about snooping for images of Dain and Beorn!
You know, this talk with you has made me feel a bit better already, tho I think PJ is truly evil to have thought this way . (I'll try not to remember an earlier post, thinking about the lack of assorted missing EE footage *cough* and IMO some needed depth for some things...)
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Avandel
Gondolin
Nov 7 2014, 12:42am
Post #15 of 45
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A thought - maybe it's nothing but a moment
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Because re the trailer looks like this is Dale, and re elf cat-like reflexes if Thranduil has been fighting multiple enemies and Tauriel comes up to him unexpectedly from behind, then I could see Thranduil turning on her because he is still in "fighting" mode (he looks gorgeously furious.) So perhaps Tauriel should have called out before coming up to Thranduil? LOL at this point we could assume there is a pile of orc bodies around...
(Only say this as re DOS I thought the scene of Bilbo falling backward in the water in the trailer looked creepy and ominous, and then in the film it turns out to be part of an amusing scene.....)
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Bard'sBlackArrow
Menegroth
Nov 7 2014, 1:34am
Post #16 of 45
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Boy you hit the nail right on the head with your post Avandel. I've watched it three times and am very disappointed with many things you mention.
And I agree. I am glad that Thranduil addresses that Gandalf is indeed the instigator here (as he darn well is), but the Thorin smack downs were a bit ridiculous (seriously Dwalin?!?) and did not feel they fit the characters and the situation.
Hopefully, the film will right many of the very shallow moments on display here. I'd like to see the mirror characters Miriel and you describe as Richard and Lee are terrific together.
But I digress... I will hope for good things with the movie itself.
... on the other side of tomorrow...
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Avandel
Gondolin
Nov 7 2014, 2:05am
Post #17 of 45
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Thank you! Didn't want to derail the OP but thought Thorin/Thranduil depiction and everything as whole are just so interconnected - and JARRING re things like Thranduil being obsessed with this necklace (if he wanted it that badly, would he not have tried before in SOME way before with all those elves and elvish power at his call?) Did not Thranduil say "I am patient, I can wait"? Is he not a character who has seen ages pass?
but the Thorin smack downs were a bit ridiculous (seriously Dwalin?!?) and did not feel they fit the characters and the situation.
Dwalin is REALLY bothering me. Dwalin strikes me as the type who would be mostly silent, worry in silence, but he grew up with Thorin - they have been together for YEARS. Dwalin doesn't strike me as the type who thinks in depth, and would be most likely to support Thorin especially re elves. He's a soldier e.g. live and fight, etc. So in the space of a few days he's spouting lines like "Bilbo is right?"
SO LAME I wanted more dwarf presence, yes, but not like this and IMO that line is trite, weak, wrong. This from people who can write lines and speeches that are often epic?
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
(This post was edited by Avandel on Nov 7 2014, 2:09am)
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Cirashala
Doriath
Nov 7 2014, 2:34am
Post #18 of 45
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that's why Dwalin is the PERFECT counterfoil to Thorin's madness
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because he is Thorin's staunchest supporter.
If it were any of the others, it wouldn't be as poignant and show how far Thorin has truly sunk than if it were Dwalin speaking. He's also one of the few whom (I believe) has such a level of closeness with Thorin that he can be completely, totally, 100% honest to his friend.
If you saw your best, truest friend drowning, whether it be in water or mentally with dragon sickness, there's only so long you can keep quiet before you have to say something. He's clearly worried about Thorin here- very worried.
He IS a soldier as well- that tells me that he isn't stupid- he probably channels that mostly into fighting, but he's not stupid. And, being a soldier, he likely can recognize when to fight and when to run. If he were the type of soldier who was ALWAYS fight, fight, fight, then he wouldn't have had the sense to run from the huge goblin army after them in the Goblin King's tunnels.
I have a feeling that, at this point, Thorin is beyond the scope of reasonable and practical. They need food, they have armies at their doorstep, and for all we know, the orcs may already be there or will be soon. Dwalin is a soldier, but he understands loyalty and a willing heart. And when a fight cannot be won.
And a mad Thorin is not the person he swore loyalty to. The mad Thorin is not the person he befriended.
If it is so bad that DWALIN speaks up, that's a clear indicator to the audience just how far Thorin has fallen. The impact of that would not be quite so huge if it were any of the other dwarves, so that's probably why they picked him to say it. I actually think that's very good writing on that one, but that's just me
I have a feeling I'm going to be tearing up when he delivers this line!
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Nov 7 2014, 2:36am)
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 7 2014, 3:40am
Post #19 of 45
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You and I are fully aware of PJ's sinisterness
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Judging by your above post (I may be wrong), I conclude that you're mainly bothered by the trailer because Thorin is shown in a less than flattering light. You're miffed because everybody and their dog is blaming the Mountain King. I would say that this is an expected aspect of the tragedy. Skirting around this was unlikely. Also, I'm sure it is PJ's intention to raise the blood pressure of the Thorin thralls as well.
You know, it's probably gonna be all the more heartbreaking because throughout the entire directed onslaught of somewhat unfair judgment, Thorin is likely going to find a way to convey his perspective to us and thus gain our sympathy. I'm confident that he'll get to vehemently state his case. He'll get his momentously endearing moments. It's the right thing to do and I think the filmmakers know this.
And how about that Richard Armitage, eh? Remember what I had once said about the 'acting' in the final instalment? This is what I was talking about. And it's not just Richard but pretty much everybody; everybody acting their butts off and letting loose. No matter how much it hurts you to see Thorin being vilified, you won't be able to prevent yourself from being swept up and taken along for this amazing ride.
I am curious though (this is a genuine question), could you tell me in a succinct and straight-forward manner what exactly you want from this movie in terms of character arcs and interaction? What exactly am I missing? Or a better question would be: what exactly are the filmmakers seemingly missing?
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Nov 7 2014, 3:52am)
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 7 2014, 3:46am
Post #20 of 45
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That conversation is all the more powerful and impactful because it's Dwalin saying those words. It heightens Thorin's sickness and lends more weight to his arc.
The points that you have made are really excellent. Now, do you think that you could perhaps somehow address the 'Thranduil' issue that Avandel raises in her post?
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
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Cirashala
Doriath
Nov 7 2014, 4:14am
Post #21 of 45
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The answer to that question (of why Thranduil didn't bother trying to get the necklace before) is pretty darn obvious to me- THERE'S A FREAKING DRAGON IN EREBOR. And I think he has a strong objection to being barbecued
Therefore, I felt no need to address that part
Unless I'm talking about the wrong post...it's not like there's been about a thousand new posts in the last ten hours on TH board...oh wait
As to why he couldn't wait though he's immortal- it's simple. He wants to 'flee' the growing darkness by withdrawing into his halls. Pretty soon, there will be too much evil for him to casually stroll to the mountain and obtain the necklace.
By now, he may know that Sauron is the Necromancer- I don't know when in this movie Gandalf will show up to announce the coming threat. And if he knows that, you bet everything he's NOT going to leave those halls again! Not til Sauron is vanquished. He "died" once- now again supposedly thanks to the White Council, and this time, there's no guarantee that he's not going to come back somehow again. (Besides, I read somewhere that, in the book, he's a bit miffed at being excluded from the council so he may not trust them at their word that Sauron is vanquished, but I could be wrong on that).
There's also no guarantee that, once control of the mountain is completely restored to the dwarves, he'll ever be able to set foot in it again- let alone survive long enough to acquire the necklace. Right now, as things stand, there are (presumably) 13 dwarves (and 1 hobbit, but he doesn't know about Bilbo yet I'm assuming), and, albeit filled in, a gaping hole in the front of the mountain. There's also a hidden entrance somewhere, though he doesn't know where. But he has scouts with very sharp eyes that can look for it during the siege.
He has an entire army- pitted against 13 ill-supplied dwarves and a drafty Erebor. He has the upper hand until more dwarves arrive, and he knows it. The evil isn't yet so great that the journey cannot be made. He may also (thanks to the orc interrogation) believe at least one of the company to either be dead or on death's doorstep (as he may yet be unaware of Tauriel's intervention). Or if he does know, that the dwarf may not be 100% healed yet. The dwarves also have had no chance, other than the rations supplied to them by Laketown, to stock up on supplies to withstand a long siege. And Thranduil is also familiar enough with the Master's policies (being an intimate trade partner) that he probably knows or could easily guess just how much or how little they do have.
If there is ANY time to try and get that necklace back, it's now, when the dwarves are at nearly every disadvantage to fight back (for long, anyway) and not later, when supplies and reinforcements arrive (and it's not the cusp of winter), and the gaps in the mountain's defenses are repaired.
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KeenObserver
Menegroth
Nov 7 2014, 4:56am
Post #22 of 45
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I really shouldn't have asked you to do that.
I just thought that there couldn't be any real issues because
motives and circumstances seem to be so obvious.
So it felt like I might have been missing something completely.
I wasn't missing anything after all.
Thanks for replying to my post anyway.
I appreciate your detailed and comprehensive theories/explanations.
They offer really valuable insight and they help me organize my own thoughts.
”The thirst for adventure is the vent which Destiny offers; a war, a crusade, a gold mine, a new country, speak to the imagination and offer…” - Jose Bergamin
(This post was edited by KeenObserver on Nov 7 2014, 5:03am)
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Cirashala
Doriath
Nov 7 2014, 5:07am
Post #23 of 45
(370 views)
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Sometimes things aren't so complicated as they come across to be-sometimes the explanation is actually pretty simple
You're welcome. It mystified me a little bit, but it's all good
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Arveldis
Ossiriand
Nov 7 2014, 5:58am
Post #24 of 45
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Avandel, I think the pessimism is contagious.
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On my first viewing of the trailer I was so excited that we were finally getting the trailer that I pretty much left my mind behind and passively watched it. A few viewings later, I'd found things that annoyed me, and I've now complained to no end all night about my not-so-favorite parts. I'm feeling very "glass is half empty" right now. Usually I'm much more chipper, so it's a real downer that the trailer started out good and then left a negative impact on me.
First it was Tauriel. I'll not go into details and start an open war here, but I think she had too much time (again). Why can't some of her time be devoted to more important characters? I understand that she's now part of the story, but can't she just be toned down?
Second was the fact that Fili was, as usual, ignored. I could say more on this, but my post might end up being miles longer than it already is (and it seems fellow Fili fans have already taken care of this in another thread). Suffice it to say, I shall be watching every Fili clip I can find on Youtube tonight to make up for his lack of presence.
And my third gripe, after reading some posts on here, was that Thorin was criticized to no end. Every time he turned around someone was complaining about him. First Bard, then Dwalin, then Kili... Does the poor dwarf ever get a break?
Now, I do realize that at this point Thorin has the dragon sickness and is pretty much an anti hero, and even the villain to some people. But, seriously, everyone complaining about him? Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought only a few dwarves disagreed with him in the book (Bombur, Fili, and Kili). And those dwarves, if I am remembering correctly, were too fearful of him that they didn't want to argue with him. Why, then, is suddenly everyone jumping on the bandwagon and yelling at Thorin? Is it "Bash Thorin" day or something?
I think all of the dwarves have forgotten everything he's done for them. He built a new home for them in Ered Luin and gave them better lives. He went out on a quest that could pretty much be considered a suicide mission, because, really, how exactly did they think they were going to kill the dragon? He had plenty of chances to turn back, and there were many times when any normal person would, but he didn't. He's done everything for his people and they're mouthing off to him about how changed he is? That doesn't seem right. I know the dragon sickness makes him a less-than-ideal person to be around, but he's not evil; he's just "fallen." He can't really help it either -- from what I understand, the dragon sickness is genetic. It's not like he asked to go mad.
I was extremely surprised by Dwalin. If I had been asked to pick a dwarf that would stand up to Thorin he would be my last choice. He's like Thorin's right-hand man, his closest confidante, the friend who's been through thick and thin with him and seen it all. With what we've seen of his character, I'd think that he would be the type of person who would stand off to the side and process things on his own, not criticize his king. So are we to assume that Thorin's really gone off the deep end, more so than the book? PJ did say he was more interested in charting Thorin's madness than he was depicting horrid battle scenes.
Kili absolutely blew me away. I couldn't believe that I was watching Kili; it was like he'd been bodysnatched or something. The dwarf that was so hurt when Thorin put him in his place in AUJ now suddenly blows up in front of his uncle, the man he practically hero worships? What happened to Kili and where did he go? I understand that he was hurt and offended when Thorin told him he couldn't come to the Mountain -- I would be too. In fact, I'd probably have let it rip in front of Thorin long ago, but that's just me. I thought that some sort of resistance to Thorin would be coming from the Fili and Kili department (mainly Fili though) due to the events of Lake-town and Thorin's madness, but I did not expect the irate shouting that we got in the trailer. I think Tauriel's been a bad influence on him...
I am also getting tired really fast of the "teenagers know better than their messed-up elders" stuff which seemed to be going on here, I suspect - Tauriel wants to nobly do something and seems to forget *cough* this is her King and she is CAPTAIN of the GUARD who is supposed to follow orders; we have Kili insulting his King and father figure (who has waded in blood up to his knees and gee, quite a different attitude from Kili than Thorin and his father - and for me, I wanted to slap Kili myself for that one - shameful after Thorin has probably heard by now of the death of his father....) So Tauriel is "nobly" defying - from the looks of things - her king, a warrior 6,000 years old? I suppose that is supposed to be heart-stabbing or something, but if I am correct I just found it irritating.
I'm getting tired of it too. Am I supposed to like Tauriel because she defies orders and "does what's right?" So far, she's had very little impact on my emotional state (other than serving to get me riled up, like now). I, quite frankly, don't consider her noble. She can't even follow rules!
I talked about Kili above, but, yes, I was mad at him too. I also wanted to grab him by the shoulders and shake some sense into him when he handed his runestone to Tauriel. It was his mother's gift to him, and a reminder to Kili of his promise to her. That's a bond between Kili and his mother, not him and an elf that he met all of a week ago.
My question precisely. In fact, it's exactly what I've been moping and griping about all night. It seems that my little idea of him talking to Thorin and showing him his madness got shot to a million pieces. I'm still hoping that he might say something though, perhaps off to the side to Thorin. All of that buildup and tension in Lake-town can't just fizzle out to nothing. I'm guessing that he won't have the passionate shouting of Kili because he's more reserved and *cough* classier. I'm also still holding out hope that he'll be the leader of the Lake-town four back to the Mountain. And then there's always the scene...*sniff*
I have complained for an entire post again, so I suppose I should post about the things that made me happy.
1) Elrond. I don't know why, but I've always loved him (must be the eyebrows), and my eyes glazed over during that one shot of him in Dol Guldur. Did he define epic or what?
2) Thranduil. Personally I would never want to meet him, but he is an extremely interesting character and wonderfully played by LP. I loved his lines in the trailer.
3) I agree that Legolas looked cool. He looked much more like LotR Legolas to me, and while I'm not struck by his beauty any more (yes, I was one of those fans  -- I'm reformed, I swear!), well, he did look mighty fine in one scene.
4) Thorin. While he was painted in a bad light, I was still bowled over by RA's acting. For him not being much like Thorin in real life, he did a phenomenal job bringing him to life.
I still love the trailer, but I really hope that what we're seeing isn't a big part of the movie. I have to remember that it is just promotional material, and so the scenes were probably hand-picked to have the biggest impact and rake in the most viewers. It's not the end of the world, and no matter what I know I'll love the movie. What we've seen worries me though... *goes off to watch a Fili clip and cope*
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VValar
Mithlond
Nov 7 2014, 10:05am
Post #25 of 45
(341 views)
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You're right I may have made it into a bigger deal than it is in truth
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For it very well could be nothing more than just a very small moment where Thranduil reprimands his Captain for her disobedience. Then again, why would he be so angry?
I like your theory, that would imply Thranduil looked so dangerously upset because he is still in Orc-killing-mode. However, it does seem directed at Tauriel specifically (his beautifuly, lustful anger that is) 
I hope we'll discuss more in TA so if you ever feel the need to step in and share your thoughts, that would be terrific!
Wow re your trailer post. I really thought you would like the trailer since it's very Thorin centered. Does it may have something to do with Thorin's ending and, as of yet, nothing in the trailer seems to to him the justice you want him to have? Then again PJ does know how to evoke the right emotions in the films with the audience, so I think in the end people will root for Thorin and be severely depressed when the time comes...
On a side note - well, Thorin and Thranudil = EYE CANDY and as a Thorin fan guess I should be happy the horror director PJ didn't have Thorin grow fangs or something . And finally Legolas looks very cool - nice knife work.
Of course I have to agree with you on this one, how amazing do they look? That must make up for some of your critizism The level of hotness just went through the roof And Leggy finally doing some cool, realistic fighting. Let's see how long that lasts
Finally, what is it with these bats - a rehash line "bred for a single purpose" (hello LOTR!!! LOL they will be here by nightfall...) but I like bats as animals, and re movies tho especially with the recent vampire movies think bats as a motif have been overdone - I almost wanted to laugh at the bats. I thought the bats would be just some sort of evidence of darkness coming, not something you would highlight in a trailer. Bats.
LOL exactly my thoughts about the bats line. BUT I don't mind, it didn't put me off and I thought it fitted well within the trailer. Love the bats, I think they looked ominous, dangerous and will be a great addition to the battle.
Re the where is Fili question? I would like to know that too. The trailer was way too focussed on Kili. But it could be deceptive, trailers are designed that way. So we might be in for a good bit of Fili yet, who knows? It wasn't something that got me too worked up over.
Interesting observation about Dwalin. You don't like him being the one to oppose Thorin, but I like Cirashala's strain of thoughts that Dwalin is the perfect Dwarf to address Thorin about his change of behaviour. He is such good and loyal friend, if anyone Dwalin would be the one Thorin might listen to?
So I cheered at Thranduil's line tho the reality is I am out of context, probably - "You started this, you will forgive me if I finish it..." I've always loved Thranduil for many reasons, and right then thanked the Valar that that made it in , because FINALLY re both book and movie someone is saying someone else besides Thorin played a part here. Someone besides Thorin who risked it all and wouldn't have even begun this quest without Gandalf *frown*. As far as POSSIBLY taking a tact that Thranduil is, in his way, behaving like the dragon-sick Thorin, I NEVER had that impression of Thranduil from the book "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold" - sure, he wants his white gems but to the degree that this Elven King, who well knew the price of war in the book AND in the film, has suddenly forgotten all that?
Obviously I need to address this too and I AGREE with you on this one 100%
Book Thranduil surely was NOT greedy and hungry for gold/gems/whatever. Movie Thranduil seems like he is. It might be the deceptive trailer who gives us this impression, but I really DO WANT the 'Long will I tarry ere I begin this war for gold' line played out in the film, or at least its sentiment because Thranduil was in fact one of the few who didn't want to start the war in the first place.
But I remember one of Thranduil's lines during the battle in Dale, it was written down in a magazine and unfortunately I can't find it anymore. But during a pause in the battle, Gandalf and Thranduil are having a small conversation where Gandalf is trying to convince Thranduil in fighting with him/warning the Dwarves. Thranduil replies that he will not do such a thing because he already has spilled enough Elven blood in these forsaken lands. I don't remember the exact words, if I come by the article I will post it. So there is hope yet for the characterisation of our Elven King
If your ears aren't pointy, you're doing it wrong.
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