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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 3:00am
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Thranduil and Galadriel - mutual dislike?
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Thranduil, whether Sindarin or not, led an independent Sindarin (Teleri origin) elvish kingdom. Galadriel, being of both Noldor and Teleri descent came from a different culture. I don't think he felt any need to bow to Galadriel though there may have been grudging mutual respect. HIs insular kingdom is probably what kept him out of regular White Council activity, though he aided on occasion. However, Legolas is deferential.
The Noldor are accounted the most skilled of all peoples in lore, warfare and crafts; they are therefore called the "Deep Elves". In Valinor "great became their knowledge and their skill; yet even greater was their thirst for more knowledge, and in many things they soon surpassed their teachers," Wiki
Was their an ancient dislike from the kinslaying and/or jealousy of achievement? It seems they lived without much contact, or if there was, it was very limited. At the end of the War of the Ring the borders were set with Beornings between Thranduil and Celeborn. I wonder if Thranduil would have come to the aid of Lorien if they had not also been fending off attacks with their allies the Dwarves and Men of Dale. My guess is that yes, as they had a common enemy, but I imagine a lot of pride would have been on display.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 2 2013, 3:07am)
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Rane
Nevrast
Jan 2 2013, 3:09am
Post #2 of 29
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I think he would have come *movie spoilers*
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But like you said they'd have been somewhat aloof towards each other. I don't know if they'll meet at all in the movie, but there is a possibility; especially since Galadriel told Gandalf to call on her when he needed help. Who knows when that might be (the big battle?)
(This post was edited by Rane on Jan 2 2013, 3:10am)
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ElendilTheShort
Mithlond
Jan 2 2013, 3:58am
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I would refer you to the chapter "Lothlorien" in LOTR
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there is so much material there and so many possible quotes showing mutual friendship, respect, reverence etc between the peope of Mirkwood & Lothlorien as contempories and throughout their history that it is beyond reasonable to believe that the two leaders of the respective realms had a mutual dislike for each other. Further to this there is no evidence to point to any mutual dislike. There may be something embedded in HOME somewhere but nothing comes to mind.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 4:23am
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The two realms certainly are very separate and as Haldir says ".....and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk."....and Thranduil is of a different personality than Legolas (who was welcomed warmly by Celeborn).
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 4:58am
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Interestingly, there is some evidence that Thranduil
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and Celeborn - a Teleri - may have shared kinship. Both were the ruling class over "lesser" Sylvlan elves.
Legolas did come as a representative of Thranduil so he did respond to the call to come to Rivendell.
My feeling is that Thranduil and Galadriel had rarely met but knew of each other and like other "rulers" had cordial relations but acted out of self interest. I don't think either would have allowed any meddling in their affairs.
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Fredeghar Wayfarer
Menegroth
Jan 2 2013, 5:33am
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I doubt that they disliked each other. Both held similar roles as the leaders of communities of Silvan Elves. They were peers to an extent. As a Sindarin Elf, Thranduil may have had ill will for the Noldor due to the Kinslaying. But Galadriel didn't participate directly in that event, or at least didn't take any lives. Granted, Thranduil likely wouldn't bow to Galadriel or consider her his superior. He's Sindar nobility and of a different kindred than her. But I imagine they'd show each other mutual respect.
As for being left out of the White Council, that was made up of the wisest and most powerful beings in Middle-earth. Thranduil wasn't a Wizard and he wasn't a Ring-bearer. I don't see why he'd be included. There were plenty of other lords and kings that didn't make the cut either.
(This post was edited by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jan 2 2013, 5:34am)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 9:55am
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...it is said that Oropher, Thranduil's father, moved north to Greenwood/ later Mirkwood to establish a base away from the power of the dwarves in Moria and of Celeborn and Galadriel in Lorien. Lorien had a Sindarin king - Oropher, being Sindarin himself, held himself apart from the Noldor, though his people were still in regular contact with the Lorien elves. But he took an army of his people to fight alongside the Lorien elves in the Battle of Dagorlad where he and the King of Lorien were killed. Thranduil survived with a much reduced army and a lasting fear of Mordor - he believed that Sauron would return.
I don't think he felt any need to bow to Galadriel - after all, he was a king. She wasn't a queen, only the 'Lady' of a people whose royal line had died out. I think you're right with 'mutual respect' but also distance. Once he became king, Thranduil seems to have wanted to keep himself and his people apart. It's said in UT that his people, coming originally from Doriath, felt the same resentment of the Noldorin elves and wanted to keep their own separate identity. Also the land between the two kingdoms became more dangerous with the fall of Moria and the rise of Dol Guldur.
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Nerven
Ossiriand
Jan 2 2013, 12:18pm
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think I read somewhere that Thranduil doesn´t like Galadriel cause she is of the Noldor, but I can´t imagine that Galadriel holds any sort of grudge against him, she´s just not the person for that. She was always open to inferiour races, be it dwarfes or wood elves. Thranduil, I think was not invited to the white council, therefore he maybe hold no symphatie for Galadriel.
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mutelock
Nevrast
Jan 2 2013, 1:19pm
Post #9 of 29
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Small detail I don't understand
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Why is Thranduil's kingdom considered insulated when it's Galadriel and Celeborn's people who hide in the forest? I know it has to do with the power of Galadriel's ring and so forth, keep the evil out of their borders, etc... But, in my opinion, Thranduil is as much of a political animal as Galadriel is. She may pull the strings, but Thranduil seems to forge alliances with everyone around him: the Men of Esgaroth, of Dale, the Men of the Forest, the Beornings, even the people of Dorwinion for goodness sake, whoever they were; the elves probably even started trading with the dwarves again after the incident with the dragon, even if they didn't get along. These are the peoples who help him defend his borders during the War of the Ring, who let him help Lorien in the end. Very intelligent of him, I might add, given that Thranduil had no ring.
So why is Thranduil's kingdom considered insulated when most people seem to know where it is? Doesn't "insulated" mean "isolated"? Because Northern Mirkwood sure has a bunch of friends!
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Jan 2 2013, 1:28pm
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I wonder if Thranduil had a palantir
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he has silver boots, he probably thinks its a disco ball. 
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Nerven
Ossiriand
Jan 2 2013, 1:36pm
Post #11 of 29
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Thranduil really make alliances with otheres realm, even with Men? I rather had the impression that he prefered having no contact with other realms, at least in the third age.
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mutelock
Nevrast
Jan 2 2013, 2:47pm
Post #12 of 29
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The elves traded with the people of Esgaroth and they seemed to be on friendly terms, even before the Battle of the Five Armies. It's unlikely that situation would change after the battle. Dale was re-populated with people of Esgaroth: they too would be on friendly terms with the elves. And I remember reading somewhere (can't remember the book, sorry...) that the Beornings helped the elves defending their kingdom. And Dorwinion... Well, there was that famous wine trade going on. Maybe I've played too much Age of Empires when I was a kid, but the way I see it, you don't trade with peoples you don't have alliances with. Of course, I could be wrong. I know nothing of commerce, or economy, or politics. I know that ships in blockade would sometimes buy their "enemy" fishermen's fish, but that's about it
But my doubt really lies in the word "insulated". To me, saying that Thranduil's kingdom was "insulated", means that no one would have contact with it. Which doesn't happen. It happens with Lothlorien though, which seems to be this place taken out of legend. When Eomer encounters Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli he's surprised that someone lives in Lorien, he speaks of old stories and sorcery; but he doesn't think it's strange that that elf standing in from of him is from Mirkwood. You know what I mean?
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 2:49pm
Post #13 of 29
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Before and After the Smaug there was trade and after the
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fall of Smaug there appears to have been much closer relationship / alliance of a sort with the Dwarves and Men of Dale so that by the time of the LOTR they worked together. Both Thranduil and Galadriel had "insular" realms....gaurded, remote and not easily reached.
Definition of INSULAR
1
a : of, relating to, or constituting an island
b : dwelling or situated on an island <insular residents> (Both were islands within great forests)
2
: characteristic of an isolated people; especially : being, having, or reflecting a narrow provincial viewpoint (Both were self contained but I think Thranduil would have held the more provincial).
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 2 2013, 3:51pm
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"When Eomer encounters Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli he's surprised that someone lives in Lorien, he speaks of old stories and sorcery; but he doesn't think it's strange that that elf standing in from of him is from Mirkwood. You know what I mean?"
_______________________________________
I had never looked at it that way!
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 4:09pm
Post #15 of 29
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If you read that section in TTT Eomer is amazed
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at many things....Elves, Halflings. Eomer asks Aragorn if they are "elvish folk" because they seemted to have come from out of the grass. Aragorn tells him that only one is an elf...Legolas from the distant Woodland Realm. Eomer is also amazed that Lorien has indeed a Lady of the Golden Wood and they are not merely tales.
*The movie is different of course.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 2 2013, 4:10pm)
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ForestPark
Ossiriand
Jan 2 2013, 7:38pm
Post #17 of 29
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Who is the highest Elf of All ??
Why you my Lord
with pointed ears
and high arched brow.
Who is equal to Thou?
Wide spread anters and narrow hips
Crown of gold and son who lisps
Igrore the jealous elder bitch
You are all that and a bag of chips
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Elenorflower
Mithlond
Jan 2 2013, 7:58pm
Post #18 of 29
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funny Hobbit
gone all poetical
can you stoppit
or your nose
will end up
like Bobbitt.
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Rostron2
Mithlond
Jan 2 2013, 8:01pm
Post #19 of 29
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They're just very different groups of elves, although there was some mingling in Lorien. Thranduil's people suffered a lot in the Last Alliance, and this somewhat accounts for their insular nature.
In terms of the movie. They don't have time to go back and rehash elven history and trace all the family trees as we do. Certainly, they have an awareness of what's going on as shown by Legolas coming to Rivendell.
The inclusion of Bilbo in the venture is certainly going to make Thranduil curious (later). If it was just a dwarven venture, he would probably not be interested in what they do.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 8:02pm
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Very good, I can imagine Thranduil having his admiring cronies.....
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 2 2013, 8:40pm
Post #21 of 29
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Yes but in that section, he doesn't question the part about Legolas
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being from Mirkwood. He only 'looks at them with renewed wonder' in relation to the part about the Lady in the Golden Wood.
That's why I said, hmm I hadn't really looked at it that way before. In TTT excerpt below, it's Eomer who suggests first that they may be elves, so if he seriously thinks it's possible that they're elves, then he must be familiar with elves from somewhere, but if he then goes on in his next sentence to be surprised that the Lady in the Golden Wood actually exists, then wherever he thought these possible elves were from, it wasn't from there. Which is why I thought mutelock might have had a point that maybe Eomer was familiar with the Mirkwood elves, because he doesn't seem to be surprised with the Mirkwood part of Aragorn's reply, only the Lorien part.
******************************************
'At first I thought that you yourselves were Orcs,' he said, 'but now I see that it is not so. Indeed you know little of Orcs, if you go hunting them in this fashion. They were swift and well-armed, and they were many. You would have changed from hunters to prey, if ever you had overtaken them. But there is something strange about you, Strider.' He bent his clear bright eyes again upon the Ranger. 'That is no name for a Man that you give. And strange too is your raiment. Have you sprung out of the grass? How did you escape our sight? Are you elvish folk?'
'No,' said Aragorn. 'One only of us is an Elf, Legolas from the Woodland Realm in distant Mirkwood. But we have passed through Lothlorien, and the gifts and favour of the Lady go with us.'
The Rider looked at them with renewed wonder, but his eyes hardened. 'Then there is a Lady in the Golden Wood, as old tales tell!' he said. 'Few escape her nets, they say. These are strange days! But if you have her favour, then you also are net-weavers and sorcerers, maybe.' He turned a cold glance suddenly upon Legolas and Gimli. 'Why do you not speak, silent ones?' he demanded.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 2 2013, 8:48pm
Post #22 of 29
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I think he knew elves existed but had not really encountered any
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as most of what he heard seemed like long ago tales or mostly forgotten history. I am sure he never ventured into Mirkwood and had never been to Rivendell. I doubt any elves ventured to Rohan or even Gondor. It had been centuries since the Last Alliance 3430 of the Second Age.
My guess is that Eomer lived in a very closed world with maybe the rare visit to Gondor. It seems he had never encountered halflings but knew of them from tales.
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ForestPark
Ossiriand
Jan 2 2013, 10:39pm
Post #23 of 29
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Thanks for Donkey Skin. Thought I knew a thing or two, guess just not as much as you.Hilarious
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Mahtion
Ossiriand
Jan 3 2013, 12:35am
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as most of what he heard seemed like long ago tales or mostly forgotten history. I am sure he never ventured into Mirkwood and had never been to Rivendell. I doubt any elves ventured to Rohan or even Gondor. It had been centuries since the Last Alliance 3430 of the Second Age.
My guess is that Eomer lived in a very closed world with maybe the rare visit to Gondor. It seems he had never encountered halflings but knew of them from tales.
Last time the Rohirrim had dealings with Elves was with Elladan and Elrohir who helped their ancestors clear the orcs from the region to be called Rohan. This will near the early middle of the Third age around 1150 I believe, not certain. I would imagine that legends of the founding of their realm is littered with the deeds of the fey people. In fact wasn't Elrohir who taught them to ride since he was one of the best horseman of the age? It is astounding that even Elrond's sons surpass the founding of a kingdom, the elves truly are eternal witnessing the flowing and ebbing of civilizations like leaves in the breeze.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 3 2013, 2:43am
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Not sure about that info...do you have a source?
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http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Rohan
The the extent the info above is correct the Rohirrim were always people of the horse.
Interestingly...
"... Despite a prejudice against the Elves that would carry up until the time of the War of the Ring, a protective mist seemed to come out of Lothlórien as the Éothéod journeyed south, rejuvenating horse and rider and shielding their approach from their enemies. ..."
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 3 2013, 2:45am)
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