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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 5:13pm
Post #1 of 27
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Thranduil a 'High Elf"?
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PJ’s Thranduil’s is extremely confusing and sloppy to me. I understand that Tolkien didn’t give us a complete backstory but there are several hints and clues he did leave us. It almost seems as if PJ totally rewrote Thranduil without any regard to the history of ME. How could this be?
I have read several interviews from multiple people stating Thranduil is 3000 years old and a High Elf.
His age would place his DOB to be approximately 3382 SA. 3000 – 2941 (2941 TA events of Hobbit) = 59. End of SA 3441 – 59 = 3382 So he was born after the founding of Gondor. ) Now I am sure he is not EXACTLY 3000 years old but it gives us a general idea.
503 FA (Years of the Sun) Doriath is sacked by Dwarves
590 FA (Years of the Sun) A small part of the Noldor and Sindar remain in Lindon or depart east and establish realms. ( so Thranduil’s father leaves and migrates to the Greenwood)
So my issues are this how is he a High Elf?
Per my research I found two definitions for High Elf –
1) High Elves, or Calaquendi, are those Elves who saw light of Two Trees of Valinor. In Tolkien’s letter 144 he states: 1- Eldar who heard the summons of the Valar 2- the Lesser elves did not answer it. Most of the Eldar heard the summons and passed over the sea: these were the High Elves, who became immensely enhanced in powers and knowledge. But part of them remained in the coast-lands of the North-West and these were the Sindar or Grey-elves.
The High Elves met in this book are Exiles: returned back over Sea to ME.
2) Per Robert Foster’s book Complete Guide to Middle-earth, Tolkien uses the term as a synonym for the Eldar. These were a subset of the original Elven population who accepted a summons to join the gods in their brightly lit country to the west. Those who refused and stayed in the as yet only starlit parts of the ancient world were called Dark Elves. This ethnic division corresponds to the main split in the history of Tolkien’s fictional languages between Quenya and Sindarin. High Elves spoke Quenya, or High-elven.
Thranduil being 3000 years old was not alive at the time of the summons and he never saw the light of the Two Trees. So how could he be a High Elf?
If we use definition # 2 then his father could be a High Elf so does it pass on from one generation to the next?
Per PJ’s vision there is a hierarchy in the Mirkwood realm. If the High Elf status is achieved by answering the summons and passed down from one generation to the next then it would be pretty easy to make an entire family a ‘High Elf’. Just send grandma on a boat! Woo-hoo we are all now High Elves!!
I personally thought the High Elf status equated to more knowledge and wisdom. (more in tune with definition # 1)
If we go by definition #1 Thranduil wasn’t alive to be a High Elf. Heck his father, Oropher, wasn’t a High Elf either. It clear states he is an elf who live in Doriath a Sindar elf in the Book of Lost Tales.
No matter how hard I bang it I can’t get this round peg into a square hole.  Any Thoughts?
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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malickfan
Mithlond
Feb 1 2014, 5:32pm
Post #2 of 27
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It probably boils down to PJ and Co not having the rights to the other material
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Which is sketchy at best when it comes to Thranduil's history, we don't even know if Jackson has read The Silmarillion or any of the other books (Phillipa Boyens stated last year she hadn't read The Sil in 25 years), so he probabably didn't feel bound to a backstory he couldn't really reference, in anycase it's very very easy to get the ins and outs of The Elven Hierarchy confused, so it could simply be a honest mistake, look at the History of Galadriel and Celeborn for instance-if they had the rights to that, how exactly would you choose the right version?
Since his backstory is so thin perhaps they didn't see any point in going into the finer detail-Jackson couldn't show any of Thranduil's canonical history, so perhaps they felt it was better for Lee Pace to have his own backstory to work off? Sure Thranduil's age and mannerisms don't entirely gel with Tolkien's character, but in the film he certainly has enough depth to be convincing on his own terms, and certainly seemed different to PJ's other Elves.
If it's not in your Appendices, maybe it's in mine?
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dormouse
Gondolin
Feb 1 2014, 5:38pm
Post #3 of 27
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I think maybe you're banging the peg too hard....
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Thranduil was a Sindarin elf - the Sindar being an offshoot of the Teleri who did not go to Aman, but who later came under the influence of Melian and Thingol. An 'Elf of the Twilight' then, but related to the High Elves.
In any case, though, what Thranduil is in the film is intended for the cinema audience. An Elven-king in his own realm, distinct from Elrond and, for those who remember them, Celeborn and Galadriel in Lorien. In the films they've made the point very powerfully that Thranduil's people are 'less wise and more dangerous', which is correct. I don't know who has referred to Thranduil as a High Elf, but if they weren't using the term strictly as you're using it and as it's used in the books but more loosely, in the sense of him being higher than the wood elves he rules over, then that's also correct.
The general audience needs to grasp those general points to get what Thranduil is about. They don't need to know all of the back history (which I find fascinating too, but I don't expect it all to be represented in the films).
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Retro315
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 5:59pm
Post #5 of 27
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The only reference to it I can recall at all is Tauriel referring to herself as a 'lowly Sylvan elf', which is a bit effacing, you know, the phrase 'lowly'.
A Sylvan elf is a Dark elf, whereas a Sindarin lord like Thranduil is a Grey elf. The only High (or basically, Light) elves east of the Misty Mountains are Galadriel and any of her folk that might still be with her, as Celeborn (and previously Amroth and Andir) were Sindarin lords, same as Thranduil, though apparently of no relation.
Anyway, the Woodland Realm was co-founded alongslide Lorien by Sindarin lords who basically hated the Noldor after Feanor's sons ruined Doriath, and Oropher or Thranduil wouldn't have been happy when Celeborn moved there later ... and brought Galadriel with him.
There's a subtext that until dire circumstances with the Ring Quest, Legolas's folks hadn't communicated with Lorien in a long time, since Mirkwood became murky and they moved north. So once again we have circumstances leading to Legolas breaking down certain ethnic barriers, the dominoes of Bilbo's original quest and the friendship with the Wood-elves leads to Legolas's loyalty to Frodo, to him going to Lorien, and eventually to Thranduil meeting Celeborn in person and a lot of years of "bad neighbors" being repaired.
Long story short: No love lost between other Sindar elves and Celeborn, who married a Noldor. In fact the very reason C. and G. didn't call themselves "king and queen of Lorien" is political, since it's a primarily Sindarin-anachronistic realm.
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 6:21pm
Post #6 of 27
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I am not really talking about how Thranduil comes accross on film - I personally thought it was VERY good but wayyyy to fast! I am talking more about what is being printed in the books and reference material for The Hobbit and DOS. Being a fan I like to read about how the films were made and all the extra goodies. This I am finding to be a bad idea when dealing with these films!
The interview I am talking about is here. In it she even refers to Legolas as a High Elf and states the High Elves come from over seas..WHAT???
The only thing I can think of that makes some sense is that they are not allowed to use the HOME esp The Book of Lost Tales. If that is the case then what she says makes some sense and 'fits'. But then you have his age issue...and there is NO way Thranduil is 3000 years old IF he is a High Elf. Which is fine but then why on ME did they make him 3000 years old?
QUESTION: Can you tell us about Thranduil, played by Lee Pace, and what makes him different from other Elf Lords?
PHILIPPA BOYENS: Thranduil is different. He is the father of Legolas and he resides in Mirkwood, which is a pretty dangerous place. The Elves of Mirkwood are described in the book as ‘less wise and more dangerous’ than other Elves—not less wise as in stupid, but perhaps more reckless, which adds to their danger. They’re more shut off from the rest of the world.
Thranduil is a High Elf, so he is actually very similar to Galadriel and Elrond, the other Elf Lords that we meet in The Hobbit films. But he’s different. The difference being—and here’s an interesting piece of trivia—he fought in The Last Alliance, the battle that opens The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, the battle that you see Elrond fighting, when Isildur takes the Ring from Sauron. We know from the appendices of The Lord of the Rings that Thranduil was part of that. He’s very much a part of this world. But after The Last Alliance and the fall of Sauron, he didn’t leave Middle-earth, he stayed in Middle-earth and became the Elvenking, over a race of other Elves called Silvan Elves. They’re the Wood-elves of Mirkwood, which was called The Greenwood at that time.
What’s interesting about that is there is a kind hierarchy among the Elves of Mirkwood. There are the High Elves, which are Thranduil and Legolas, and then there are the more lowly, more earthy Elves, the Silvan Elves. Tauriel is a Silvan Elf. She’s very much an Elf of Middle-earth, whereas the High Elves have come from somewhere else across the seas, and they are slightly more ethereal.
Thranduil was a very hard character to cast. He’s the father of Legolas, so he’s got to be a fairly beautiful-looking Elf. We also needed the stillness, grace and sense of power that Elves possess, that sense of having lived a long time in the world, and of being separate from the other races. There’s always that distance between the Elves and the other races. Not so much with Legolas and Tauriel, because they engage with the world, but there is a sense with Elves such as Thranduil that they are separate from the goings on in the rest of the world.
When we meet him, Thranduil has already made the decision many years ago to isolate his people to protect them; to not engage with the rest of the world or the rise and fall of the fortunes of other races outside his borders. He has shut himself off. This is how he lives. To do this, he has created quite a strict, closed-off world around himself. His rule is law.
We needed to find an actor who could play this character with that sense of iciness, dispassion and ruthlessness. But we also knew that he’s not evil. He’s ultimately still good.
It was very hard to find someone who can bring all that status to the character that Thranduil requires, but yet still engage the audience, still be interesting and able to draw us into his world, how he’s thinking and what he’s feeling. He’s sympathetic in a strange way.
That was a very difficult role to cast. On the way back from England on our casting trip in 2010, we stopped in New York for one reason and one reason only, and that was to meet with Lee Pace. He was the only person we were meeting with in New York at that time. We met with him and by the time he left, we knew we’d found Thranduil.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 6:58pm
Post #7 of 27
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I also don't like the way they made the Silvan elves 'lowly'. I really don't think this was the 'plan'.
The studios wanted a 'love triangle' and so they needed SOME reason why Legolas couldn't be with Tauriel and that was the only way they could do it. (I come to this after reading several interviews with Evang stating the 'love triangle' was tossed on her during pick ups and she was PROMISED when she signed on that this wouldn't happen. )
I have no issues with Tauriel but I think this 'love triangle' was a disaster!! It wasn’t needed.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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Plurmo
Nargothrond
Feb 1 2014, 7:01pm
Post #8 of 27
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A thousand years imbibed in Dorwinion wine makes a high elf too.//
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CurseOfFeanor
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 7:02pm
Post #9 of 27
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that was a good one 
Obsessed with the Silmarillion, book purist & Thranduil junkie in one person ;)
Serving Middle-Earth since 1995
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Gurtholfin
Nevrast
Feb 1 2014, 7:05pm
Post #10 of 27
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...in the First Age before Doriath's fall.
He didn't come from "over the seas" as Boyens may have thought. Still, he'd be higher (wiser) than a typical sylvan elf.
Why be bound by canon though PJ. Make it your own story.
(This post was edited by Gurtholfin on Feb 1 2014, 7:08pm)
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 7:12pm
Post #11 of 27
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This is one thing that I wonder about. Are the descendants of the Dark Elves / Lesser Elves also Dark / Lesser elves? The children were never given the summons so how could they not answer it?
I ask this because it may have some importance. If you read Tolkien’s letter 154 he states this:
‘But the promise made to the Eldar (the High elves - not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle –earth to paradise ) for their suffering in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle – earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West..
Now from that it looks as if the Dark / Lesser elves are not allowed to leave Middle – earth and take the Straight Road. Which for the first ones it make sense – they chose not to so why would they change their mind. But what about their children…what is their fate? Are they able to leave Middle- Earth?
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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dormouse
Gondolin
Feb 1 2014, 7:14pm
Post #12 of 27
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There are several things in that interview that are not as written by Tolkien. Neither Thranduil nor Legolas came back from Aman with the exiles, so they're not High Elves in that sense - tho' as Sindar they are closely related to the Teleri.
You probably won't agree, but I would qualify this by saying that in an interview she isn't delivering a discourse on the complexities of Tolkien's elves. It's a simplified version, for the understanding of the interviewer and the audience, and in a spoken interview it's all too easy to mis-say something which you would put in a completely different way if you were writing and had time to think more carefully and check the facts. As you yourself point out, she also has to avoid straying too deeply into material that isn't covered by the film rights.
As for the age business, it seems to me that that is proving one of the hardest issues for the film adaptation. Fine on the printed page, but when you're having to cast ordinary human beings as characters who might be 100 or 1000 or several thousand years old the figures do start to blur. I've been reading Tolkien over forty years and I couldn't tell you how old any of the elves is - or the half-elven. I'd have to look it up. There's no mention of 3000 in this interview but I'm sure you're right and it has been mentioned. Maybe by someone like me - totally confused by numbers!
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 7:14pm
Post #13 of 27
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Send me some of that wine!!!!  PLEASE!!!!!!
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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Eleniel
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2014, 7:35pm
Post #14 of 27
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Lee Pace himself has quoted Thranduil as being 3000 years-old in at least 2 interviews I've read...
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There's no mention of 3000 in this interview but I'm sure you're right and it has been mentioned. Maybe by someone like me - totally confused by numbers!
This is one of them... http://thorinoakenshield.net/...-pace-in-f-magazine/
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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dormouse
Gondolin
Feb 1 2014, 7:48pm
Post #15 of 27
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.. as I say, I don't doubt that they've said it. Just wonder how precise it's meant to be - speaking as someone for whom numbers tend to blur. It's more important to me to know that he has been around an inconceivably long time and doesn't age or die, though he can be killed.
I would mind very much if they denied the immortality of the elves - or went too far in the other direction and made it impossible to kill them. I'm afraid I can't attach much importance the the figures they quote.
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Elthir
Hithlum
Feb 1 2014, 8:04pm
Post #16 of 27
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Yes there seems to be basically two definitions of High Elf: one definition [and the one seemingly more frequently employed by Tolkien] is equivalent to Tareldar -- and with respect to Middle-earth at least, the Tareldar are the returned Noldor.
Another use of the term 'High Elves' is basically equivalent to Eldar however, in comparison to non-Eldarin Elves [as we see in the letter you referred to for example]. Thranduil is certainly an Elda so he is a High Elf in this sense. Or in other words, the Sindar of Middle-earth are also High Elves when compared to the 'East-elves'.
I'm not sure if this is merely an 'external' problem [Tolkien not being consistent] or a purposed internal variation, as it's not that unusual for a term to have different applications, or for its definition to change even: Eldar for example, originally included all Elves, then was narrowed to refer to: Elves that passed Over the Sea plus the Sindar only [thus equivalent to West Elves].
When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor Frodo knew these were 'High Elves' seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. That's because [if I read the signs rightly] when Tolkien wrote the passage the name Elbereth was 'Noldorin' not Sindarin...
... after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario he still has Frodo say that these are High Elves as if Sindarin 'Elbereth' is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark but in my opinion it still works. Of course Gildor and Company still turn out to be Exiles [Noldor] in any case, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.
The problem there was that yet another statement suggests there are not now many High Elves left in Middle-earth... thus easier said of the Noldor rather than all of the Eldar still left in Middle-earth [Noldor and Sindar combined].
Heh, not the simplest of scenarios 
But I still think it's not necessarily wrong to call Thranduil a High Elf, technically speaking.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 1 2014, 8:07pm)
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Eleniel
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2014, 8:06pm
Post #17 of 27
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Canocially, Thranduil (if it could be confirmed he was born in the FA during Doriath)
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...would actually be older than Elrond. But since Weaving is considerably older than Pace, that would have been a little problem - unless one tries to explain it away on Elrond being Half-Elven, of course. Although, introducing the "Elven glamour" element as they have would have been another way around it!
Still 3000 is a nice round figure and it makes it easy for the general audience to understand that his Fabulousness is sooo much older and wiser than baby Tauriel...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Elthir
Hithlum
Feb 1 2014, 8:27pm
Post #18 of 27
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[as we see in the letter you referred to for example].
... as it might be another letter actually; but I'm fairly certain there's at least one letter concerning this usage, and a possible reference in Appendix B.
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Thranderz
Nargothrond
Feb 1 2014, 8:41pm
Post #19 of 27
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that in the film neither his age or origin are mentioned, so it isn't a big deal if they mention it in an interview. 
I simply walked into Mordor.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Feb 1 2014, 9:25pm
Post #20 of 27
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Thranduil is a High Elf to the extent that he is counted among the Eldar.
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Of course, he never left Middle-earth or saw the Undying Lands unless it was in Fourth Age. As a ruler, Thranduil might have been more concerned with bloodlines than most Sindar. The problem with his history is that most of it was published after Tolkien's death; we don't know if JRRT would have made any alterations if he had overseen the publication of his essay "The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves" that appeared in Unfinished Tales.
If we assume that it is canon that Thranduil was born before the fall of Doriath then he was likely at least 200 years old (give or take 50 years) at the end of the First Age. It's probably safe to say that Thranduil was over 6500 years old at the time of the Quest of Erebor. Since there is no mention of Legolas in the legendarium prior to the Third Age, I tend to assume that he was not born until after Thranduil succeeded his father Oropher as ruler of the Elves of Greenwood.
As I've stated before, I really wish that Tolkien had left us a genealogical table for the Sindar rulers of the Mirkwood Elves.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 1 2014, 9:31pm)
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 9:46pm
Post #21 of 27
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The age issue factors in several times but before I get into that let me say this. I am a Tolkien fan. I have read the books several times. Read all the HOME. Read Lost Tales and numerous Tolkien references. I love ME so much I am always eager to read anything about ME. I never want the story to end.
I am also a PJ fan. I was worried at first to watch LOTR but thought PJ did a fantastic job. ME and characters I had made in my mind was now in front of me so real I could almost touch them.
I own all the DVDs and most of the books about making the movies. (Still working on that)
I am trying very hard to like the Hobbit. The first movie I didn’t have too much trouble with…some of the ‘bathroom’ humor was a bit of a turn off but I could chuck it up to “well the Hobbit IS supposed to be a children’s book!” I can live with it. Now DOS…I felt things were added that didn’t need to be and it was made more to please the studios and action hungry fans more than the Tolkien fans. So much attention to detail was put into the LOTR and I hate to say it…I feel there has been a lack of attention to story details in DOS. (more attention and energy on CGI and frame speed than the basics) The dots don’t connect…Now having said that – I will own all the Hobbit DVDs, books, and will watch the movies etc..
That being said I of course bought the design books from Weta and read them hungry for more information/ insights on my ME world!! It is from these adventures I have run amok.
1) Thranduil – A) High elf? He is too young to be a High Elf (if you use definition #1) B)His age – 3000 years old…ok…but he is suppose to be a great warrior who has battled Dragons…ok…when?? Where?? At 3000 years of age he has missed most of the great battles and dragons…he has only been in the Last Alliance – which don’t get me wrong it was a humdinger but lots of elves were in that too and they don’t have the ‘great warrior’ title. There are also no references to dragons being there. So which beast gave Thranduil that scar and for what purpose did Thranduil face the beast? C) There are several references that Thranduil is fading…WHAT? While 3000 years is old to you and I to an elf he is young. True he doesn’t have a ring of power but I have a hard time swallowing a 3000 year old elf is fading. (I believe they have interpreted Thranduil’s hall incorrectly. I believe this is a war tactical strategy (and a good one) vs fading!)
2) Hair length – they mention that Thranduil’s hair is longer than Legolas’ because he is older. Okay..got it! Then they make Tauriel’s hair longer than Galadriel’s! *Bangs head on wall*
Sadly, these are just a couple of examples. Things just don’t fit and while they seem little at first it seems the more I read the more I find! (I guess I should stop reading!!! LOL!)
I do not mind PJ making some things up and putting his own twist on it as long as it works. As long as it follows the ‘Tolkien rules’ so to speak. I mean in interview after interview they talk about how PJ knows Tolkien and ME yet we see mistake after mistake with timelines and customs. Some I can turn a blind eye to and some I find it hard to. I find myself going back to my books after reading something from Weta/ PJ to see if I am going crazy just to find no I remembered it correctly.
Overall are these life changing? Nope…but inquiring minds want to know!
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Feb 1 2014, 9:48pm
Post #22 of 27
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Every discussion I've seen of this issue comes down to the fact that, as the descendants of Elrond and Elros inherit the consequence of their choice, the descendents of the Moriquendi do as well. The Elves that remain in ME will eventually "fade" (which is why we do not see them today).
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Dragonrnbw
Ossiriand
Feb 1 2014, 10:03pm
Post #23 of 27
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Thanks! That is interesting…I did not think to look at it that way. Not trying to argue or anything…I love intelligent conversation about ME - I remember coming across this:
“Tolkien also wrote that Legolas founded an elf colony in Ithilien during King Elessar’s reign in the Fourth Age, and that the elves there assisted in the rebuilding of Gondor. They primarily resided in southern Ithilien, along the shores of the Anduin. After Elessar's death in 120 F.A., Legolas built a ship and sailed to Valinor and, eventually, all of the elves in Ithilien followed him. It is also implied that Elves continued to dwell at the Grey Havens, at least for a certain period.”
I am not sure where this is written that the elves in Ithilien followed Legolas ( I personally don’t remember reading it in a book) but if it was then that would put a hiccup in that theory. If I remember correctly Legolas asked his father to allow him to take some elves from the woodland realm to start the colony. If they went West then they were not bound by their ancestor’s decision.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for thou are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
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Rowan Greene
Menegroth
Feb 1 2014, 10:07pm
Post #24 of 27
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As in I sit and ponder all things ME until I drive even myself crazy. It's a healthy obsession though!
And no matter how old Thranduil is--3,000 or 6,500 or somewhere in between--he's one mesmerizing and complex Elvenking!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Feb 2 2014, 12:19am
Post #25 of 27
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I think someone in the script-writing has read the Silmarillion
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Because I do see subtle references to it throughout the films.
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