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Bishop
Mithlond
May 20 2015, 7:33pm
Post #1 of 28
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Thorin's and Bilbo's Relationship
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How do people feel about how this relationship was ultimately portrayed over the course of the three films?
I see it as a bit of a mixed bag, with the best moments between them occurring in BOTFA. Here are some quick thoughts on it.
AUJ - I don't really understand Thorin's incessant need to come down so hard on Bilbo. It's funny when he first makes fun of Bilbo being more like a grocer. But then he continuously and scornfully attacks Bilbo in a way that doesn't seem warranted. For example, after they are attacked by mountain sized rock monsters throwing giant boulders at them, he gets mad at Bilbo? This anger seems awfully misplaced at this point! He accuses Bilbo of being a burden. Has Bilbo been a huge burden really? I guess what I don't understand is why all the other Dwarves take to Bilbo but not Thorin, who seems to really dislike him. Is there are logical reason for this and is it represented well in the film?
DOS - It is clear that Thorin trusts Bilbo a bit more now, but I feel like that happy, huggy friendship that is established at the end of AUJ is nowhere to be found. I'm perfectly willing to accept that there aren't many moments that give them good opportunity to express this, but still Thorin seems to have returned to his colder self. I mean, he doesn't even give Bilbo a pat on the back after he single-handedly finds the keyhole on the secret door. By the time we get to Thorin holding Bilbo at sword point that gesture of respect and friendship is, as Thorin would say, LONG gone. I think just one intimate, personal conversation between them somewhere along the journey in DOS would have been really helpful in maintaining the friendship on a certain level.
BOTFA - As few as they are, I think Thorin and Bilbo share the best moments together in this film. The acorn scene is probably my favorite scene in the entire trilogy. I buy 100% that Thorin, even conflicted as he is, truly feels a deep friendship and kinship with Bilbo in this moment. As things start to slip for Thorin, he continuously falls back on his trust of the Hobbit. And then finally when he realizes he's been "betrayed" by Bilbo, there is a level of sorrow and confusion in Armitage's performance that I found staggering. Of course the scene where is says goodbye to Bilbo is incredible.
So in essence I feel that the friendship ended in the right place, strongly and convincingly depicted in BOTFA. But it had some bumps along the way that I think could have used some development.
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Dcole4
Nargothrond
May 20 2015, 8:17pm
Post #2 of 28
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The main issue with DOS is that the relationship b/w Bilbo and Thorin isn't nearly as defined as it is in AUJ and BOTFA. It is really the problem that makes the film lack a backbone. A large issue was that the first half of the movie is comprised of footage in which Thorin was originally still "angry" at Bilbo, it wasn't until reshoots that the reconciliation pushed this earlier in AUJ. They forgot however to rebuild that relationship, what was needed in DOS is 2-4 moments in which we saw that relationship build. As you mention, there is no acknowledgement of what came in AUJ, so by the time the end comes around, it doesn't hold any punch. A moment before they hit the road from Beorn's house would have been helpful. Perhaps another moment after the barrel sequence and then again at the hidden door, would have gone a long way to build up their friendship so that when he does block the path with his sword, the audience would feel it. As it stands the film just feels messy because this relationship isn't defined and the events of the story aren't having an effect on their relationship. So we're essentially watching a cast of unchanged characters move from point A to B until the end, which is boring. It's too bad they didn't take the extra time added to shoot more Thorin/Bilbo scenes, rather than splinter the story further in unnecessary directions.
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shadowdog
Nargothrond
May 20 2015, 8:20pm
Post #3 of 28
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I interpreted the relationship
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as conflicted. Thorin wasn't willing to accept Bilbo into the company at first but only did so because Gandalf insisted. He doubted Bilbo throughout the early part of the journey as not really belonging and not being dedicated to their quest as he saw Bilbo seem to be more and more interested in returning home. As they got to the end of the quest, his short thaw toward Bilbo was overcome by his growing dragon sickness.
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RosieLass
Doriath
May 20 2015, 8:47pm
Post #4 of 28
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The hug-fest at the end of AUJ was misplaced.
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It was too early in the story for such a complete reconciliation. A grudging "thank you" would have been more appropriate at that point.
"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
May 20 2015, 8:52pm
Post #5 of 28
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I found Thorin more likeable in the movies so therefore I could enjoy the relationship between Thorin and Bilbo a little easier. Though he was a bit... *unpleasant* to put it nicely. Especially during AUJ he kept going on and on about how useless Bilbo was to the point where it felt like he was behaving like a teenager 
But conflicted yes. That's a good way to describe it. A painful one really. Seeing as yes they make up for the mistakes done before he dies, but still he dies. So it's incredibly bittersweet.
I enjoyed the relationship and how it went in BotfA, but after amount of intense Bagginshield shipping it has kind of been ruined for me. It shouldn't, but it has and it's a pity. Why do people see sexual tension everywhere when it's a friendship? Either way I don't mean to offend anyone with this. Feel free to ship whatever you want. I just don't.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
May 20 2015, 8:58pm
Post #6 of 28
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To be fair, that scene in AUJ where Thorin says "He's been lost every since he came...he has no place amongst us" happened immediately after Thorin slipped while saving Bilbo. No, it wasn't fair or warranted, but to me it's understandable and helps set up the ending scene on the Carrock where Thorin has to literally eat his words. The thing about Thorin in AUJ is that his men ALWAYS came first - even Bilbo. The best demo being his standing on the rock during the Warg chase and waiting until everyone was safe before jumping down.
I never had a problem with their relationship in DOS. Thorin was still a grumpy, impatient dwarf. Notice that he left Bofur behind, and even his own nephew, because now he's feeling a sense of urgency. They are running out of time, and he knows it! However, I think the trust established in AUJ is fully displayed by his reliance on Bilbo. He sends Bilbo to scout for the enemy at the beginning of DOS, he sends Bilbo across the enchanted stream first, and also is the first one to follow him. After mouthing off to Thranduil he declares that a deal was "not our only hope," meaning to me that he expects Bilbo to come to his aid, which of course happens. And when Dwalin questions his plan, Bilbo turns to Thorin who backs him up. And after Bilbo falls through the trap door Thorin says "Well done, Master Baggins." But then when they get to Erebor Thorin starts to lose it, possibly due to feeling the early effects of the Dragon sickness. He has to be reminded by Balin that "his name is Bilbo." After that (and after the sword threat), he calls him Bilbo, tells him to follow Balin, relies on him to help set the trap, and encourages him to keep going. No, I think their relationship is fine, and everything is set up for the confrontation/betrayal in BOTFA.
So much happened in BOTFA, and I think the movie suffered most from the insistence on cutting the runtime down to 144 minutes, don't get me started on THAT. Yeah, the best scenes are there, the acorn scene, the mithreal shirt, and "Throw him from the ramparts!" And then when Bilbo first arrives on Ravenhill, after all that, to warn Thorin. Thorin looks surprised, but he certainly doesn't reject the Hobbit. He believes him and accepts that they do need to leave. I am, of course, still in denial over that ending so I can't talk about it. Peter Jackson sure knows how to cast a movie, and he couldn't have done any better than Richard and Martin, oh, the feels!
So to answer your question, I feel their relationship progressed throughout all three movies in a way that was consistent with the original story as well as PJ's alterations, so I'm pretty satisfied with it. Also, not everyone was a fan of that hugging at the Carrock scene - just sayin'.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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arithmancer
Hithlum
May 20 2015, 9:00pm
Post #7 of 28
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I really loved the way this relationship was developed in AUJ; it was my favorite thing about the movie (and strangely it made me like Thorin more than I had in the books, where Bilbo is and alway was my favorite.) I'll try to explain how the movie seemed to me.
I felt Thorin only included Bilbo because Gandalf insisted on this. While (within the filmverse) I think the idea of a burglar made sense to Thorin as well, I think Thorin probably had an actual burglar, and a Man with weapons skills and some woodcraft, in mind for the role and was taken aback by the idea of using a Hobbit. Especially one who had no experience with burgling, fighting, or long quests.
Having however permitted Gandalf to have his way, I felt he was conflicted. He did not see Bilbo's worth, but did consider himself honor-bound to treat Bilbo as another member of his Company. So for example, he did not let the Trolls tear him apart, and he personally risked himself to effect Bilbo's rescue from a fall to his death in the Stone Giant scene you reference.
At the same time, because of his initial prejudice he blamed Bilbo for the Trolls, and for his lack of mountaineering skills, in those incidents. In the former incident he kept his criticism mild (and expressed it to Gandalf rather than Bilbo). In the second I felt he was more harsh because he was emotionally less in control of himself - he was still recovering from the series of emotional shocks fear that one of his nephews was crushed by the Giant, followed by his own near-death experience, when he slipped after helping Bilbo back onto the ledge.
The scene in which Bilbo tries to sneak home (and his later disappearance in the Goblin Caves) then led Thorin to further dismiss Bilbo. Only, of course, to be proven oh so wrong when Bilbo came back, gave his lovely speech about home, and proceeded to save the wounded Thorin from Azog's henchman in the scene that followed.
For me, Thorin's speech in the Carrock summed this up. He repeated all the various (negative, and unfair) things he had believed about Bilbo, and apologized for having been so wrong.
I agree the faster pace of DoS gave fewer opportunities for character interactions, but personally I did not sense a cooling between Bilbo and Thorin. I would not have said he trusts Bilbo "a bit more", but that he trusts him implicitly/completely, as much as he trusts Balin, Dwalin, Fili, or Kili (toerh characters with whim he is shown to be close IMO). For example, Thorin instantly orders the Dwarves to follow Bilbo's plan without knowing what it is, in the wine cellar. The scenes at the Mountain I think are less about a cooling there, and more about the growing of his obsession/ sickness regarding the Arkenstone. His dealings with Fili and Kili in Laketown could be seen as another early harbinger of the dragon sickness. Yet in the climax of the film, the Smaug chase sequence - he keeps Bilbo close, keeps an eye on him, and delegates an important task (starting the water) to him.
Bo5A - well, you are probably not surprised I see it your way here. :D The difference for me is that I walked out of AUJ feeling pretty confident that this is how I would feel at the end of Bo5A. I felt the writing of AUJ was very much done with the end in mind.
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arithmancer
Hithlum
May 20 2015, 9:32pm
Post #8 of 28
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But the Bagginshield fans do make such pretty gifs and graphics! I just admire them, and ignore any accompanying commentary. :D
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Ilmatar
Nargothrond
May 20 2015, 9:54pm
Post #9 of 28
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I agree that the hug was quite surprising (as it was for Bilbo as well), but I don't see it as a complete reconciliation as much as a spontaneous gesture from Thorin, overtaken by emotion having just realized that the hobbit he had doubted and dismissed had actually acted with great courage and endangered his own life while saving Thorin's. Thorin had already been touched by Bilbo's reasoning for attending the quest, right after the goblin caves, so a more positive attitude towards him may have arisen at that moment. It doesn't necessarily mean that from that point onwards Thorin would never doubt anything Bilbo did, or always see him in a completely different light.
Someone mentioned somewhere - probably many someones - that there were small signs of developing trust and friendship after that, like Thorin placing his trust in Bilbo while held prisoner in Mirkwood cells ("Not our only hope"), holding the barrels in place while waiting for Bilbo when escaping etc. If the movies had been longer and/or slower in pace, there could have been more time for character moments and interactions.
(Edit: I was away for a while and many people have posted in the meantime, so there are some similarities in comments, re: "Not our only hope" etc.)
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on May 20 2015, 9:58pm)
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
May 20 2015, 9:56pm
Post #10 of 28
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Bilbo and Thorinīs relationship was one of the things I was completely satisfied with all the way
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As I saw it the relationship was developed and characterized very consistently and with a lot of thought put into it: just look at all the nuances in Thorinīs distrust of Bilbo in AUJ for instance. I have little to add to arithmancerīs excellent description of their relationship in AUJ and DoS.
In BotfA you see the set up and themes from AUJ being excellently reflected in "the acorn scene", how Bilbo sets off to warn Thorin and of course the parting scene. In the acorn scene you see the importance of home and Bilboīs sense of belonging repeated, re his speech about home in AUJ. Thorinīs death scene mirrors the final part of AUJ with the coming of the eagles, only this time Thorin is beyond saving and healing.
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Laineth
Menegroth
May 20 2015, 10:40pm
Post #11 of 28
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have an answer for you. I like Bagginshield, but it's not one of my OTPs.
The following is just my personal opinion and comes from personal experiences, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt. All healthy relationships, no matter their type, have the same core of strong friendship. The difference lies in sexual attraction. There is also this misconception in society that only romantic or parental love can be deep and unconditional. Obviously, that's untrue.
I think it comes down to potential, in any shipping situation. They have the foundation. What if they were more?
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arithmancer
Hithlum
May 21 2015, 12:12am
Post #13 of 28
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I also loved the way Thorin's final words to Bilbo mirrored Bilbo's speech about home in AUJ. Thorin was obviously affected by it, as all those months later he still remembered that when Bilbo thinks of home, he misses his books and his armchair! Great scene...
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Bombadil
Gondolin
May 21 2015, 12:54am
Post #14 of 28
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Bomby would hug someone who just saved my Life?
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Also, the Significance of the ACORN Symbol
on our Boxed EE of AUJ, NOW means Something!
Couldn't figure why that symbol was there 2 years ago.
NOW we know.
Sorta brings the 3 Boxed sets full circle?
DoS has the Symbol of the Arkenstone over the Hidden Door
where Gloin reads the Dwarfish once they enter the Mountain...
SSOoo..what do you All think MIGHT be on the Back of
Our NEXT BOXED set..?
Don't know..
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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arithmancer
Hithlum
May 21 2015, 1:58am
Post #15 of 28
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...Bilbo's brass buttons! The ones that flew off his waistcoat when he squeezed through the narrow cave opening to escape Gollum, were embossed with an acorn symbol just like it.
Not that I object to the addition of even more meaning to this symbol in Bo5A. That was one of my favorite scenes.
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
May 21 2015, 2:39am
Post #16 of 28
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At the same time, because of his initial prejudice he blamed Bilbo for the Trolls, and for his lack of mountaineering skills, in those incidents.
I think that's a really big part of his attitude towards Bilbo in AUJ. It didn't really matter what Bilbo did (at first), Thorin just didn't have any faith in him from the start and was too stubborn to let go of that initial impression. Right up to the moment on the Carrock, Thorin still struggled to admit he was wrong.
And I think Thorin was also just taking out some of his anger on Bilbo after the Stone Giant incident. Before they left, he overheard Elrond bringing up his family's history with dragon sickness. Thorin probably felt a sense of shame in that moment and was perhaps embarrassed that Bilbo of all people was right there to hear it too.
Overall I was really happy with how their relationship was handled, but I think DoS definitely could have used more scenes with the two of them interacting. I think the problem was that their arc was originally written to be told over two movies instead of three. And when pick-ups were shot, they focused too much on fleshing out the elves, Lake-town, and other subplots rather than making sure Bilbo and the dwarves had consistent screentime and development.
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MEM
Lindon
May 21 2015, 3:25am
Post #17 of 28
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I quite liked the relationship arc they had between these two characters. It helped give a soul to the films. I do think BOTFA is my favorite on this front, because there were so many great scenes between them.
DOS was lacking in this respect, but the first half didn't seem to have much chance for interaction. I like the second half of DOS better than the first, and I think that's part of it (I can't remember if it's on the EE or theatrical, as I only own the EE of DOS, where it's Bilbo who vouches for Thorin in Dale, and he seems quite moved by that).
I initially didn't quite understand why Thorin was so annoyed at Bilbo in AUJ. (There was another thread here recently that in another book - Unfinished Tales, I think - Tolkien had meant for Thorin to be quite doubtful and mistrustful of Bilbo, which isn't in the Hobbit book but they did bring out in AUJ). Especially that scene with the rock giants where Thorin really rips into Bilbo, for no reason at all. In the EE, there is that odd scene in Rivendell where Bilbo's eavesdropping on Gandalf and Elrond, and he looks over his shoulder to see that Thorin's been eavesdropping, too. But what they're hearing is the history of madness in Thorin's family, and I wonder if Thorin just got defensive about it, now that Bilbo knows this about him, and combined with the shock of nearly dying on that cliff, it just came out in a harsh rant. It does set up the scene down the hill really well, though - Bilbo's speech is one of my favorite moments in the films, as well as that hug/reconciliation scene. I also think that hug/apology scene was needed, because it echoes Thorin's apology while he's dying.
As for FFN or AO3, I wish there was a "canon-applicable" option, heh.
The main issue with DOS is that the relationship b/w Bilbo and Thorin isn't nearly as defined as it is in AUJ and BOTFA. It is really the problem that makes the film lack a backbone. A large issue was that the first half of the movie is comprised of footage in which Thorin was originally still "angry" at Bilbo, it wasn't until reshoots that the reconciliation pushed this earlier in AUJ. They forgot however to rebuild that relationship, what was needed in DOS is 2-4 moments in which we saw that relationship build. [..]
I'd never known that. What was the original ending to AUJ like, if they hadn't had a bit of reconciliation then?
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I'm a Middle-Earth Munchkin.
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
May 21 2015, 4:11am
Post #18 of 28
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Well the original ending when it was two movies was when Bard finds them along the river. I can't remember the exact details, but the Carrock scene was originally going to have Thorin see Erebor from a distance and say something like "I never thought I'd see this sight again," which is basically what happens in the finished film minus the hug. I'm not sure where Thorin's respect for Bilbo was supposed to become readily apparent in the original script. Maybe it would have been after the barrel escape. I can't remember hearing anything specific about how that was suppose to play out before the three film split.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
May 21 2015, 6:28am
Post #19 of 28
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DOS EE Bilbo answers for Thorin infront the master of laketown
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That is a good moment
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Avandel
Gondolin
May 21 2015, 6:29am
Post #20 of 28
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Agreed re pretty graphics from shippers
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When I first started tripping over "shipper grunge" I couldn't begin to understand WHY.
But I thought the TV Tropes site had a good, and IMO accurate explanation - that it is human nature to want to see those we care about bonded, either to ourselves or another - and re the shippers, the sex of those involved is irrelevant. It's the pairing that matters.
E.g. getting shipped is a compliment from fans. It can get tiresome, but I try to scrolling on some web sites, as there can be some nice images in among the weeds.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
May 21 2015, 6:46am
Post #21 of 28
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That was a Key Turning Point well played...
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since the Master needed a witness
that was NOT a Dwarve.
The smallest guy in the Room stood TALL in the Eyes of Thorin
there.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
May 21 2015, 2:15pm
Post #22 of 28
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Thorin and Bilboīs relationship is the best part of the films ( and I love many things in the films).
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Avandel
Gondolin
May 21 2015, 2:57pm
Post #23 of 28
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I completely love Thorin and Bilbo's relationship as played by these two superb actors. Re the AUJ end scene, I always have and still do think the hug and Thorin's reaction is perfection - especially thinking in terms of Thorin being a DWARF, a hardened warrior, and a being who has suffered much, carries much, and has little reason apparently to have faith in any other race "this, Master Baggins, is the world of men..."
Plus assuming the Nordic/Viking warrior influence re the depiction of dwarves - e.g. hard fighters, capable of deep and fierce feeling - and what Bilbo does, after all, is huge. Thorin's too much of a warrior himself not to know how suicidal Bilbo's defending him was.
But agree with:
Someone mentioned somewhere - probably many someones - that there were small signs of developing trust and friendship after that, like Thorin placing his trust in Bilbo while held prisoner in Mirkwood cells ("Not our only hope"), holding the barrels in place while waiting for Bilbo when escaping etc. If the movies had been longer and/or slower in pace, there could have been more time for character moments and interactions.
IMO thanks to a tight editing *sigh* except for Thorin overhearing Bilbo wanting to leave, we never see IMO Bilbo being a "fail" while travelling tho, really, in AUJ, except the stone giant scene. Never see Thorin and Bilbo have any kind of quiet conversation later showing them just being friends, except for the acorn scene, I guess.
So I think it says much positive about the actors and script/direction that so much can be interpolated re the character relationships, but for me it just goes back to wishing PJ had devoted just a few minutes to Company relationships, here and there, over the three movies. A "sitting around the night fire talking scene", or something. Thorin talking about what Erebor had been like before the fall, or Fili or Kili joking with Bilbo and the others, or Bifur carving some beautiful toy.
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Ilmatar
Nargothrond
May 21 2015, 3:44pm
Post #24 of 28
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With this - it just didn't form into thoughts and sentences while posting, but yes, agreeing in regards to Thorin's character, and especially good point on emphasizing the warrior mentality:
I always have and still do think the hug and Thorin's reaction is perfection - especially thinking in terms of Thorin being a DWARF, a hardened warrior, and a being who has suffered much, carries much, and has little reason apparently to have faith in any other race "this, Master Baggins, is the world of men..."
I was just surprised by the hug when I first saw it, as just like Bilbo I had not expected it, but as I tried to convey in the post when it did happen it felt natural and made sense to me.
I would not mind an hour (or a few...) more of material in the EE, if it was character development and interactions, instead of more fighting... (And it seems that many fans have been missing just the kind of everyday scenes you mention, because the other topic of this thread - fan fiction - for what I have seen, is filled with possible scenarios of "what happened in between the action scenes", with emphasis on character interactions - shipping or not.)
Two takes on the hug:
The general, "canon" version...
And the fanfic POV  :
"wait what's that sound in the distance..."
"the fanfic writers screaming, we broke them"
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on May 21 2015, 3:46pm)
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Pandallo
Ossiriand
May 21 2015, 5:09pm
Post #25 of 28
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Thorin and Bilbo in the original script....
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Well the original ending when it was two movies was when Bard finds them along the river. I can't remember the exact details, but the Carrock scene was originally going to have Thorin see Erebor from a distance and say something like "I never thought I'd see this sight again," which is basically what happens in the finished film minus the hug. I'm not sure where Thorin's respect for Bilbo was supposed to become readily apparent in the original script. Maybe it would have been after the barrel escape. I can't remember hearing anything specific about how that was suppose to play out before the three film split.
i feel the original may not have had a bonding relationship between Bilbo and Thorin, at all. Remember the "never go East" scene from DoS? It's quite likely from the original script that was shelved because it no longer fit with Bilbo's fondness for the Dwarves and his budding friendship with Thorin.
I also think the "When faced with death, what can anyone do?!" line from the third movies trailers may have been Bilbo's initial reason for giving the Arkenstone to Bard instead of a desire to save Thorin and the others.
It is my belief that these pickup times likely included a lot more of the Thorin and Bilbo's scenes being filmed that were put into the movie than otherwise. Originally Thorin and Bilbo may have been comfortably distant, like the book versions of them.
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