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chauvelin2000
Nevrast
Feb 17 2015, 9:43pm
Post #1 of 10
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A Chance Evening Meeting at Bree and 'The Quest of Erebor'
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A Chance Evening Meeting at Bree . . .
15 March, 2941 — Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf's chance meeting at The Prancing Pony in Bree, wherein the wizard 'just happens' to run into Thorin, who is at once both surprised and happy to see him, admitting to 'Master Gandalf' that 'you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I were bidden to seek you. Indeed I should have done so, if I had known where to find you'. Looking at Thorin with similar wonder, Gandalf replies: 'That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield. For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls'* (LOTR, Appendix A, p. 1078). When it had come time for Gandalf to decide who would go on the quest, he explains, 'I could not get Bilbo out of my mind'. Though Gandalf confesses to the dwarves that choosing a hobbit to accompany them is an absurd notion, this urging becomes even stronger. Gandalf uses these words to describe it: 'Suddenly I felt that I was indeed in hot earnest. This queer notion of mine was not a joke, it was right. It was desperately important that it should be carried out...' (the sentence that immediately follows this last of Gandalf's is interesting, for Tolkien puts in the prophetic wizard's mouth a biblical expression: 'The Dwarves must bend their stiff necks' (to accept his selection of Bilbo as their Burglar). Thus do Gandalf and Thorin together journey to the Dwarven kingdom in the Blue Mountains, there to fully plan and arrange for 'the Quest of Erebor'. It is after later telling Thorin of his meeting with Thráin (in which Thorin's father gave him Thrór's Map and Key, which play such an important part in THE HOBBIT) that Gandalf speaks of an additional strange prompting: 'By some warning of my heart I kept them always on me, safe...' It was only later that 'time revealed their meaning' and he understood 'that I had the plan and the key of a secret entrance to Erebor...' (Annotated HOBBIT, Appendix A: 'The Quest of Erebor', pp. 372, 374).
* The Narrator of Appendix A of THE LORD OF THE RINGS adds that 'the story is told elsewhere' — meaning in the account of 'the Quest of Erebor' which describes events leading up to the dwarves' adventure with Bilbo — of the 'strange plan' that Gandalf makes with the help of Thorin. The appendix section ends with a conversation Gandalf has with Frodo and Gimli Glóinson in Minas Tirith after the final overthrow of Sauron. Gandalf mentions with sadness the death of Dáin, but comments that things could have been far worse. The threats from the Northern battlefront — 'dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell' — have all been averted. All because, as Gandalf explains, 'I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth' (LOTR, Appendix A, p. 1080). In Gandalf's observation, Tolkien suggests that while those in Middle-earth might call the meeting with Thorin a chance occurrence, someone somewhere else would not use this word to describe how they happened to meet, implying the existence of a Providential power at work behind the scenes in THE HOBBIT (Devin Brown, The Christian World of THE HOBBIT [2012], pp. 56-58. Now, one final note: Douglas Anderson points out that the reader is best to rely upon dates not as they exist in THE HOBBIT [not all of which are reconcilable to those given in its sequel's Appendices], but rather as they are presented by Tolkien in his 'The Quest of Erebor', which was originally to have been part of an appendix to LOTR; for example, Bilbo's journey should be seen to have begun on Thursday, 27 April [not 28 April]; also, Tolkien twice in THE HOBBIT erroneously cites a morning in 'May' [instead of April, as it actually occurs] as the month of Bilbo's departure for Erebor; see Annotated HOBBIT, pp. 56-57, 64, 203, 329, and that work's Appendix A: 'The Quest of Erebor', pp. 365-377).
from Peter Jackson's Prologue of The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug . . .
[a flashback, although of the date we may be unaware, to 15 March TA 2940, a year before Thorin & Company set out on their 'Quest of Erebor'; the setting is the Village of Bree, some distance east of the Shire: it's pouring rain amidst rumbling thunder when royal Dwarf-chieftain Thorin Oakenshield, under cloak and hood, enters the Inn of The Prancing Pony at eventide; crossing to an unoccupied table inside the inn's eating and drinking hall, he passes a man at the bar calling out to the bartender, Butterbur Sr., to bring him drink to quench his thirst ('I'm dying of thirst over here — Come on! Come on!'; Butterbur meanwhile serves another man a pint of ale: 'Here you are', to which the man responds, amidst nearby carousing and laughter: 'Thank you kindly'); moments later, another man brushes past the barmaid, Betsy Butterbur, the proprietor's daughter, nearly knocking from her hand the pint of ale she is bringing to Thorin, who now sits solitary — 'hot with brooding on his wrongs and the loss of the treasure of his forefathers' — awaiting service at the table]
Betsy Butterbur: — Oh, watch it!
Bar Patron: Sorry, darling.
Betsy Butterbur [setting before Thorin his drink and food-plate]: ... There you are.
Thorin: Thank you.
[A man at the bar greets a 'halfing' (hobbit) with a half-pint ('Master Stadle') and lifts him up to a barstool. Thorin, as he begins eating, notices a sinister-looking man with a pale right eye — Bill Ferny Sr. — in the corner to his right staring at him; so alerted, he then looks to his left and notices a similarly unsavory character eyeing him there: as both figures start towards him, we see the dwarf calculating an imminent dual-confrontation as he begins drawing his sword in preparation; suddenly Gandalf appears and asks to take a seat opposite Thorin at his table, quickly diffusing the situation: the two men, their dark intent thus foiled, retire to the shadows; Thorin, the tension eased, releases his grip upon the broadsword at his side]
Gandalf: Mind if I join you?... [to Betsy, as she walks past again:] — I'll have the same [to Thorin:] ... I should introduce myself: My name is Gandalf — Gandalf the Grey.
Thorin: — I know who you are.
Gandalf: Well, now! — This is a fine chance! ... What brings Thorin Oakenshield ... to Bree?
Thorin: ... I received word that my father ... had been seen wandering the Wilds near Dunland — I went looking ... I found no sign of him.
Gandalf: ... Ah, Thráin.
Thorin: You're like the others — You think he's dead.
Gandalf: I was not at the Battle of Moria.
Thorin: — No ... but I was. [Another flashback, to said Battle: amidst brutal fighting, we see Azog the Defiler, the Great Orc Chieftain, lifting high aloft the severed head of the Dwarvenking Thrór, Thorin's grandfather] ... My grandfather, Thrór, was slain. [We behold Dwarf-prince Thorin, having witnessed the grotesque slaying, as he cries out in anguished horror, 'No!' The Defiler cruelly punctuates the murder by tossing Thrór's severed head towards the slain king's grandson. Thráin, Thorin's father, equally horrified, calls desperately to his son when he observes Thorin start towards Azog, to avenge his grandfather's death. The elder Dwarf speedily blocks his son's aggression, only to forthwith attempt himself to confront the Defiler; Thorin, in protest, exclaims, 'Father!' with Thráin rejoining, 'Stay back!' ... 'No!' counters Thorin, 'I will fight with you!' But the father is resolute: 'Azog means to kill us all. One by one, he will destroy the line of Durin. But by my life, he shall not take my son! — You must stay here...' And turning aside, Thráin strides heroically forward to avenge his father's blood] ... My father led a charge towards the Dimrill Gate — he never returned. [We see now a doubly anguished Thorin cry out, 'Father!' ... and witness in rapid succession the final events of the Battle: Thorin's confrontation with Azog whereby he earns his epithet 'Oakenshield', and its tragic aftermath] ... 'Thráin is gone,' they told me. 'He is one of the fallen'. But at the end of that battle, I searched amongst the slain ... to the last body — My father was not among the dead.
Gandalf: ... Thorin, it's been a long time since anything but rumor was heard of Thráin.
Thorin: — He still lives! ... I am sure of it —
Gandalf: ... The ring your grandfather wore, one of the Seven given to the Dwarf-lords many years ago ... what became of it?
Thorin: ... He ... gave it to my father before they went into battle —
Gandalf: — So Thráin was wearing it when he ... [rephrasing in his mind what he was about to ask:] ... when he went missing, ... Mm? [to which inquiry Thorin nods in the affirmative] — That's that, then.
[Betsy interrupts by bringing Gandalf food and drink, placing it on the table before them: 'There you are...']
Thorin: ... I know my father came to see you before the Battle of Moria — what did you say to him?
Gandalf [gravely]: ... I urged him to march upon Erebor, to rally the Seven Armies of the Dwarves — to destroy the dragon and take back the Lonely Mountain ... And I would say the same to you: Take back your homeland!
Thorin: ... This is no chance meeting — is it, Gandalf?
Gandalf: ... No. It is not ... The Lonely Mountain troubles me, Thorin: that dragon has sat there long enough. Sooner or later darker minds will turn towards Erebor ... I ran into some ... unsavory characters whilst traveling along the Greenway ... They mistook me ... for a vagabond.
Thorin [recognizing the wizard's wide and storied reputation]: — I imagine they regretted that.
Gandalf: One of them was carrying ... a message [unrolling a scrap of animal skin across which strange black markings are etched, sliding it towards Thorin] — it is Black Speech [Thorin casts an uneasy glance at the wizard, drawing back his hand that was about to touch the scrawl] ... a promise of payment.
Thorin: ... For what?
Gandalf [gravely]: — Your head: someone wants you dead ... Thorin, you can wait no longer. You are the heir to the Throne of Durin! Unite the armies of the Dwarves — together, you have the might and power to retake Erebor! — Summon a meeting of the Seven Dwarf Families. Demand they stand by their Oath.
Thorin: The Seven Armies swore that oath to the one who wields the King's Jewel — the Arkenstone. It is the only thing that will unite them — and in case you have forgotten, that Jewel was stolen by Smaug.
[the Grey Wizard and Chief Dwarf in confab notice the two sinister men on either side of them, seemingly alarmed at what they've just overheard, get up and leave the bar together]
Gandalf: ... What if I were to help you ... reclaim it?
Thorin [astonished at the wizard's earnestness, but also intrigued]: — How? ... The Arkenstone lies half a world away — buried beneath the feet of a fire-breathing dragon!
Gandalf: ... Yes, it does ... which is why we're going to need ... a burglar . . .
THE QUEST of EREBOR (excerpts ...)
Gandalf had not yet played any part in the fortunes of Durin's House. He had not had many dealings with the Dwarves; though he was a friend to those of good will, and liked well the exiles of Durin's Folk who lived in the west. But on a time it chanced that he was passing through Eriador (going to the Shire, which he had not seen for some years) when he fell in with Thorin Oakenshield, and they talked together ... and rested for the night at Bree . . . From this meeting there followed many deeds and events of great moment: indeed the finding of the One Ring, and its coming to the Shire, and the choosing of the Ringbearer. Many therefore have supposed that Gandalf foresaw all these things, and chose his time for the meeting with Thorin. Yet we believe that it was not so. For in his tale of the War of the Ring Frodo the Ringbearer left a record of Gandalf's own words on this very point . . .
At Minas Tirith in Gondor after the War of the Ring [TA 3018-19 > Jackson: TA 3001-02], Gimli son of Glóin wonders at how 'strangely woven together' were the events of 'the recovery of the Kingship Under the Mountain, and the fall of Smaug [and] the end of Barad-dûr ... Strangely, very strangely ... But who wove the web? Did you plan all this then, Gandalf? ... was [it] not your design?' Gandalf did not answer at once. He stood up, and looked out of the window, west, seawards; and the sun was then setting, and a glow was in his face. He stood so a long while silent ... But at last he turned to Gimli and said ... 'I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay in my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak more openly ...
I was [however] beginning to be seriously troubled about the situation in the North when I met Thorin Oakenshield ... I saw that the Westlands were in for another very bad time again, sooner or later [after enduring the Great Plague and the Long and Fell Winters, see the note 'TA 1636' under discussion VII: The White Council drives The Necromancer from Dol Guldur] ... pitiless war. To come through that I thought they would need something more than they now had. It is not easy to say what. Well, they would want to know a bit more, understand a bit clearer what it was all about, and where they stood. They had begun to forget: forget their own beginnings and legends, forget what little they had known about the greatness of the world. It was not yet gone, but it was getting buried: the memory of the high and the perilous. But you cannot teach that sort of thing to a whole people quickly. There was not time. And anyway you must begin at some point, with some one person.
I dare say he was 'chosen' and I was only chosen to choose him; but I picked out Bilbo ... How would you select any one Hobbit for such a purpose? ... I had not time to sort them all out; but I knew the Shire very well by that time, although ... I had been away for more than twenty years on less pleasant business. So naturally thinking over the Hobbits that I knew, I said to myself: 'I want a dash of the Took ... I want a good foundation of the stolider sort, a Baggins perhaps. That pointed at once to Bilbo. And I had known him once very well, almost up to his coming of age, better than he knew me. I liked him then. And [once I had gone back to the Shire] I found that he was 'unattached' — he had never married. I thought that odd, though I guessed why it was; and the reason I guessed was not the one that most of the Hobbits gave me: that he had early been left very well off and his own master. No, I guessed that he wanted to remain 'unattached' for some reason deep down which he did not understand himself — or would not acknowledge, for it alarmed him ... I remember how he used to pester me with questions when he was a youngster about the Hobbits that had occasionally 'gone off' as they said in the Shire. There were at least two of his uncles on the Took side that had done so ... [But while in the Shire] I gathered all the news I could of events and people. Then I sat alone for a long while and thought, I needed it. I could not get Bilbo out of my mind ... and it may sound less absurd now than it did then. It seemed so absurd then, even to me, that I laughed at myself, and wondered what made me consider such a plan: to entangle the Shire-folk in the affairs of the Dwarves, and in feuds and disasters on the far frontiers more than two hundred years ago ... But ... let us go back to my meeting with Thorin.
He invited me to go home with him. So I did; and we actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful. Indeed, I think it was annoyance with his haughty disregard of the Hobbits that [confirmed in my mind] the idea of entangling him with them. As far as he was concerned they were just food-growers who happened to work the fields on either side of the Dwarves' ancestral road to the mountains ... [And as we journeyed along, and as Thorin began laying out plans for the quest to reclaim Erebor, he continued] still there talking in a large way, wondering if his cousin Dáin could furnish two thousands, and if the Men of that region would be likely to help ... and so on, as if he was a king planning a campaign. At last I stopped him ... 'My plan is very different from any of yours' [I said,] 'and you may not like it at all'...
[We met] in conclave with some of his kinsfolk ... 'Your own ideas' [I said,] 'are those of a king, Thorin Oakenshield. But your kingdom is gone. If it is to be restored ... it must be from small beginnings ... Open war [seems] quite ... impossible [Peter Jackson in his filmic retelling diverges here in the counsel Gandalf gives to Thorin: he has Gandalf actually urge Thorin in their meeting at Bree to rally the Dwarven armies to his aid to retake Erebor; the result, however, remains the same at the outset of the quest (nothing changes), as Thorin still is unsuccessful in his pre-quest efforts to achieve a solidarity of will in rallying the Seven Houses of the Dwarves to their cause, and Gandalf's more clandestine approach is therefore adopted at Bag-End] ... You will have to try something simpler and yet bolder, indeed something desperate ... You will have to go on this quest ... secretly. No messengers, heralds, or challenges ... You [must lead the vanguard of your 'assault' initially only] with a few kinsmen or faithful followers. But you will need something more, something unexpected ... You hope to deal with a dragon; and he is not only very great, but he is now also old and very cunning. From the beginning you must allow for this: his memory, and his sense of smell ... Also a scent that cannot be easily placed, at least not by Smaug, the enemy of Dwarves ... My plan is one of stealth. Stealth. Smaug does not lie on his costly bed without dreams ... He dreams of Dwarves [in] his sleep: his half-sleep, prick-eared for the sound of dwarf-feet ... It [will be] difficult ... but not impossibly difficult, or I would not waste my time here. I would say absurdly difficult. So I [have suggested] an absurd solution to the problem [—] take a Hobbit with you! Smaug has probably never heard of Hobbits, and he has certainly never smelt them.'
'What!' cried Glóin. 'One of those simpletons down in the Shire? What use on earth, or under it, could he possibly be? Let him smell as he may, he would never dare to come within smelling distance of the nakedest dragonet new from the shell!'
'Now, now!' I said, 'that is quite unfair. You do not know much about the Shire-folk, Glóin. I suppose you think them simple, because they are generous and do not haggle; and think them timid because you never sell them any weapons. You are mistaken. Anyway, [the] one that I have my eye on as a companion for you ... is neat-handed and clever, though shrewd, and far from rash. And I think he has courage. Great courage, I guess, according to the way of his people. They are, you might say, 'brave in a pinch'. You have to put these Hobbits in a tight place before you can find out what is in them.'
'The test cannot be made', Thorin answered. 'As far as I have observed, they do all that they can to avoid tight places'.
'Quite true', I said. 'They are very sensible people. But this Hobbit is rather unusual. I think he could be persuaded to go into a tight place. I believe that in his heart he really desires to — to have, as he would put it, an adventure'...
'I fail to see' [said Thorin, rising,] 'what any Hobbit, good or bad, could do ... even if he could be persuaded to start'...
'Hobbits move without effort more quietly than any Dwarf in the world could manage, though his life depended on it' [I said.] 'They are, I suppose, the most soft-footed of all mortal kinds. You do not seem to have observed that, at any rate, Thorin Oakenshield, as you tramped through the Shire, making a noise (I might add) that the inhabitants could hear a mile away. When I said that you would need stealth, I meant it: professional stealth.'
'Professional stealth?' cried Balin, taking up my words rather differently than I had meant them. 'Do you mean a trained treasure-seeker? Can they still be found?'
I hesitated. This was a new turn, and I was not sure how to take it. 'I think so', I said at last. 'For a reward they will go in where you dare not, or at any rate cannot, and get what you desire'. Thorin's eyes glistened as the memories of lost treasures moved in his mind ... 'A paid thief' ... 'That might be considered ... But what has all this to do' [he said scornfully,] 'with one of those villagers? They drink out of clay, and they cannot tell a gem from a bead of glass'.
'I wish you would not always speak so confidently without knowledge', I said sharply. 'These villagers have lived in the Shire some fourteen hundred years, and they have learned many things in the time. They had dealings with the Elves, and with the Dwarves, a thousand years before Smaug came to Erebor. None of them are wealthy as your forefathers reckoned it, but you will find some of their dwellings have fairer things in them than you can boast here, Thorin. The hobbit that I have in mind has ornaments of gold, and eats with silver tools, and drinks wine out of shapely crystal'...
'He's a thief, then?' [queried Balin] 'That is why you recommend him?'
At that I fear I lost my temper and my caution. This dwarvish conceit that no one can have or make anything 'of value' save themselves, and that all fine things in other hands must have been got, if not stolen, from the Dwarves at some time, was more than I could stand at that moment. 'A thief?' I said, laughing. 'Why yes, a professional thief, of course! How else would a Hobbit come by a silver spoon? I will put the thief's mark on his door, and then you will find it'. [Peter Jackson, of course, in his film, has Gandalf himself suggest to Thorin at Bree that a thief, or 'burglar', will in fact be needed in order for his quest to succeed: that securing the services of such a 'professional' will be imperative to his securing the Arkenstone, and hence, the power to unite all Dwarves to their cause to retake from the dreaded fire-drake their Mountain 'homeland'.]
Then being angry I got up, and I said with a warmth that surprised myself: 'You must look for that door, Thorin Oakenshield! I am serious.' And suddenly I felt that I was indeed in hot earnest. This queer notion of mine was not a joke, it was right. It was desperately important that it should be carried out. The Dwarves must bend their stiff necks. 'Listen to me, Durin's Folk!' I cried 'If you persuade this hobbit to join you, you will succeed. If you do not, you will fail. If you refuse even to try, then I have finished with you. You will get no more advice or help from me until the Shadow falls on you!'
Thorin turned and looked at me in astonishment, as well he might. 'Strong words!' he said. 'Very well, I will come. Some foresight is in you, if you are not merely crazed'.
'Good!' I said 'But you must come with good will, not merely in the hope of proving me a fool. You must be patient and not easily put off, if neither the courage nor the desire for adventure that I speak of are plain at first sight. He will deny them. He will try to back out; but you must not let him'.
'Haggling will not help him, if that is what you mean', said Thorin. 'I will offer him a fair reward for anything that he recovers, and no more'.
It was not what I meant, but it seemed useless to say so. 'There is one other thing', I went on; 'you must make all your plans and preparations beforehand. Get everything ready! Once persuaded he must have no time for second thoughts. You must go straight from the Shire, east on your quest'.
'He sounds a very strange creature, this thief of yours', said a young Dwarf called Fíli (Thorin's nephew, as I afterwards learned). 'What is his name, or the one that he uses?'
'Hobbits use their real names', I said. 'The only one that he has is Bilbo Baggins.'
'What a name!' said Fíli, and laughed.
'He thinks it very respectable', I said. 'And it fits well enough; for he is a middle-aged bachelor, and getting a bit flabby ... Food is perhaps at present his main interest. He keeps a very good larder, I am told, and maybe more than one. At least you will be well entertained'...
'Enough', [said] Thorin ... 'I [have] given my word, [but] I am in no mood to be made a fool of. For I am serious also. Deadly serious, and my heart is hot within me'.
I took no notice of this. 'Look now, Thorin', I said, 'April is passing and Spring is here. Make everything ready as soon as you can. I have some business to do, but I shall be back in a week. When I return, if all is in order, I will ride on ahead and prepare the ground. Then we will all visit him together'... And with that I took my leave, not wishing to give Thorin more chance of second thoughts than Bilbo was to have ... [None knew, including Bilbo,] all that went on: the care, for instance, that I took so that the coming of a large party of Dwarves to Bywater, off the main road and their usual beat, should not come to his ears too soon . . . (Annotated HOBBIT, Appendix A: 'The Quest of Erebor', pp. 368-374, 377n).
This begins the second of a 12-part discussion focusing on various aspects of Tolkien's writing and Jackson's filming of THE HOBBIT (wherein we might also identify or discover together points of 'harmony' in book and film):
I. THE KING UNDER THE MOUNTAIN and THE SEVEN HOUSES OF THE DWARVES
II. A Chance Evening Meeting at Bree and THE QUEST of EREBOR
III. An Unexpected Journey . . .
IV. Azanulbizar, Azog, and the Necromancer . . .
V. Galadriel's Telepathy with Gandalf: Ósanwe 'thought-speech' and Free-will . . .
VI. Bilbo, Sméagol-Gollum, Smaug, and the One Ring of Power . . .
VII. The White Council drives The Necromancer from Dol Guldur . . .
VIII. BALIN AND MORIA
IX. Girion's Heir: Bard's Heritage & Dynasty . . .
X. What's in a Date? Tolkien and Christian Symbolism . . .
XI. What's in a Number? Tolkien's Three and Seven . . .
XII. The Gift of Death and The Great End . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
(This post was edited by chauvelin2000 on Feb 17 2015, 9:46pm)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Feb 17 2015, 10:35pm
Post #2 of 10
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A word of caution when quoting text. We set up guidelines in the Reading Room about quoting copyrighted materials, and this particular post might get close to the edge of allowable material. i don't want to dampen the enthusiasm, and the discussions so far have been outstanding, but I also don't want your posts to be shut down for copyright violation.
Here's the guidelines we set in the Reading Room. Carry on!
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 18 2015, 6:57am
Post #3 of 10
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This is excellent, and I look forward to following the complete series!
It's been a while since this board has seen a planned, in depth discussion of the books and movies, and is a welcome change in tone and pace. Keep it up (and do be careful about the copyright issue)! 
As for the content itself, it did not strike me that in the books, Gandalf urges secrecy instead of open war, while the movies flip this around, though the net effect remains the same.
I also wish they had shown a meeting of the Dwarf-lords in the Blue Mountains - that would've been something.
The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Feb 18 2015, 9:02am
Post #4 of 10
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And I'm sorry, this seems woefully inadequate when you've put so much work in, but I'm running up against a deadline and mustn't spend too long.
One is that, as you point out, there is a change between film and book in Gandalf's advice to Thorin. In the film, as you say, he talks of calling together the dwarf armies whereas in the book the roles are reversed and Gandalf advises stealth. It may be that some changes are deliberate to avoid the charge of copyright violation. The filmmakers didn't have rights to 'The Quest of Erebor', only to the briefer account in the LotR Appendix - and to The Hobbit itself.
Second thing - this made me smile. The little reference there to 'a young dwarf called Fili' and said young dwarf's reaction on hearing Bilbo's name: ''What a name!' said Fíli, and laughed. It's only a tiny detail but it reminds me so much of Fili and Kili as pictured in the film - visibly younger, playful and a tad irreverent. I like that - and it's a reminder, I think, that some of the most telling indications of character don't need a lot of page (or screen) time, the can be found in the tiniest details.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Feb 18 2015, 2:23pm
Post #5 of 10
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It sounds much better coming from you than from me. I almost posted much the same thing yesterday, but refrained because I didn't think it was my place. Then I thought of PMing you to ask what you thought, but didn't because I figured you would see it yourself and say something if necessary. And you did!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Feb 18 2015, 2:48pm
Post #6 of 10
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The date of Gandalf's encounter with Thorin would have been different in the prologue in TH:DoS-EE. The meeting would have had to have occurred in July of TA 2939 as we are told that the flashback takes place twelve months before we find Thorin and Company in the Vales of Anduin, soon after climbing down from the Carrock. The Quest of Erebor in film-canon would have taken place in 2940, sixty years before Bilbo Baggins' farewell party of September 22, 3000 (the date Bilbo gives in the beginning of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - Extended Edition).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Feb 18 2015, 3:39pm
Post #7 of 10
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Not sure of where one can Draw the Copywrite line, TOO!
Much is direct Quotes from various Sources
Both from The Books
& the Movie Scripts...
& an occasional...comment?
from the author of these posts.
Is there some percentage? where say,approximately 85%
is direct from copy-written material...& only
a small percentage analysis from this
POSTED on the Internet...?
for the world to see.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Feb 19 2015, 12:35am
Post #8 of 10
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The Matter of the Chance Meeting
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Thank you once again for the enormous work in bringing the materials together in such a well defined and coherent manner.
I will use that word communicative again to describe how I judge the presentation of this matter in the film to a multi lingual global audience who will see the movies just once.
There are two elements about this movie meeting which create obscurities rather than clarity and other changes affect that obscurity.
1) The conclusion of the fabled meeting with Thrain was that he handed over the map and the key to Gandalf for safe keeping before he went away to fight to reclaim the Mines of Moria. Whereas the audience are told Gandalf urged him to rally the 7 families and take Erebor. On close examination after considering the later conversation with Thrain this appears to have become an argument about Dwarven homeland strategy.
2) In the chance meeting Gandalf once again urges Thorin to take back Erebor with the help of the seven families and Thorin has to remind Gandalf of the sanction that the Arkenstone provides its holder.
Wasn't Gandalf in both meetings or Thrain aware of this nuance in their meeting.
Solution
Gandalf meets Thrain in the blue Mountains grieving for his father. He wants revenge and is a little vain glorious spurred on by the effects of the ring. In a moment of foresight he offers the map and the key to Gandalf for safe keeping and ready to be used at the "right time". He is now bent entirely on revenge rather than statesman like about the re establishment of a kingdom.
Gandalf meets Thorin who has visited the 7 families. Dain will support his cousin but the 7 will only respond to the heir who holds the Arkenstone. They agree then the Quest must be to reclaim the Arkenstone. Gandalf offers to help regain it by stealth first a burglar and then a means of entrance. Meeting ends and Thorin agrees to let Dain know of their plan.
So the Quest for Erebor is quite clearly to reclaim the A-Stone and Gandalf will provide the burglar the map the key and the decoding. Dain is then foreshadowed as the helpful cousin who will respond down the line whether Thorin has the A Stone or not.
When G meets and heals the now Sauron aware Thrain. Thrain regrets the handing over the map and the key and pleads with Gandalf to save his son from the folly of the Quest not "Tell him Ioved him".
In my humble opinion this is not E.E. material these matters shape and drive the basic plot and each characters motivation should be clear and not require additional thinking by the viewer to get there.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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chauvelin2000
Nevrast
Feb 20 2015, 5:55am
Post #9 of 10
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The Secret Conclaves of Gandalf and Thráin . . .
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In Jackson's retelling, Gandalf must have obtained the Map and Key from Thráin at some earlier (unfilmed) meeting after Smaug's attack on Erebor [TA 2770], and clearly some time [c. TA 2795 ?] before the Battle of Azanulbizar [TA 2799] — It may have been shortly after TA 2793, when the Orcs, under Azog, utterly defiled Dwarven heritage and sacred memory by sacking and plundering their revered sites and strongholds within the Misty Mountains [chiefly at their capital city of Gundabad], which grave atrocities initiated the Orc and Goblin Wars.
As Gandalf says to Thorin in Tolkien's 'Quest of Erebor': 'I think the Dark Power had desired nothing from [Thráin] except the [Dwarven] Ring [of Power] only, and when he had taken that [through a brutal act of Azog at Moria's Battle, in Jackson's retelling], he troubled no further, but just flung the broken prisoner into the pits to rave until he died. A small oversight. But it proved fatal. Small oversights often do...' (Annotated HOBBIT, Appendix A: 'The Quest of Erebor', p. 376).
And per Gandalf's later Dol Guldur scene with Thráin, it does indeed appear that the Grey Wizard and the heir-apparent to Erebor's throne, in that early pre-Battle confab [c. TA 2795 ?], are making the clandestine transfer of Map and Key, while also discussing the 'ways and means' — as Tolkien indicates was also Thráin's abiding desire — to retake the Mountain (that is, until he ominously 'learned better', per Jackson's film-verse, through Dol Guldur's 'grapevines' ... or could those be snakes?  ). Gandalf at that ancient meeting does urge Thráin, as in Jackson's film he urges Thorin at Bree, to rally the Seven armies to retake Erebor. And with Thráin's own long-held wish to reclaim the Mountain, the secret conclave was, very probably, as you say, Michelle, 'an argument about Dwarven homeland strategy':
In the abandoned '1960 HOBBIT'(but carrying over then into the Third [1966] edition) Gandalf says to Thorin: 'Thror, your grandfather was murdered in the mines of Moria by Azog ... Thrain, your father ... has never been seen by you since [but once upon a time he did set out to reclaim the Lonely Mountain: he 'went away [on an expedition (Jackson: c. TA 2785-90 ?) with Balin, Dwalin, and others, and] took the map and went to try his luck in the Mountain [to dispatch the dragon and wrest from him the treasure]. But he had no luck; he was caught in dark perils, and never came in sight of his home].... Well your father gave me this map and the key, ninety-one years ago [Jackson: c. 145 years ago?], and I have guarded it ever since ...
'Until I heard your tale, I did not know how Thror and Thrain escaped from the Mountain ... I guess that your grandfather gave this map to [your father] for safety before he himself went to the mines of Moria ... [I, too, entered into] the dungeons of the Necromancer [and there found Thrain imprisoned by the Dark Lord Sauron, and he died soon after ... Though] I will not speak of it. But it was my task [laid upon me by the White Council] to search in the shadows, and a dark and dangerous quest it was [— and a remarkable achievement, we might add, placing the Grey Wizard with Beren, Lúthien, and Sméagol as among the very few characters in the whole legendarium known to have escaped from a Dark Lord's lair]. Even I, Gandalf, hardly escaped. I tried to save your father [who was] alone, in misery. It was too late. He was witless and wandering, and had forgotten almost all that he had known....
'[To which Thorin responded: 'Thror was avenged: we paid the goblins in Moria long ago [in the Goblin Wars; Jackson: at Azanulbizar]. We must [now] give a thought to this Necromancer!' — 'Hush!' said Gandalf. 'Don't speak as a fool! Grief has robbed you of your wits. The One that you name] is an enemy far beyond the powers of all the dwarves in the world, if they could all be gathered again from the four corners of the Earth, even from their tombs. The only thing that your father wished was that you should read the map and use the key [which Jackson, in turn, makes the one and only thing, before his murder by the Necromancer, that Thráin does not wish] ... They [the map and key that I have given you, Thorin,] are burden enough. The Dragon of the Mountain is as big a task as you can manage; too big, maybe...' (History of THE HOBBIT, pp. 779-80).
For Thráin, his having been 'caught in dark perils', whatever these may have been, was perhaps enough to dissuade him from ever again attempting to 'retake Erebor', and it may indeed have been, as you say, Michelle, an 'argument'. Entrusting Gandalf with the Map and Key at that time was probably precisely for the reason the wizard reports it to have been, per Jackson's film-verse: 'for safe-keeping' only (just before Thráin went off to fight at Moria's Azanulbizar). Given such a scenario, and per Jackson's story-telling lense, Thráin may never have intended for his son ever to receive the Map and Key. For 'safe-keeping' is exactly what Thráin appears to have meant: that is, holding the items in 'safe-keeping' from one and all, including his own son, whom he wishes to protect. Gandalf, however, would have been of a very different mindset and purposive bent — thinking more broadly, more aggressively, more 'strategically', as any watch-warden of Middle-earth would.
If, on the other hand — and I love your scenario for a Blue Mountains conclave — Thráin remained undeterred from whatever 'perils' he had encountered in his first attempt upon the Mountain, then perhaps the entrusting of Map and Key into Gandalf's care meant an eventual releasing of the 'secret weapon' at the right moment. I warm to your scenario also for its more focused, more mythically germane use of the Arkenstone — for what it does to some degree (per Jackson's film-verse) actually signify for the Dwarves (but perhaps also for the Elves?) as a mighty Middle-earth 'power chip'? As I've argued elsewhere, I agree with Rateliff's suggestion that this 'Holy Stone' may, in fact, be a Silmaril of Fëanor. If so, then there may be as well other and greater motives for the Elves in their march upon the Mountain than meets the eye: for although such a sacred Stone may have been defiled by the Dwarves, it yet must be reclaimed and, as foretold by Mandos, given its ultimate, sanctified rest within the Earth until the Great End. In Jackson’s film, Thráin's 'in the know' outlook from Dol Guldur yet informs his final, desperate petitions to Gandalf to keep his son and people from ever entering Erebor whilst tainted by a great alliance of Evil, attempting thereby to protect them from the folly of their Quest.
Much more indeed might have been made of various motifs and themes that seem to simmer just below the surface of these films. For while love is a powerful emotion, it seems in the execution of these lines rather trite, coming as it does ('Tell Thorin I loved him') from the mouth of Thráin son of Thrór, King Under the Mountain — unless other scenes exist which may yet clarify, and it’s simply that we (literally) don't have the 'full picture': but can ever such triteness, without the requisite audience investment in scenes that can award an emotional payoff, be salvaged by the EE?)
On a side note regarding these Mountain-kings: it's interesting that the father and grandfather of Bilbo's employer weren't even given names by Tolkien until, in the 1966 paperback Third-edition text, Thror and Thrain's names were inserted for the first time into THE HOBBIT's introductory chapter. In much the same way, Azog's Black-Speech name — although appearing earlier in LOTR's Appendix A(iii): 'Durin's Folk', pp. 1073-76 (in the creation of which Appendices it first arose: see HME XII, p. 276 'slain by an Orc' > p. 284 'Azog') — was imported back into THE HOBBIT retroactively, replacing the anonymous Goblin of the First [1937] and Second [1951] editions; History of THE HOBBIT, pp. 711, 779, 787n.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Feb 20 2015, 10:31am
Post #10 of 10
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Firstly I wanted to say i really enjoyed your remarks about themes and motives bubbling under in these films. In my view not breaking through to the surface in a clearly communicative way on occasions which would give the story the sort of gravitas the screen writers were aspiring to.
I suspect in the movie universe Thrain's plea to Gandalf was a dramatic nicety included to both underline Thrain's knowledge of Saurons's linkage with Smaug and increase the sense of foreboding just as the company reach the mountain. One could argue Thrain is suffering, like Denethor, from a loss of self belief after being warn down by Sauron seemingly overwhelming upper hand.
On the whole I would have felt Thrain, his wits partially restored by Gandalfs healing, would simply request his great friend Gandalf to return with all speed to the mountain to give aid and council to his son rather than dissuade him of his attempt to reclaim the Arkenstone. The Dwarves are a pretty resolute bunch and will go at against impossible odds rather than be daunted by evil. I am not at home but I recall Tolkien making this point about the character of the Dwarves.
Your splendid point about the gradual emergence of Azog as a name is typical JRRT- finding out the truth.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Feb 20 2015, 10:32am)
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Agree w/ V_t_F
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