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Blu Falcon
Nevrast
Aug 4 2008, 9:03pm
Post #1 of 38
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The Desolation of Smaug
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Forgive me if this has been previously discussed. I'm new around here and still feeling my way around.
A vision of Smaug according to Guillermo Del Toro...
"To me, Smaug is the perfect example of a great creature defined by its
look and design, yes, but also, very importantly, by his movement and
-One little hint- its environment - Think about it… the way he is
scaled, moves and is lit, limited or enhanced by his location, weather
conditions, light conditions, time of the year, etc. That’s all I can
say without spoilers but, if you keep this curious little summary
you’ll realize several years form now that those things I had in my
mind ever since doodling the character as a kid had solidified waaay
before starting the shoot of the film."
So is Smaug going to be reddish-gold?
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weaver
Gondolin
Aug 4 2008, 10:59pm
Post #2 of 38
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sounds like he's going to Smaug of the Many Colours...
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I'm intrigued by the sense I get that the way you see Smaug will be dependent on the particular environment he's in. That fits for me with the idea of a dragon being beguiling and tempting...hard to pin down, so to speak. Sounds like you'll never be able to quite trust what you're seeing and that will contribute to create a scary and unsettling effect...better than any clearly "seen" monster, perhaps.
Welcome to TORn and you look like you are fitting in just fine!
Weaver
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Altaira
Superuser
Aug 4 2008, 11:04pm
Post #3 of 38
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This *has* been previously discussed, but since old threads don't resurface here, it's perfectly okay to start a new thread on any subject as long as there's not already a thread on that subject on page one of any board. So you, your speculation and your post are welcome. 
A great hint to the answers to this question come from Del Toro himself, who posts here occasionally under the name Guillermo. This post by Compa Mighty, in particular, and GDT's answer, are most interesting. I'd also recommend reading through the entire thread as GDT participated several times in it.
If you'd like to read more of Guillermo's posts, you can find them by clicking on the "Who's Online" ring at the top of the page, then on the 'Member Directory" link. Click on his username under the 'G's, then click on "View User's Posts" at the bottom left.
We also have a very robust search function via the "Search Posts" ring. You can search by subject and by user. For example, I found the thread I linked you to by searching the word "Smaug" for posts only made by user Guillermo.
As for your question, as GDT implied, I think Compa might be onto something. 
Glad you found us and welcome again!
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Aug 5 2008, 12:57pm
Post #4 of 38
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Smaug is such an iconic part of The Hobbit
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and of dragons in general! It's one of those characters/beasts we each must have developed an image of in our own minds. I can't WAIT to see what Peter and GdT have in store for us! *twitch*
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Blu Falcon
Nevrast
Aug 5 2008, 2:43pm
Post #5 of 38
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I'm intrigued by the sense I get that the way you see Smaug will be dependent on the particular environment he's in. That fits for me with the idea of a dragon being beguiling and tempting...hard to pin down, so to speak. Sounds like you'll never be able to quite trust what you're seeing and that will contribute to create a scary and unsettling effect...better than any clearly "seen" monster, perhaps.
Welcome to TORn and you look like you are fitting in just fine!
I sort of get the feeling a chameleon-like dragon myself. He can sort of blend in to his environment in way that may sometimes render him invisible/very well concealed, like a sniper lying in the bush.
(This post was edited by Blu Falcon on Aug 5 2008, 2:46pm)
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Blu Falcon
Nevrast
Aug 5 2008, 2:45pm
Post #6 of 38
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This *has* been previously discussed, but since old threads don't resurface here, it's perfectly okay to start a new thread on any subject as long as there's not already a thread on that subject on page one of any board. So you, your speculation and your post are welcome. A great hint to the answers to this question come from Del Toro himself, who posts here occasionally under the name Guillermo. This post by Compa Mighty, in particular, and GDT's answer, are most interesting. I'd also recommend reading through the entire thread as GDT participated several times in it. If you'd like to read more of Guillermo's posts, you can find them by clicking on the "Who's Online" ring at the top of the page, then on the 'Member Directory" link. Click on his username under the 'G's, then click on "View User's Posts" at the bottom left. We also have a very robust search function via the "Search Posts" ring. You can search by subject and by user. For example, I found the thread I linked you to by searching the word "Smaug" for posts only made by user Guillermo. As for your question, as GDT implied, I think Compa might be onto something. Glad you found us and welcome again!
Yes! This is precisely what I've been thinking. If I may quote...
"But you got me thinking about the environment thing. If I am getting you correctly, it would seem we'd be talking of a colour changing dragon. Not as a chamaeleon would be, but rather getting his color through reflection.
Meaning... he would be all but invisible if there is no light in the environment... BUT once a light is lit in the halls, with all the reflection of the treasure, he'd be amazingly golden/yellow/orange, and he'd get an entirely different palette once he goes out of the mountain to attack Dale, with changing tones resulting of the reflections of his own fire.
Perhaps I am way out there with that interpretation, but it does seem interesting. If the scales were metallic-looking, then possibilities of colour interaction with the environment are endless.
Interesting indeed! That is if I'm even remotely close to what you are thinking! "
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rzg6f
Lindon
Aug 5 2008, 7:49pm
Post #7 of 38
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I've been lurking for a couple of years, but Mr. Del Toro's interaction got me to sign up.
This subject is particularly interesting to me as I am about to embark (pending official notification from the Dean's office) on my dissertation under one of the foremost Tolkien scholars in continental Europe and the subject, which hasn't really been explored a whole lot, is:
"The Role and Function of the Dragon-slayer in Germanic Literature and Contemporary Interpretation: from Beowulf and Siegfried to Bard and Turin Turambar"
So the dragon and the dragon slayer has a particular interest for me. Especially since, if the evidence permits, that I will be arguing in the dissertation that Tolkien is essentially telling Sagas to a contemporary audience in a contemporary form (the prose novel) but the essence is the tribal poetry of early Germanic tribes and this myth is exceptionally important. Outside literary theory and academia, I hope Smaug gives me what I am looking for in authenticity.
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Aug 5 2008, 9:37pm
Post #8 of 38
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"There he lay, a vast red-golden dragon, fast asleep...."
also
"so that the hobbit could see his underparts and his long pale belly crusted with gems and fragments of gold from his long lying on the costly bed."
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!
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Finduilas101
Ossiriand
Aug 5 2008, 9:45pm
Post #9 of 38
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That pretty much solved it for us Woodyend! lol
When GDT said that passage about noticing Smaug's environment, it got me thinking. I'm not thinking chameleon dragon or anything, but you know, he lives on a mountain and doesn't leave except when he flies off to eat. Therefore, he needs to be suited to crawling through tunnels and across rock. He needs to be low to the ground, and narrow, so as to fit through passages, but not small enough to get through the side-door. His wings also can't be too bulky, or they will cause a plethora of problems.
Hmm...maybe the classic zillion-foot-long Chinese dragon would work here? Nah, no chance. We'll have to wait and see.
Looking around Elrond's library...chucking stones in the waterfalls...singing tra-la-la with the elves....yup, life's good in Rivendell.
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Blu Falcon
Nevrast
Aug 5 2008, 11:04pm
Post #10 of 38
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I also think he might be illuminated in some way, such as the aquatic creatures found in the planet core of Naboo in Star Wars.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Aug 5 2008, 11:07pm
Post #11 of 38
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It sounds like you've got a bit of work ahead of you with your dissertation! What sort of timeframe are you looking at for completing it? (I ask because I think quite a few of the discussion board members would be interested in reading it.)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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weaver
Gondolin
Aug 5 2008, 11:22pm
Post #12 of 38
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well, make sure you share some of those dragon thoughts with us...
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...along with anything else you care to contribute.
Good luck with your dissertation and all I can say is that looks like a grand topic you've chosen.
Welcome to TORn!
Weaver
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Peredhil lover
Doriath
Aug 6 2008, 5:11am
Post #13 of 38
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Wow, that is an interesting topic for a dissertation! I'm sure here will be many who would be interested in everything about that you care to share or even to discuss one detail or another. Good luck with the dissertation!
I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.
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Kelvarhin
Gondolin
Aug 6 2008, 6:08am
Post #14 of 38
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and you can add me to your list of sibs who'd like to hear more on your dissertation when it's finished. All the best with it.
*hugs*
Kelvarhin x
Valinor, O Valinor
Andavë yányë hyarya
Tumna yá nyèna minya fëa
An Valinor, lissë Eldamar
Kelvarhin's Universe~~~~~~~Laerasea's Travelling TORn Journal
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play (with thanks to grammaboodawg :) )
Is TORn...Is Good
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rzg6f
Lindon
Aug 6 2008, 7:27am
Post #15 of 38
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I have three years, four if I fall ill or some other emergency. It's exciting and frightening at the same time. Exciting because there is some but not a whole lot of work done on Tolkien's approach of dragons. My advisor or Doktervater as we say over here, told me to expect some time researching Tolkien notes and manuscripts in Oxford. Frightening for the same reasons, I hope that I can pull it off respectably, and defending the topic successfully, hopefully it would be a good piece of work to convert into a more accessible book. Previous academic research is there concerning medieval Germanic literature and heroic epic, just not the connection to Tolkien, at least to a significant degree, which makes it a good topic. So I expect to be finished hopefully between the Hobbit and F2 releases.
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rzg6f
Lindon
Aug 6 2008, 7:33am
Post #16 of 38
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I am sure over the next couple of years that I will post an idea or two that I come across, especially if I get stuck. It's always helpful to get fresh ideas outside of the academic box as it were, on places such as this board
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rzg6f
Lindon
Aug 6 2008, 11:21am
Post #17 of 38
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So is Smaug going to be reddish-gold?
It is pretty clear the connection between dragons and their hordes. Most hordes of northern European heroic epic are in fact red-gold. For example the Rhine gold, Siegfried's treasure that Hagan cast into the Rhine, is red-gold, Alberich's cursed ring is red gold.
I hope, pun intended, that Mr. Del Toro's Smaug reflects that aesthetic as it is pretty authentic not only in Tolkien but the northern European sagas he was influenced by.
I know it is against the rules to address Mr. Del Toro personally, but it is my hope that he not only takes a look at Smaug from the text, but also Glaurung from the Sil and the new CoH as well as Ancalagon the Black from the Sil.
"Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed..." pp 302-303 Sil
Smaug probably was a part of this host that escaped to the north of the Iron mountains which is hinted at. But he was by no means the grand-daddy of all dragons. And since he is so malevolent and mighty, that must mean the earlier dragons were unbelievable as he is only a shadow of their might. I think this makes Turin Turambar even more spectacular as a dragon-slayer.
I also think Fáfnir of the Völungssaga should be looked at as well when designing Smaug for the big screen. While I am certainly encouraged by Mr. Del Toro's remarks that Smaug is THE dragon, I feel this applies to cinematic dragons and not literary dragons. Fáfnir is certainly the standard in the literary world of medieval northern European saga and heroic epic, Tristan's dragon in Ireland is merely a lizard compared. And Fáfnir is the keeper of the red-gold horde and ring.
So, I for one, hope that Mr. Del Toro, while using his genius artistic liberties, none-the-less stays with the archetype that has lasted in our collective consciousness throughout the centuries. Or: if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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Jettorex
Menegroth
Aug 6 2008, 1:44pm
Post #18 of 38
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I think he will be reddish-gold as Tolkien described but also gold shiny and thus refecting the light/environment of his surroundings-such as the gold and treasures and fire (his own and torches??) in the cave and also reflecting the fire on his attack on Lake town.
But what also has me intrigued is GDT's line: by his movement and -One little hint- its environment - Think about it… the way he is
scaled, moves and is lit, limited or enhanced by his location
Which makes me wonder if GDT will portray him as kind of snakelike, slithering around his little mountain of gold and flicking out his forked tongue trying to "smell" the invisible Bilbo?
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Smaugie
Lindon
Aug 6 2008, 5:02pm
Post #19 of 38
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...he's not portrayed as a "cat-like" dragon.
I've never liked that version.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Aug 6 2008, 5:40pm
Post #20 of 38
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That sounds like a fascinating subject. Have fun with that!
My LJ
My art site
NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Aug 7 2008, 1:55am
Post #21 of 38
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Intriguing title for a dissertation!
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Just wondering - will Giles of Ham be among your subjects of study?
Best of luck with your work - and welcome to TORn!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Aug 7 2008, 5:50am
Post #22 of 38
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But it *does* answer the question of...
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what Balrog slippers are made of.
It's dragon fur! 
Silverlode
"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you." -On Fairy Stories
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Aug 7 2008, 5:51am)
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willowgreylock
Menegroth
Aug 7 2008, 7:03pm
Post #23 of 38
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i'm hoping he isn't snakelike, i'm so hoping for the more traditional european dragon. but as far as Smaug fitting through the tunnels, are you familiar with the movie "The Dragonslayer"? i thought they did a great job with that dragon, it had a large set of wings, but managed to crawl through the tunnels of it's lair quite easily, and looked pretty realistic-no CG back then. and from what we know of the 'great mansion halls' delved by the dwarves, i
wouldn't think their tunnels would be none to shabby either.
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Finduilas101
Ossiriand
Aug 7 2008, 7:22pm
Post #24 of 38
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Hmm...nope, haven't seen that one.
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But I still think that Smaug would have to be reasonably long and not so tall in order to navigate. Remember that he wasn't always living in the Lonely Mountain!
Looking around Elrond's library...chucking stones in the waterfalls...singing tra-la-la with the elves....yup, life's good in Rivendell.
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willowgreylock
Menegroth
Aug 7 2008, 9:58pm
Post #25 of 38
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haven't seen Dragonslayer huh, well it is a bit of an 'oldie', but a goodie. maybe you'll give it a look see one day.
perhaps your right, but if the size of Moria is any indication of how big the dwarve city under 'the mountain' is, it
could support a good size dragon. look how tall the Balrog was. of course like the Balrog he may have to smash
his way through a bit.
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