|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
boldog
Nargothrond
May 4 2014, 9:09am
Post #1 of 14
(2324 views)
Shortcut
|
|
So what is the meaning of the two assasins in Bree?
|
Can't Post
|
|
What I have made out is that they are clearly hired by Azog to get thorins head. Perhaps they are hired because they are poor and desperate and would do anything for some wealth, even if it is instructed by an orc!
But when they leave, this is what i got. It seems to me that they had officially overheard the conversation about erebor and Smaug, and the reason they were leaving in haste was to report to Azog that this is what Thorin was planning to do. This then explains why and how Azog knew where the company were going roughly.
Also two other things. What do you think would have happened to these men? Would they have been killed or just left alone?
And who were the unsavery Characters that mistook Gandalf as a vagabond? Orcs? or men? If it was men I hope gandalf didnt kill them just because they mistook his identity. Very much out of his character to do so. Alright if it was Orcs but not men
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
|
|
|
deskp
Menegroth
May 4 2014, 9:22am
Post #2 of 14
(1961 views)
Shortcut
|
I assume Gandalf killed those unsavery characthers.
Its implied that they tried to robb or kill him. But they would have gotten a suprize at his ability to fight back due to being a wizard and not some random wanderer.
|
|
|
Bofur01
Menegroth
May 4 2014, 9:24am
Post #3 of 14
(1969 views)
Shortcut
|
..that the unsavoury characters were either Orcs or Evil Men, who gave him the message, thinking that he, as a vagabond, may want to hunt Thorin. Obviously this probably angered Gandalf quite a bit...
|
|
|
Noria
Hithlum
May 4 2014, 12:27pm
Post #4 of 14
(1861 views)
Shortcut
|
I thought that some agent of Azog or Sauron put a price on Thorin's head and let it be known to all the unsavory types they sometimes used. I assumed that the two assassins in the Prancing Pony left because Thorin was no longer alone and two were too much for them, especially when one was a wizard. Whether they heard Gandalf's words, I can’t say. You may be right that the assassins went to report to someone higher up, even if it was just that Thorin was meeting with Gandalf.
If there were orcs lurking on the Greenway, surely Gandalf would have warned the people of Bree and there would have been quite a fuss. So I took his words to mean that Gandalf met some men on the road who, thinking him a helpless old man, tried to rob and perhaps kill him. He may or may not have killed those men in defense of his life. If he did, he had to.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 4 2014, 3:16pm
Post #5 of 14
(1789 views)
Shortcut
|
My impression was that the two were local, freelance rogues who learned of the price on Thorin's head and were acting as bounty-hunters. After being discouraged by Gandalf, they slunk away, never to be seen again on film. Maybe one of them was the grandfather of one Bill Ferny.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 4 2014, 3:20pm)
|
|
|
BlackFox
Gondolin
May 4 2014, 3:47pm
Post #6 of 14
(1821 views)
Shortcut
|
"In TA 2941, the Squint [the father of the Squint-eyed Southerner] was hired by Azog, along with his partner Ferny [Bill Ferny Sr., the father of Bill Ferny] to assassinate Thorin II Oakenshield and found him in Bree at the Prancing Pony but failed to kill him due to the appearance of Gandalf and later left the inn by the time of his warning to Thorin about someone planning to murder him."
(http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Squint)
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
Bombadil
Gondolin
May 4 2014, 3:52pm
Post #7 of 14
(1774 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That does solve one mystery...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"Who did you tell
of your Quest?"
Thorin accidentally
spilled the Beans
in the Prancing Pony?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 4 2014, 4:26pm
Post #8 of 14
(1754 views)
Shortcut
|
"In TA 2941, the Squint [the father of the Squint-eyed Southerner] was hired by Azog, along with his partner Ferny [Bill Ferny Sr., the father of Bill Ferny] to assassinate Thorin II Oakenshield and found him in Bree at the Prancing Pony but failed to kill him due to the appearance of Gandalf and later left the inn by the time of his warning to Thorin about someone planning to murder him." ( http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Squint)
That seems rather speculative. How does the writer know that the thugs were hired by Azog? In any case, the timeline is a bit off. Peter Jackson altered the year of Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday to TA 3000, placing the Quest of Erebor in 2940. If Thorin's encounter with Gandalf was six months before the company reached the Carrock then the meeting might have taken place as early as December, 2939--no later than January 2940.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
BlackFox
Gondolin
May 4 2014, 6:12pm
Post #9 of 14
(1714 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The timeline is, indeed, a bit off
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Actually, in the film Thorin and Gandalf meet at the Prancing Pony twelve months before the company reaches the Carrock, so their encounter would definitely have to have taken place in TA 2939. Thanks for pointing it out.
And, yes, I agree, as there are no sources listed, this information must be "handled with caution" (it is a Wiki after all). I apologize if it came off wrong.
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
|
|
|
Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 5 2014, 1:28pm
Post #10 of 14
(1594 views)
Shortcut
|
But on a time it chanced that he was passing through Eriador (going to the Shire, which he had not seen for some years) when he fell in with Thorin Oakenshield, and they talked together on the road, and rested for the night at Bree.
In the morning Thorin said to Gandalf: "I have much on my mind, and they say you are wise and know more than most of what goes on in the world. Will you come home with me and hear me, and give me your counsel?"
To this Gandalf agreed, and when they came to Thorin's Hall he sat long with him and heard all the tale of his wrongs.
-Unfinished Tales
Those were my dark thoughts as I jogged along the road. I was tired, and I was going to the Shire for a short rest, after being away from it for more than twenty years. I thought that if I put them out of my mind for a while I might perhaps find some way of dealing with these troubles. And so I did indeed, though I was not allowed to put them out of my mind.
For just as I was nearing Bree I was overtaken by Thorin Oakenshield, who lived then in exile beyond the north-western borders of the Shire. To my surprise he spoke to me; and it was at that moment that the tide began to turn.
-Unfinished Tales
But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin, and led to other and greater ends beside. On a time Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.
It was even as Gandalf sat and pondered this that Thorin stood before him, and said: 'Master Gandalf, I know you only by sight, but now I should be glad to speak with you. For you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I were bidden to seek you. Indeed I should have done so, if I had known where to find you.'
-Appendix A
Of course legally Jackson can only use the last version.
******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 5 2014, 1:36pm
Post #11 of 14
(1588 views)
Shortcut
|
Jackson doesn't follow any of Tolkien's versions closely. Tolkien placed the encounter on March 15, 2941 (TA) while Jackson's version was much earlier (the summer previous to the Quest of Erebor). Also, Tolkien did not allude to any thugs, assassins or bounty hunters. Also, in the films, Gandalf does not know yet that Sauron is inhabiting Dol Guldur, and Thorin's relationship to the other Dwarven clans (via the Arkenstone) is very different; that alters his thought processes a great deal.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 5 2014, 1:42pm)
|
|
|
Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 5 2014, 2:17pm
Post #12 of 14
(1577 views)
Shortcut
|
..in Tolkien versions Thorin seeks Gandalf out, whereas in the film Gandalf seeks out Thorin.
******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 5 2014, 2:19pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 5 2014, 2:19pm
Post #13 of 14
(1580 views)
Shortcut
|
I failed to note that in my response, but you are absolutely correct.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 5 2014, 2:38pm
Post #14 of 14
(1578 views)
Shortcut
|
It shows Gandalf is more in control of the situation, and indeed with the mention of the need of a burglar indicates he pretty much has the whole thing already planned.
It also increases sympathy for Thorin as it shows he didn't come asking for help, so those moments of intractability he shows along the way are more understandable and thus more forgivable.
Basically the change makes Gandalf look wiser and Thorin less of a jerk, though it does lessen the seeming influence of the Higher Powers.
******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah
|
|
|
|
|
