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boldog
Nargothrond
May 15 2014, 8:20am
Post #1 of 9
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So Orcrist is aparrently the sword used by Ecthelion
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Okay ive been meaning to post this for a while, but anyway.
I purchased a prop replica of Orcrist, and it is a beautiful blade! I feel like thorin when i hold it lol.
But what got my attention is on the certificate of authenticity, it tells a fair amount of history of the blade. One thing it mentions that blew my mind away, was that it Was the sword used by Ecthelion which slew Gothmog lord of Balrogs in Gondolin!!!
I really, really, Love this history behind the blade, even if it is made up. But is it?
Did Tolkien mention anywhere that Orcrist belonged to Ecthelion once upon a time?
And With this information on the blade, how did they gain the rights to mention that? It is a movie prop, so It obviously is made in conjunction with PJs idea on the film.
What do you think??
I believe that Azog and Bolg are possibly the only two orcs who may be an exception to the typical evil nature of an orc. Azog had brought up his son, well enough that he actually acknowledges him as his own son. That is a first for any orc. And Bolg sets out to march upon Erebor in vengeance of his fathers death. How many orcs will Try and avenge another dead orc? Most will just forget about the dead one. This gives me hope that Orcs, have some traits of good in them, even if it is small aspects.
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BlackFox
Gondolin
May 15 2014, 8:36am
Post #2 of 9
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As the "mate" to King Turgon's sword Glamdring, Orcrist was likely borne by a high ranking lord in the King's entourage. Since Maeglin presumably still had his father's sword, Anguirel, it was not his. Duilin bore a bow, while Galdor carried a club and Rog a mace. Tuor seems to have come to Gondolin after Glamdring had been forged, and if this was the mate it should have been forged before his arrival as well. In any case, Tuor bore an axe, not a sword. Glorfindel died outside of the city; Egalmoth wielded a curved-blade, most likely a falchion; in any case, Orcrist was not curved and Egalmoth survived during the Fall of Gondolin. Salgant was a lesser lord and was feeble and subservient to Maeglin. Ecthelion of the Fountain perished in Gondolin as he slew Gothmog, even though he fell into the Fountain of the King, his hands were greatly wounded before meeting Gothmog and sword dropped, so Orcrist might be left in the city and picked up by one of the enemies possibly by a dragon. Another possibility is Penlod, however, who's house ( House of the Tower of Snow) was lesser in status than Ecthelion's ( House of the Fountain). ( http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcrist)
"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau
(This post was edited by BlackFox on May 15 2014, 8:39am)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
May 15 2014, 9:23am
Post #3 of 9
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DarkJackal and I put our heads together ....
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And wrote this short essay titled: Who was the original owner of Orcrist?, and we later used it for the very first TORn Amateur Symposium. Using little fragments of information (mainly from the HoME) we came to the conclusion that Ecthelion was the most likely owner of the sword.
They normally get away with fleeting references - mentions of Morgoth, Beren, Luthien, Ungoliant, the Blue Wizards, and the Quest of Erebor prologue scene haven't caused problems, that I'm aware of. Presumably because anything even remotely mentioned in the LOTR/TH books can be used?
(This post was edited by DanielLB on May 15 2014, 9:31am)
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Elthir
Hithlum
May 15 2014, 12:56pm
Post #4 of 9
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And, while no offense to Tolkien Gateway [the section posted by the elegantly snouted Black Fox], or DarkJackal's theory...
... and not that anyone said otherwise, but both conjectural essays are based on characters and details from The Book of Lost Tales, a very early version of the Fall of Gondolin, which [generally speaking] contains characters and conceptions that are out of keeping with Tolkien's later vision of Middle-earth.
In my opinion we can't even be sure that some of the characters mentioned in this early tale were to 'still exist' in a post-Lord of the Rings world, much less the details of what weapons they bore. And yes, it's the only long prose version of The Fall of Gondolin that Tolkien ever wrote ['completed' in a sense], so whatareyagonnado I guess, but I think it should be emphasized...
... that these theories are largely based on a work that Tolkien was arguably going to refer to for a general frame of reference. The only updated long prose Fall of Gondolin appears in Unfinished tales, [Of Tuor And His Coming To Gondolin] and itself gets no where near to describing all the characters involved or what weapons they bore.
I'm just sayin 
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 15 2014, 1:04pm)
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Elthir
Hithlum
May 15 2014, 1:18pm
Post #5 of 9
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One thing it mentions that blew my mind away, was that it Was the sword used by Ecthelion which slew Gothmog lord of Balrogs in Gondolin!!!
Incidentally, in the very early Fall of Gondolin [Book of Lost Tales] Ecthelion slew his Balrog by driving a spike, atop his helmet, into the Balrog, and the two adversaries drowned in a fountain. He had lost his weapon, receiving: '... rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the fountain, fairest of all the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast...'
And perhaps notably, in the much much later version [again see UT], Tolkien describes Ecthelion's spiked helm well before the battle of Gondolin begins.
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 15 2014, 1:22pm)
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Snowghost77
Menegroth
May 15 2014, 7:13pm
Post #7 of 9
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As a true and tolkien history buff. ...
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I love and enjoy all the work all of you guys do and just wanted you all to know it's much appreciated! !
You guys are awesome!
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget you
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Yngwulff
Mithlond
May 16 2014, 2:49am
Post #8 of 9
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So the general consensus is that he (Ecthelion) slew Gothmog with his helm, after dropping Orcrist, and that it was most likely his sword?
“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
(This post was edited by Yngwulff on May 16 2014, 2:49am)
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Elthir
Hithlum
May 16 2014, 3:31pm
Post #9 of 9
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I can't agree with most likely...
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... again, keeping in mind what the external details are...
... within the assumption that Orcrist might belong to one of the leaders of the noted houses of Gondolin, the two articles above are looking at a version of a tale written before Tolkien had even imagined any sword named Orcrist existed [as found in The Hobbit].
There was no Third Age within the context of the early Fall of Gondolin for example, no Bilbo nor Hobbits, Elves were arguably 'rather short' by comparison to later ideas, Balrogs were numerous and rather more killable, and in the early version there were only Gnomes [Noldoli] in Gondolin, no 'Sindar' of the later tales of course [which Tolkien would later alter, putting many Sindar in Gondolin at one point, if seemingly forgetting this, or altering it again, in the very late Glorfindel texts], and so on...
... so based on the initial assumption, the essay then eliminates various leaders of these Houses based on an early set of descriptions, descriptions that we have no real idea Tolkien was going to necessarily keep decades later. And decades later, when Tolkien began to re-write the long prose Fall of Gondolin in the early 1950s, the reader actually meets Ecthelion before the story is abandoned: 'All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal.'
No mention of a sword named Orcrist, at least here; which sword now existed in Tolkien's imagination anyway. Was it going to be given to Ecthelion in the 1950s and noted later in the tale? Who knows? We find out some later details due to associated notes, like for example...
A) Turgon was going to be the tallest person in the world save Thingol -- yet according to even later text, Argon was seemingly taller than Turgon however. And according to the early Fall of Gondolin someone named 'Penlod' was 'tallest of Gnomes'.
B) Turgon would appear with 'a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone [ivory] sheath'
This wasn't noted in the early version. Anyway I'll pick a passage where the two stories can be compared:
Early FOG: Tuor and Voronwe find the outer gate, and entering it find a way, dark, rough going and circuituous, full of fearsome echoes, and they ran at times, fearing Melko's goblins, till they perceived it was the deceit of the place. And making for a gleam of light they came to another gate, through which they passed into the sunlight, but instantly a great gong rang out and they were surrounded by 'warriors in steel', and then they meet the Chief of the Guard of the Gondothlim, who tells them the names of Gondolin and allows them to pass on to the city, and Tuor and Voronwe now pass over the plain to the city.
1950s FOG [or 'Later Tuor']: Tuor and Voronwe find the outer 'gate', entering it there was no light, but all was at first silent, until Voronwe spoke, which awoke echoes that were enlarged and multiplied, and when the echoes died a voice was heard in the Elven-tongue commanding them not to stir. Elemmakil [Captain of the Guard] speaks to them, looks at them in the light of his lamp, and Noldor 'mail-clad and armed' stepped out of the darkness, and they were led to the wooden gate -- the first of various gates of course.
So the two versions, separated by decades of real time [in Tolkien's life] are alike in ways, but not wholly alike in detail, and in some ways are notably different. Christopher Tolkien comments about the array of the Gondothlim, for instance, from which description the two essays above [cited or linked to in this thread] take their details: 'Doubtless, if my father had continued the later Tuor, much would have re-emerged, however changed, if we judge by the rich 'heraldic' descriptions of the great gates and their guards in the Orfalch Echor.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Array of the Gondothlim, The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales II
So to my mind there are too many assumptions here to say 'most likely'. Possible? Or course, but in my opinion we can't even be certain that Ecthelion will slay his 'new and updated' Balrog in the exact same fashion -- yet we know Tolkien has retained the 'spike' upon his helm, which is something that might point [no pun intended] to the same basic idea.
Well okay... pun intended. I admit it 
Again, not that the writers of these texts do not and did not realize that they are only dealing in theories. They clearly do realize this, but again I think we are well away from 'most likely' given all the considerations here.
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 16 2014, 3:45pm)
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Why, thank you!
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