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ProudFeet
Nevrast
Jan 7 2016, 5:55pm
Post #1 of 53
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Smaug knowing Thorin's identity
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This seems like a topic that may have come up before, so apologies if that's the case, but it's always confused me during the Bilbo/Smaug confrontation as to how exactly Smaug knows of Thorin, or more importantly, "Oakenshield". We know that in the context of the movie-verse, as soon as Smaug took the Lonely Mountain, there he stayed until he is awoken 60 years later by Bilbo. In the book we are told that Smaug frequently stole away in the night to hunt and listen in to the latest news of Middle Earth and its people. Smaug knowing Thorin's identity in the films therefore makes no sense. In the movies, the Battle of Azanulbizar takes place following Smaug's claiming of the Mountain, which is the event in which Thorin obtains his nickname of Oakenshield. Was this just an oversight of the screenwriters or can someone please offer an explanation. I'd like to know regarding my fan edit. Currently I have that exchange removed due to this inconsistency, although I'd love to add it back in as it's amazing seeing Smaug trying to make Bilbo doubt himself regarding his companions.
(This post was edited by ProudFeet on Jan 7 2016, 6:09pm)
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Jan 7 2016, 6:11pm
Post #2 of 53
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We know that in the context of the movie-verse, as soon ass Smaug took the Lonely Mountain, there he stayed until he is awoken 60 years later by Bilbo. Smaug have been in Erebor longer then 60 years, it is more like 200 years. Smaug has not been seen for 60 years but it dose not mean that the last time some one saw him was when he attacked Erebor.
Smaug knowing Thorin's identity in the films therefore makes no sense. In the movies, the Battle of Azanulbizar takes place following Smaug's claiming of the Mountain, which is the event in which Thorin obtains his nickname of Oakenshield. Was this just an oversight of the screenwriters or can someone please offer an explanation. I'd like to know regarding my fan edit. Currently I have that exchange removed due to this inconsistency, although I'd love to add it back in as it's amazing seeing Smaug trying to make Bilbo doubt himself regarding his companions. Sauron. Both Gandalf and Thrain are hinting that Sauron and Smaug are working together, so Smaug has got the information from Sauron. And I defiantly think you should have the scene in, it is a great scene.
(This post was edited by Smaug the iron on Jan 7 2016, 6:21pm)
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Lindele
Mithlond
Jan 7 2016, 6:12pm
Post #3 of 53
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and fairly obvious to me...Smaug and Sauron have some sort of mental connection, they've talked to each other (in the movie universe)...therefore I can believe that he'd know a lot of things that he otherwise may not have.
If not for that, it would be a little strange for Smaug to know about 'Oakenshield'....
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 7 2016, 6:39pm
Post #4 of 53
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Thorin is younger in the films than in the books, but Smaug has still occupied Erebor for at least 100 years, and maybe as much as 150 years. It is just that he was last known to have left the Mountain 60 years ago.
The dragon might have also learned of Oakenshield from Sauron or his servants.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 7 2016, 6:42pm)
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Sarahbor
Menegroth
Jan 7 2016, 8:05pm
Post #5 of 53
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As others have said, Smaug has been in Erebor for 100+ years, but left 60 years ago and has been asleep since. Given that Sauron and the orcs were in league with Smaug, and that the orcs only seem to refer to Thorin as "Oakenshield" (perhaps because Black Speech doesn't have a th sound), it's not implausible that Smaug would've learned of his byname from them while he was out and about, especially if it's the only name they really use.
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Jan 7 2016, 8:26pm
Post #6 of 53
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and that the orcs only seem to refer to Thorin as "Oakenshield" (perhaps because Black Speech doesn't have a th sound), Azog dose say Thorin's name in the out of the Frying-Pan scene in AUJ.
" Do you smell it? The scent of fear? I remember your father reeked of it Thorin son of Thrain".
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Sarahbor
Menegroth
Jan 7 2016, 8:57pm
Post #7 of 53
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That was probably because he was talking directly to Thorin and because he just mentioned his father, and even then it sounded like he didn't pronounce the th. Among the orcs and Sauron he just calls him "Oakenshield."
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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Shagrat
Mithlond
Jan 8 2016, 9:56am
Post #8 of 53
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Confirming many people's suspicions, the recent Chronicles book explains that they were going to use the Palantir to establish that Sauron and Smaug had been in contact, and that is how Smaug knew about Thorin and his plan. That this scene was supposed to take place shortly before they enter Erebor further underlines this. They should really have left it in, because otherwise these kinds of questions would not have to be asked.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Jan 8 2016, 10:51am
Post #10 of 53
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It is explained in the Art of War book. I got mine yesterday and there is so much fun and interesting things to read in it.
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Jan 8 2016, 2:12pm
Post #12 of 53
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Smaug sacked Erebor in 2770 and was killed by Bard in 2941.
That’s 171 years total.
Discounting the 60-odd years he hadn’t been seen we still have 111 years of Smaug inhabiting Erebor. (2770-2881)
First of all he most likely appeared to snack on the occasional sheep or pony.
Secondly, could he not, in the beginning have taken some prisoners and learned a few names from them before having an occasional Dwarf snack? 
Thus we don't need no dang palantir or covert visits by orcs or minions of Sauron. 
'When I was young I found out that the big toe always ends up making a hole in a sock.
So I stopped wearing socks.'
- Albert Einstein
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ThorinsNemesis
Menegroth
Jan 8 2016, 2:56pm
Post #13 of 53
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Smaug would take prisoners and learn about Oakenshield and his plan from them; before the sixty years Thorin still hadn't began planning the journey to Erebor. Even if we exclude that, I don't believe there would be any Dwarves hanging around Erebor while Smaug was there (and he wouldn go to the Iron Hills for a 'Dwarf snack').
At least to me the palantir would have made more sense - after all, Smaug is an Inteligent and malicious creature and Sauron connecting with him is not so impossible; the palantir scene would have been an easy and interesting way of solving the issue .
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 8 2016, 3:53pm
Post #14 of 53
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If there's a Lineage of Durin tapestry in a Lake-town junk store there's bound to be one or more in Erebor itself. Such fine items would be part of Smaug's treasure, and a dragon is *very* familar with his treasure. So, like Bard, Smaug would know about Thorin from the tapestry. (There might even be murals and such.)
As for knowing the name "Oakenshield", I doubt Bilbo was the first thief to visit Smaug. (There is some dialogue by Smaug in the book that seems to indicate such.) A thief/bard may have had to sing for his supper (or rather sing to avoid being supper) and told the story of the Battle of Azanulbizar and how Thorin received his sobriquet.
******************************************
Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 8 2016, 3:58pm
Post #15 of 53
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Smaug sacked Erebor in 2770 and was killed by Bard in 2941.
Yes, according to Tolkien. Thorin has been made younger in the films and, consequently, Smaug's attack on Erebor occurred at a later date. Possibly it was not too much later -- a matter of 20 to 25 years -- as the movie Appendices hint that the Battle of Moria might have still taken place in TA 2799.
Also, Peter Jackson altered the year of Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday to 3000 (from 3001) which changes the year of the Quest of Erebor to 2940.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 8 2016, 4:04pm
Post #16 of 53
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During his rare excursions outdoors, Smaug could have learned of the Battle of Moria and Thorin's nickname of Oakenshield. I can easily see him getting news out of a potential meal by promising (and probably not delivering) mercy. You are right that he couldn't have heard about Thorin's intensions at that time; those he would have had to have been told about by Sauron or his servants.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Jan 8 2016, 9:35pm
Post #17 of 53
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I don’t believe . . Smaug would take prisoners and learn about Oakenshield and his plan from them; before the sixty years Thorin still hadn't began planning the journey to Erebor. Even if we exclude that, I don't believe there would be any Dwarves hanging around Erebor while Smaug was there (and he wouldn go to the Iron Hills for a 'Dwarf snack'). Fair enough. But let’s take another look:
Thorin was born in 2746. The Battle of Azanulbizar was in 2799 when Thorin was but 58 years old and he got the tag “Oakenshield”. In 2941, when Thorin was killed he was 195 years old.
Smaug sacked Erebor in 2770 and the Battle of Azanulbizar was in 2799. So long before the BOFA in 2941 Thorin would have been one of the heroes of Azanulbizar, and Smaug would have several ways, and plenty of time to learn the name of “Thorin” and “Oakenshield”. Accounting for Smaug’s ‘sleeping’ years this gives us from 2799 (Azanulbizar) -2881 (Smaug begins his 60 year nappy (2881-2941)). This gives Smaug about 82 years (from 2799-2881) to learn the name of ‘Thorin Oakenshield’.
It’s inconceivable to this humble poster that ALL the Dwarves of Erebor were either killed or escaped from Erebor in 2770. It seems logical that at least a couple would have had to have hidden in nooks and crannies, or rooms and tunnels to be captured by Smaug. Then would come torture or, as likely, simple questioning. As dragons were known to have a terrifying countenance and a mesmerizing gaze which would stare into the very soul of their hapless victims, simple torture probably would not be necessary. Even our Bilbo felt the lure of the dragon-spell, and (even though invisible) he, at one point, ’. . . trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. . . ‘
Then we have Darkstone’s (jokingly)‘Thorin tapestry’. Hey, why not! I can envision the famous oak-branch being hung in a place of honor in some mathom-type room in Erebor.
Also Otaku’s ‘ . . . rare excursions outdoors, Smaug could have learned of the Battle of Moria and Thorin's nickname of Oakenshield.
At least to me the palantir would have made more sense - after all, Smaug is an Inteligent and malicious creature and Sauron connecting with him is not so impossible; the palantir scene would have been an easy and interesting way of solving the issue .
'When I was young I found out that the big toe always ends up making a hole in a sock.
So I stopped wearing socks.'
- Albert Einstein
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ThorinsNemesis
Menegroth
Jan 8 2016, 10:21pm
Post #18 of 53
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When i said about the palantir
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I didn't mean that Smaug had another palantir - maybe Sauron would have revealed to Gandalf that he had been communicating telephaticaly with Smaug when Gandalf got the vision.
I know that some Dwarves hid in Erebor after its fall, but they don't have any logical way of hearing about the Battle of Azanulbizar, so I don't think that's a viable option either.
About the tapestry, after the Battle of Azanulbizar maybe some people began desiring the return of the king under the Mountain, so they made that tapestry (at least IMO that happened); Smaug could have often gone hunting, but I don't think he would have caught anything besides animals, and even if he had caught a human (or Dwarf) I don't think they would tell him exactly about Oakenshield.
Anyway, as these questions are left to the imagination, everyone can have a different opinion I guess.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 9 2016, 1:00am
Post #19 of 53
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Okay, but this isn't Tolkien's legendarium
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Fair enough. But let’s take another look:
Thorin was born in 2746. The Battle of Azanulbizar was in 2799 when Thorin was but 58 years old and he got the tag “Oakenshield”. In 2941, when Thorin was killed he was 195 years old.
Smaug sacked Erebor in 2770 and the Battle of Azanulbizar was in 2799. So long before the BOFA in 2941 Thorin would have been one of the heroes of Azanulbizar, and Smaug would have several ways, and plenty of time to learn the name of “Thorin” and “Oakenshield”. Accounting for Smaug’s ‘sleeping’ years this gives us from 2799 (Azanulbizar) -2881 (Smaug begins his 60 year nappy (2881-2941)). This gives Smaug about 82 years (from 2799-2881) to learn the name of ‘Thorin Oakenshield’.
We still need to separate the book from the films. We have a younger Thorin, probably born twenty or twenty-five years later, maybe more. The Battle of Moria might have been in 2799 or it might have been later. Smaug probably occupied Erebor only a few years before that, but definitely not in 2770. And the Quest of Erebor takes place in 2940 instead of 2941 (one of the smaller changes).
It’s inconceivable to this humble poster that ALL the Dwarves of Erebor were either killed or escaped from Erebor in 2770. It seems logical that at least a couple would have had to have hidden in nooks and crannies, or rooms and tunnels to be captured by Smaug. Then would come torture or, as likely, simple questioning.
Fair enough, but no Dwarves trapped in Erebor when Smaug invaded the Mountain would have known about Thorin's nickname of Oakenshield; he had not yet acquired it!
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Milieuterrien
Nargothrond
Jan 9 2016, 1:20am
Post #20 of 53
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For me, obviously Sauron has got many means
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to communicate with dragons, as Sauron was a servant of Morgoth and Morgoth used many dragons in his battles.
If Sauron or Morgoth are able to forge magical rings and devices such as Palantirs, there's no doubt they can forge other devices not obligatory revealed to the knowledge of passers-by, including Tolkien's readers 
In the movie, PJ shows that Smaug has more than a hint of the possession of the Ring by Bilbo, and he introduces a discussion between Bilbo and Smaug where Smaug explicitely considers the interest of letting Thorin get the Arkenstone and turn mad.
Considering the Ring itself Smaug may also deliberately chose to let Bilbo keep it during his inquiry, for the bearer of such Ring may become or be a creature in the hands of Sauron. That's why Smaug needs to seek further about Bilbo, his intentions and capacities : don't forget that Smaug bows to no one, including Sauron.
An interesting hypothesis would be to explore the Will of the Ring itself. Why in the first place did it 'decide' to leave Gollum as soon as another Hobbit approached ? Bilbo bearing the Ring which helped him to save the dwarves almost eaten by the spiders could be instrumental... for the Ring to subtly approach Smaug (giving Bilbo the 'courage' to do so) and provoke his attack against Laketown.
Only the death of Smaug, killed by Bard, couldn't be anticipated by Sauron... unless Sauron decided to attack whatever the outcome of Smaug's attack, since other dragons had been killed before by the hands of human heroes.
Open fields here.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jan 9 2016, 1:25am)
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Jan 9 2016, 4:27am
Post #21 of 53
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Okay, but this isn't Tolkien's legendarium For sure!
As a larger and larger percentage of TORn posts concern the movies I feel it my duty and option to occasionally encroach with some Truth. Yes, I know, this is a movie board with a tad of book; and yes the Reading Room is still mostly ‘reading’ but with more and more movie comments . Not complaining (much), just stating facts. If the films inspire folks to read the books, I say “Ring-a-dong-dillo!” They are in for a real treat!
Fair enough, but no Dwarves trapped in Erebor when Smaug invaded the Mountain would have known about Thorin's nickname of Oakenshield; he had not yet acquired it!
Yes, I was quite unclear here, simply attempting to dispute ThorinsNemesis’ claim that he didn’t believe that Smaug would have taken any prisoners.
Yet – point to Otaku!
'When I was young I found out that the big toe always ends up making a hole in a sock.
So I stopped wearing socks.'
- Albert Einstein
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 9 2016, 1:40pm
Post #22 of 53
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If Sauron or Morgoth are able to forge magical rings and devices such as Palantirs, there's no doubt they can forge other devices not obligatory revealed to the knowledge of passers-by...
Whatever magical devices Morgoth and/or Sauron might have created, as far as I know neither one ever crafted a palantír. The palantíri were all wrought by the Noldor in Eldamar.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Milieuterrien
Nargothrond
Jan 9 2016, 10:13pm
Post #23 of 53
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I didn't know well about the Stones and their story. Weird to think that Sauron didn't use a device of his own to communicate IMO.
I guess prof. Tolkien wanted something lighter than a TV broadcast in his ME, as he couldn't find birds or moths satisfactory enough after the hobbit experience. Is there anything about the palantiri in the Silmarilion, written when he was young ? I doubt so...
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jan 9 2016, 11:05pm
Post #24 of 53
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The palantíri were crafted to be able to communicate with each other. Once Sauron captured the Ithil-stone he could use it to corrupt or capture the minds of any others using a palantír. That is how Saruman fell to him and how Denethor was driven to madness and despair.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Jan 10 2016, 4:06am
Post #25 of 53
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UT The Palantiri:
. . . only the surveyor using the Master Stone, of Osgiliath could ‘eavesedrop’. While two of the other Stones were in response, the third would find them both blank.
. . . the distinction between another respondent Stone and its ‘surveyor’, . . .
The palantiri could not themselves survey men’s minds, at unawares or unwilling; for the transference of thought depended on the wills of the user on either side, and thought (received as speech) was only transmittable by one Stone to another in accord.
[Note 31]
‘Two persons, each using a Stone “in accord” with the other, could converse, . . .
(My bold)
And, of course the Stone of Elendil looked only West to the Undying Lands.
Yes, Sauron had great powers, but Aragorn wrested the Orthanc-stone to his own will. The corruptible can be corrupted.
'When I was young I found out that the big toe always ends up making a hole in a sock.
So I stopped wearing socks.'
- Albert Einstein
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