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Legomir
Ossiriand
Jan 7 2016, 1:34am
Post #1 of 29
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Sebastian's Fate
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So I just recently got a chance to page through the last Hobbit Chronicles book, The Art of War, and read about what might be the most emotionally devastating thing in all three Hobbit films. I haven't seen it discussed here, so I thought I'd throw it out here for those who don't know.
In the scene where the Orcs are going into the tunnels and Azog is talking with a lieutenant, he's feeding his White Warg. According to the book, it's actually Sebastian the Hedgehog wriggling at the end of Azog's sword and being fed to it.
It's a tiny little that's kind of horrible but also totally something that I can see the film crew doing (black humor seems to be big in New Zealand). I checked the film because I didn't believe it at first, and sure enough, there's the hedgehog. Did anyone else notice this?
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LSF
Mithlond
Jan 7 2016, 1:43am
Post #2 of 29
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I read that, and chose to believe it's just a random hedgehog they found along the way. They all looked the same anyway.
Though a scene of Azog coming across Radagast's house on the march to erebor and burning it would be interesting. Although it looks like it would be a detour to do it.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Jan 7 2016, 1:55am
Post #3 of 29
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Though a scene of Azog coming across Radagast's house on the march to erebor and burning it would be interesting. Although it looks like it would be a detour to do it. We see Rhosgobel when Radagast gives Gandalf his staff and it looks fine, and when that scene is happening Azog is already more then halfway to Erebor.
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LSF
Mithlond
Jan 7 2016, 2:00am
Post #4 of 29
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But i still think it could be a cool idea if it had happened. But like i said, would've been a detour on the way.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Dor-Lomin
Jan 7 2016, 2:07am
Post #5 of 29
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Not confirmed in the film...didn't happen...
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There's no way on this green earth I would ever take that for canon. I have a fair amount of issues with the films, but that would push me firmly into the negative column.
The Hobbit is a fairy tale. You don't kill the hero in fairy tales. 
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Legomir
Ossiriand
Jan 7 2016, 2:10am
Post #6 of 29
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Most of the people I've talked to about it have basically said, "Shut up, we'll never believe that's Sebastian." So we'll just say it's a random hedgehog they picked up on the way. An evil hedgehog, who deserved it.
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Sarahbor
Menegroth
Jan 7 2016, 4:50am
Post #7 of 29
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We don't know for sure where Rhosgobel is located, because Tolkien seems to have given two different descriptions. In the Treason of Isengard it is said to be located between the Carrock and the Forest Road, yet on a different map in the same work it is placed just southeast of the Gladden Fields. Both of these are north of Dol Guldur (the first is WAY north of DG). Why on earth would Azog waste time traveling miles off course just to grab a hedgehog from a wizard's house? Makes no sense.
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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Eruwestial37
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2016, 5:53am
Post #8 of 29
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I won't believe it.
Sebastian is the very reason I brought home a baby hedgehog from a breeder today. Looks just like him, (IMO).
As for there being 'evil hedgehogs'....nope, not that either. They are too cute to be evil. I hate Azog even more now. It does make me conflicted, however, as I always (used to) like his warg.
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Starling
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 7:02am
Post #9 of 29
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That is hard to get my head around - they are a pest here.
I do love them, even though I shouldn't.
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2016, 7:19am
Post #10 of 29
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If it's not explicitly stated or implied by the film itself
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Then it's not the same one. Fair to imagine it is (if... that... is your thing, I guess), but it is not the same hedgehog for me.
Bilbo: These are dark days.
Bofur: Dark days indeed.
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Eruwestial37
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2016, 7:48am
Post #11 of 29
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Here in the US they are considered exotic pets. The ones here are a hybrid of two African species. They are bred in many different colors-92 at last count. There are even shows sanctioned by the International Hedgehog Association.
My little one's name is Fezz and he's six weeks old. He's my first hedgie.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 10:44am
Post #12 of 29
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Rest easy, it's not Sebastian....
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The way that line is worded in the book - "As the longer version of this macabre scene was conceived, it was to begin with a close-up of Sebastian....." means that this is something they didn't do: "it was to begin", but it didn't. It wasn't Sebastian. I expect they wanted to show Azog feed the Warg because it's a very natural action - makes him look more real. Then there was a question of what the food would be and some twisted soul stuck a hedgehog in. It's just their sense of humour. There's a similar moment in the EE appendices of Fellowship of the Ring when they joke about Bill the Pony being taken by the Watcher in the Water.
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adt100
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2016, 11:57am
Post #13 of 29
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That lines seems to confirm it to me...
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I haven't re-watched the scene in question or seen the section in the book. However, to me that makes it pretty explicit that Sebastian is the hedgehog used and that in the 'longer version' they were going to start with a close-up of Sebastian (the hedgehog). In the end they didn't bother going with the longer version including close-up and simply had the wide shot. But it's still Sebastian.
Not quite sure why some people seem to be taking this as a 'serious' issue though, in terms of where Azog was and why he would detour to Rhosgobel. WETA digital clearly thought it was just an amusing little detail that they'd use the same CGI hedgehog to feed Azog. Call it an 'in-joke'. It has no relation to the plot whatsoever and doesn't matter the 'realism' of having Azog actually finding Sebastian.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 12:11pm
Post #14 of 29
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On a point of English grammar, not hedgehogs. "This was to begin..." means that it didn't.
I don't think any of this is the least bit serious. 'In-joke' is about right - it's typical of their humour.
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Imladris18
Menegroth
Jan 7 2016, 3:44pm
Post #16 of 29
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The fact that they were even considering filming a longer version is more disturbing to me...
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What possible purpose would that scene serve? Having a little in-joke about using the same, barely noticable CG model is one thing, but to deliberately make it a point to everyone that the cute little hedgehog from film one is now somehow presumably hundreds of miles away just to be stabbed by Azog and fed to a warg? That's a scene that they were debating wasting time on? What?
(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Jan 7 2016, 3:45pm)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 4:38pm
Post #17 of 29
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I really don't think they were....
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Honestly, the whole thing comes across as a joke. If you think about it, why on earth would they even consider a longer version of that scene? It wouldn't serve any purpose, and even in close-up a hedgehog is just a hedgehog.
It doesn't make any sense. On the other hand, It's very easy to imagine a couple the folk in Weta digital working against the clock to complete the scene and using a few frames of animation that already had, knowing it would be too small to be noticeable - then making jokes among themselves about it. In the pressure they work under they'd need to laugh to keep going and this is very much their sense of humour. I bet they'd be laughing themselves silly now if they knew people were actually discussing it!
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 7 2016, 5:41pm
Post #18 of 29
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Doug Adams tweeted recently that perhaps one day he'll talk about the music written for the scene where Azog kills Sebastian.
The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.
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Starling
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 6:22pm
Post #19 of 29
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You learn something new every day.
Good luck with the new edition to your family. 
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Starling
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 6:25pm
Post #20 of 29
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new options for pest control?
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Avandel
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 6:42pm
Post #21 of 29
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Tho of course the wargs would have been eating something "meaty" as would the dwarves and men, for that matter.
Still, that was a sly, nasty little touch in the films . I think I'll write a fan-fic where in the afterlife Azog is a cricket
trapped in a house, and has spent a desperate 72 hours dodging the family pet:
"Azog the Cricket, to the disgust of the magnificent feline Thorin, had managed to gather his tattered back legs
for one last mighty leap through the door when Thorin's owner came home and grabbed the cat in a hug.
Thorin watched impassively from over the shoulder of the besotted human hugging him as Azog, dizzy from the leap
that had rammed him into the flower pot on the step, dragged himself away.
"Stupid human", thought Thorin, nobly digging his claws into his owner's coat for purchase, as the human continued to drool into his
fur and babble away about how gorgeous he was, and how beautiful. "Still, she is both loyal and completely correct about
how magnificent I am, and in her besottedness never fails to ply me with the most tasty treats to win my favor. I wonder if
I should refuse to eat again, so that she will open multiple cans in desperation to please me. Decisions, decisions...."
Thorin's fur blew in the draft as the owner closed the door, perfectly haloing his powerful body and lustrous eyes as his owner carried him
into the kitchen...."Mommy got some special kitty treats for her boy, yes she did....."
Meanwhile Azog the Cricket huddled against the cold flowerpot, the sides of his abdomen billowing. He desperately needed to find some
dry leaves, and cover, but he could barely move with the chill. But, he thought, just a little effort, just drop over the side of the step, there
were the bushes, with plenty of sticks and blown leaves. Azog achingly forced himself across the cold concrete. Finally, finally, leaving
a small dribbling trail behind, he let himself fall.
Azog again rested in the crisp leaves. Just the tiniest bit farther....the leaves near the house....there was that opening, where it was warmer
from the home's heating system. There would be food, and protection from the cold.
But the thing is, as Thorin well knew, caves in the wilderness are seldom unoccupied....
Epilogue:
But, in the unending circle of life, Azog would once again be reincarnated, as slime mold, which was
later scraped onto a glass slide and used in the community college freshmen biology class.
(Thorin, in time, was reincarnated as a thoroughbred that took the Triple Crown and is considered the pinnacle of his breed, with
a remarkably luxurious mane and tail that the winds always seemed to fan into the most becoming patterns.
The stallion would serve as a model for countless statues and works of art, due to his beauty and #Majestic carriage.)
The hedgehog later threw up its unexpected cricket meal, but was compensated by Thorin's owner with many cans
of cat food that had been disdainfully rejected by the noble feline Thorin.
She later adopted the hedgehog "He's SOOOOO CUUUUUUUUUTE!" and named him Sebastian, for the
Hobbit movies. Thorin and Sebastian became the best of friends, as Thorin felt that Sebastian had
awesome hair that reminded him of someone from a former life.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Jan 7 2016, 8:18pm
Post #22 of 29
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Hmm, that was his wife and he did have his revenge when Radagast turned him into
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a giant Eagle whom he rode to attack the orcs.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 7 2016, 8:18pm)
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Imladris18
Menegroth
Jan 8 2016, 3:19pm
Post #23 of 29
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He wasn't saying there was music written for it.
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Just that the scene did exist at one time and was cut.
I have no doubt that the hedgehog that made it to the film is Sabastian's CGI model, it's therefore "Sebastian" in that sense. It's way too baffling and absurd for me to accept more than that...
My only thought would be there was going to be more of a payoff to where Gandalf tells Radagast to "Gather all birds, beasts" etc, and Radagast essentially gets all the woodland creatures to go to Erebor (including Sebastian) to help instead of just the eagles. It's all so out of place... thank goodness it at least didn't make it to the movie and we're only left with a little in-joke easter egg.
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Earl
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 9 2016, 6:47am
Post #25 of 29
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I'm pretty sure there must have been music written for it
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Doug pretty much talks about deleted scenes in the context of unused music. At least from what I know of him. And that's what his book is about - the music. In this case he was referring to his book on the music of the Hobbit films, and stuff he might discuss in it. I highly doubt he'd discuss an unused scene if the discussion didn't involve music.
The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.
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Agree
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