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blacksmoke
Registered User
Jun 7 2008, 8:24am
Post #1 of 18
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Scared About The Dwarves
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Gimli was perfect in FOTR but then they turned him into a complete moron for the sake of comic relief for the sequels. I don't want the dwarves in the Hobbit to be the same. One comic relief guy could work but I don't want them all to be portrayed as idiots just to get cheap laughs from the audience. Who is with me?
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overlithe64
Ossiriand
Jun 7 2008, 2:39pm
Post #2 of 18
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And I think that PJ and GDT would see that as well...too much of anything is just that too much.
Holding my breath and trusting in the process....fingers and toes crossed as well....
I am not obsessed... If I am, I am in excellent company.
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Owain
Dor-Lomin
Jun 7 2008, 4:37pm
Post #3 of 18
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I do agree that they shouldn't be portrayed as "idiots"...
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Fickle might be more appropriate. In my experiences of reading The Hobbit, they have always come across to me as somewhat immature (in a negative sense).
- Complain a lot
- Get into trouble easily but look to others to bail them out
- Blame Bilbo for their problems/instead of taking responsibility (much like people are prone to do when they do something wrong)
- Are presented more as a group who follow the strongest breeze, rather than independent thinkers
As we know, Thorin is technically the "adult leader of the group" but in many ways he acts the most negatively.
It occurs to me that Gandalf, being very wise, brought Bilbo because he needed someone who could empathize with the dwarves during their journey, but help them to make good decisions or spur them to take responsibility for when they didn't.
Immaturity/ignorance are what make them at times comical to me. They keep stepping in it.
Some of the events are comedic, but having seen how GDT writes and directs actors in his previous films, I think we will see dynamic characters that exhibit a full palette of emotion
"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."
(This post was edited by Owain on Jun 7 2008, 4:46pm)
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merklynn
Menegroth
Jun 7 2008, 4:44pm
Post #4 of 18
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I'm with you in the sense that they should not be porteayed as all being there for comic relief. The Dwarven race needs to be given some integrity and grimness, and unfortunately Gimli was the only real look at dwarves we had in the LOTR film trilogy, and he ended up filling the role of most of the comic relief for lack of anyone else more suitable. Yes it is a cop out, but at the same time I found it mostly harmless and didn't really mind that much. But you are right, I don't want that line of thinking to represent all Dwarves, and Thorin's Company needs to have some credibility to it.
Bilbo will probably be the source of most of the humor and possibly Dwalin or Balin. As long as this is primarily from the original material (the book) then that is ok.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jun 7 2008, 6:06pm
Post #5 of 18
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They are supposed to be ridiculous.
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So is Bilbo, for that matter: he conveys the ridiculous in the modern, while Thorin & co. convey the ridiculous in the ancient. Thus the final conversation between Thorin and Bilbo is all the more moving, as each has come to see the worth in the other.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jun. 2-8 for "Flotsam and Jetsam".
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Owain
Dor-Lomin
Jun 7 2008, 6:31pm
Post #6 of 18
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Intesting contrast in the story between Bilbo and the Dwarves.
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The Dwarves know (in that it is part of their fiber and has directly effected them) the history of the Lonely Mountain, Smaug, and their lost treasure. They are resolved to recover the treasure in light of all the dangerous facts.
Bilbo knows what he is told. He has no interest in the adventure.
The dwarves connection and his detachment seem to provide the perfect contrast of interest and objectivity to see it through. (Thank you Gandalf)
I find it darkly comical that the dwarves are so passionate about retrieving the lost treasure but put Bilbo in all of the dangerous/pivotal situations in order to recover it. Thorin takes the, "this is what we are paying you to do approach" on more than one occasion; occasions that seem convenient in saving his own life.
It is only until the treasure is in the Dwarves grasp and greed poisons Thorin's mind that we see a "defend at all costs" attitude.
"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."
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merklynn
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Jun 7 2008, 9:17pm
Post #7 of 18
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Complain a lot
Get into trouble easily but look to others to bail them out Blame Bilbo for their problems/instead of taking responsibility (much like people are prone to do when they do something wrong)
Are presented more as a group who follow the strongest breeze, rather than independent thinkers
They do all the things you say, and it is my hope that their whiney natures and their unwillingness to deal with their own problems and send Bilbo instead will be shown in some kind of context. For example, I would like to see the Dwarves shown to be a great people, powerful warriors and skilled artisans. I think the best opportunity to set them up this way from the get go would be during Thorin's story at Bilbo's house about his history and how the Dwarves were driven out of Erebor. If the Dwarves are simply shown exactly as they appear in the books then they run the risk of becoming comic relief. The viewer is unlikely to be convinced they can take care of themselves or lift a finger to try and improve their situation.
I think much of this is down to Thorin's leadership. He seems to me to have tunnel vision focused solely on Erebor to the point that he has become inflexible. This should not reflect all the dwarves though, rather primarily Thorin who the others follow out of loyalty. Their respect for Thorin may explain their reluctance to show greater initiative as he stubbornly bosses them around they begrudgingly obey. So Bilbo is positioned perfectly to counter this flaw that Thorin might have doomed his entire company with. Bilbo can act more independently because Thorin is not his king. Showing Thorin as making bad calls due to his blind charge towards his goal might put the dwarves and their lack of initiative in context.
I just find it hard to believe that the dwarves (who are more comical and dependent in The Hobbit which is a part of its being a children's book) who built such great cities and defeated both Elves and Orcs alike, could be so pathetic. So The Hobbit needs to address this somehow that they will fit better into the LOTR more mature perspective.
(This post was edited by merklynn on Jun 7 2008, 9:21pm)
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 8 2008, 12:28am
Post #8 of 18
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Howdy and Welcome, blacksmoke! I agree
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I hope there's not too much of what would feel like a forced comic relief. I think the story already has plenty of inherent comedy throughout the story, and there are enough quiet moments to offset the intensity later in the story. It would be a bit much to have 12 comics and 1 (Thorin) straight-man... I mean... dwarf ;)
I'm so glad you're here to share in the anticipation! This is going to be a VERY long year as we wait to hear about casting!
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Owain
Dor-Lomin
Jun 8 2008, 6:04am
Post #9 of 18
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I just find it hard to believe that the dwarves (who are more comical and dependent in The Hobbit which is a part of its being a children's book) who built such great cities and defeated both Elves and Orcs alike, could be so pathetic. So The Hobbit needs to address this somehow that they will fit better into the LOTR more mature perspective. Greed seems to be woven throughout Tolkien's work. It is the venom that poisons and almost destroys The Hobbit's "fellowship". I believe Thorin is much like Boromir. His intentions would seem honorable (to restore his people to greatness) but his actions betray him (his betrayal and blind greed). Much like Boromir, it is only in his own self destruction that Thorin sees the error of his ways. I would be very interested in seeing a creative and succinct portrayal of the Dwarves in their full glory and Thorin's disillusionment. He is definitely a main character in the story... in fact one of the most dynamic. 
"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 8 2008, 6:33pm
Post #10 of 18
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Tolkien made them farcical and ridiculous in the book. I'm not sure any director could make them more ridiculous than Tolkien did. But of course this is very different from Tolkien's treatment of Gimli in LotR. That's one of many continuity problems between LotR and The Hobbit.
Note, however, that elves and men are also more ridiculous in The Hobbit than in LotR. Gandalf and Elrond and Beorn and Bard are exceptions, but most of the elves and men look just as ridiculous as the dwarves. And Bilbo, for the first half of the book, is the most ridiculous of all.
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SmeagoloftheStoors
Menegroth
Jun 9 2008, 7:46pm
Post #11 of 18
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looks at the characters as a whole I think he will see that he won't need the singular comic relief guy, but can rather rigidly adhire to the quirks of the characters to fill the dry time. I find not just the characters themselves amusing but also the chemestry within the group. None of the characters are so serious that laughs can't be had if they are anywhere close to the book.
Eglario Valar!
It's me!
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carrioncrow
Menegroth
Jun 10 2008, 12:08am
Post #12 of 18
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I'm not against using humor if it is in service to the film and at least implied by the books.
A bigger problem i think is the production details of the dwarven characters.
For LOTR, John Rhys Davies was burdened by heavy armor and burdensome prosthetics. This created health problems fro the actor and restricted his performance. These sacrifices made sense for LOTR because Gimli did not need to carry the story...and the film makers used this character design to obscure the seams when they were playing with the interaction between JRD, his doubles a characters representing other Middle Earth races.
But what worked well enough for LOTR creates a legacy that hamstrings The Hobbit film a bit. Here you have dwarves, in my understanding, who are traveling light for most of the story and with several characters (Thorin and Balin foremost) who carry ALOT of the story in their characterization and are at the emotional center of events.
Will the design team be willing (or even be allowed) to take that step of dialing back a bit from the establish Jackson-LOTR mental image/character design of Gimli for the sake of freeing up THIRTEEN(!) actors to sell the story at hand?
Of course i understand that a performance can overcome or even exploit prosthetics etc... but in this case the only reason for adding this layer of difficulty is to dovetail with the Jackson franchise at the expense IMHO of The Hobbit film
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Jun 10 2008, 12:31am
Post #13 of 18
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I’m so glad you brought this up.
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I’ve been thinking the same thing. I think the dwarves need a new redesign. I was never happy about the way Gimli looked. He reminded me to much of Worf on Star Trek.
I'm not against using humor if it is in service to the film and at least implied by the books.
A bigger problem i think is the production details of the dwarven characters.
For LOTR, John Rhys Davies was burdened by heavy armor and burdensome prosthetics. This created health problems fro the actor and restricted his performance. These sacrifices made sense for LOTR because Gimli did not need to carry the story...and the film makers used this character design to obscure the seams when they were playing with the interaction between JRD, his doubles a characters representing other Middle Earth races.
But what worked well enough for LOTR creates a legacy that hamstrings The Hobbit film a bit. Here you have dwarves, in my understanding, who are traveling light for most of the story and with several characters (Thorin and Balin foremost) who carry ALOT of the story in their characterization and are at the emotional center of events.
Will the design team be willing (or even be allowed) to take that step of dialing back a bit from the establish Jackson-LOTR mental image/character design of Gimli for the sake of freeing up THIRTEEN(!) actors to sell the story at hand?
Of course i understand that a performance can overcome or even exploit prosthetics etc... but in this case the only reason for adding this layer of difficulty is to dovetail with the Jackson franchise at the expense IMHO of The Hobbit film
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
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merklynn
Menegroth
Jun 10 2008, 1:10am
Post #14 of 18
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In the Dwarf ring scene in FOTR they do look a lot like Klingons! //
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(This post was edited by merklynn on Jun 10 2008, 1:10am)
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tattooed_dwarf
Ossiriand
Jun 10 2008, 8:07am
Post #15 of 18
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I was bit frustrated about Gimli always being bit too glumsy and silly. And then Legolas taking out mumakil and cavetroll, where Gimli was just rolling on the floor basically. But I htink there should not be only one dwarf who makes that comical relief. In book they all are bit comical at times, some more than others. I hope GDT and PJ notice this and make it work that you can take dwarves as seriously as let's say Aragorn or Theoden. But you know, now is time for dwarves to shine, no skinny elves stealing the show this time
(This post was edited by tattooed_dwarf on Jun 10 2008, 8:08am)
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Marionette
Nargothrond
Jun 10 2008, 4:28pm
Post #16 of 18
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AGREED! but I am more worried about...
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I am scared too, and very worried.
But this time, they have dwarves enough to chose who will be the funny one, as far as I remember some of those dwarves are funny some times, this time they are. And I love that of The Hobbit dwarves  I love those dwarves.
But not Thorin, or Balin, or the important, the strong ones.
I am truly worried, truly, about Thorin´s portrayal instead, he´s a multi dimensional character, he is not inside any of the stupid clichés people insist in finding everywhere, and they can make the same mistake they did with Denethor in LOTR trilogy  .
Thorin made a mistake, if I remember well, at least at the end we all can see he recognize his mistake and that he is not a bad person at all. At least I can understand Thorin very well.
But this time with The Hobbit we have Guillermo del Toro, a different person with a different view in all this, I think he can help with this, help with multi dimensional characters to not be ruined.
Let´s hope so.
"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
(This post was edited by Masquerade_Górtari on Jun 10 2008, 4:31pm)
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 12 2008, 11:48pm
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There was a rumor(?) about Jack Black playing Bilbo. (Humor, perhaps? It wasn't April 1st, I don't think.)
But I say he'd make an excellent dwarf! Can you see JB swinging a double-bladed axe around on-set?
Anywayz, angst becalmed. From what I've seen, GdT keeps his goofy-self well in check. ;)
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
(This post was edited by mwirkk on Jun 12 2008, 11:49pm)
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Anorien
Nargothrond
Jun 13 2008, 12:15am
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I liked Gimli in FOTR, in the other movies it seemed that they switched the characters of Legolas and Gimli that were described in the book. I think that in order to create a great experience for The Hobbit, the dwarves should have a little comic relief just so that they flow with the LOTR movies, but they should be noble to. If they just make people laugh, I don't think you would get much out of it. But I agree with the others, I think that PJ and the others would know better.
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