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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Apr 30 2008, 6:10am
Post #26 of 38
(238 views)
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Which is why Tolkien concludes it "off-screen".
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My theme for the day, apparently: the Battle of Five Armies is itself the catastrophe that resolves the conflict the Bilbo's grand effort was unable to avert. (The gift of the Arkenstone is a mini-climax that follows on the major climax in the conversation with Smaug, rather as the end of the Scouring is an echo of the events at the Sammath Naur.) The battle can't easily be omitted from the story, because there are too many loose ends, but it is intentionally kept somewhat out of focus.
And, contra-Entmaiden, I'm not sure the Eagles are a deux ex machina there, even for that post-climactic event: the subsequent narration says they did not save the day, though they helped. Rather it was Beorn who made the decisive difference (between chapters, as it were). On the other hand, Tolkien wrote in a letter that when he re-read The Hobbit, his feelings at encountering "The Eagles! The Eagles!" convinced him he'd written a story of worth. I think the situation may be analogous to the climax of LotR: the Eagles are a sign that the heroes have done all that can be asked of them, and that their cause has been found worthy. It has long seemed to me that even in The Hobbit, there are Powers in the West, at least as shown by the meteorological events in the Battle of Five Armies.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".
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merklynn
Menegroth
Apr 30 2008, 1:24pm
Post #27 of 38
(203 views)
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A bit of divine intervention then?
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Are you suggesting the eagles are symbolic of the turning tide / earned favor from on high? Interesting.
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Smaugie
Lindon
Apr 30 2008, 2:54pm
Post #28 of 38
(198 views)
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Either that or they are "apart" from MIddle-earth in some way.
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Are you suggesting the eagles are symbolic of the turning tide / earned favor from on high? Interesting.
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merklynn
Menegroth
Apr 30 2008, 3:02pm
Post #29 of 38
(186 views)
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I just figured Gwaihir was one of those opportunists who waits until someone else has done most of the work and then swoops in to steal their thunder. I work around a few Gwaihir's in my office.
(This post was edited by merklynn on Apr 30 2008, 3:02pm)
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Smaugie
Lindon
Apr 30 2008, 3:12pm
Post #30 of 38
(184 views)
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I hadn't thought of it that way...
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Annael
Elvenhome
Apr 30 2008, 3:44pm
Post #31 of 38
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The Valar have set themselves rules for how much they will interfere in Middle-earth; they'll send Gandalf to inspire, and allow the Eagles to help a little bit, but most of the hard work has to be done by those who belong there.
"The person who strives for security will never be free. The person who believes that she's found security will never reach paradise."
- Tom Robbins
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Ostadan
Ossiriand
Apr 30 2008, 7:37pm
Post #32 of 38
(176 views)
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Here's a more serious thought... given that we know the dwarves are pretty competent sturdy fighters (or at least in their own estimation... and by the later example of Gimli) then can anyone rationalize why twelve Dwarves got captured by three trolls? Surely twelve armed Dwarven warriors have at least a decent advantage over three trolls. I'd hate to think of the dwarves as needy and relying on Gandalf... but they kind of whine and complain about his absence when he's not around. Do they need coddling? I realize the threats they face demand the aid of a wizard given their low number... but three trolls?
:-D
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Great Eagle
Registered User
Apr 30 2008, 11:53pm
Post #33 of 38
(177 views)
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Eagles Pervasive in (Middle Earth) History
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Hey, All! I'm new to the board and really enjoy reading all of your insights and opinions.
Regarding the Eagles, let's not forget that when the entire history of Middle Earth is considered, the Eagles came on the scene back in the First Age. They play a key role in "The Fall of Gondolin", which Tolkien began writing in the late 1910's. They appear numerous times in First Age and even Second Age tales. So in the context of the entire mythology the Eagles were indeed "introduced" to Middle Earth long before they showed up unexpectedly in The Hobbit. Therefore, I wouldn't consider them a mere "contrivance" of Tolkien's to get his characters out of tough jams, but rather an integral part of the Middle Earth mythology from the beginning.
As for the Eagles being sent by the Valar, the Silmarillion states that "the Eagles had been "sent forth" to Middle-earth by Manwë. He commanded them to live in the mountains north of the land of Beleriand, in order to "watch upon" Morgoth." (O.K., I got that from Wikipedia, which has quite a decent article on the whole subject...anyone feel free to confirm in the Silmarillian.) So I lean toward the interpretation that the Eagles do have a Valar-given purpose to help "watch and protect" from the evil influence of Morgoth and later Sauron. (Though I do agree with Annael that the Eagles' intervention is limited so that the "people" of Middle Earth are still expected to do everything they can in their own power in any given situation.)
I like and tend to agree with the opinion expressed near the end of the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/...e_%28Middle-earth%29), "Tolkien's extremely consistent use of the Eagles in this way, and the fact that these Eagles were servants of the angel-like Vala Manwë, suggest to some readers that this was entirely intentional, making them agents of fate - "machines of the gods" rather than "gods in the machines"."
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ElanorTX
Dor-Lomin
May 1 2008, 1:32am
Post #34 of 38
(173 views)
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all ride astride. And the ancient great kilt provided yards and yards of material.
Even the modern short kilt should come to the middle of the knee.
I wear the hunting (mostly green) tartan for my clan because it suits my pale coloring better than the dress (mostly red) version.
Side-saddle is needed for long, straight skirts. Feminist dress analysis also relates it to worries about evidence of virginity.
Cf. 19th century polemics against women riding bikes because of possible stimulation from the seat.
BTW I agree that bagpipes do *not* screech -- only unaccustomed listeners do!
"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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Annael
Elvenhome
May 1 2008, 2:59am
Post #35 of 38
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you know the joke about bagpipes?
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The Irish gave them to the Scots as a joke - & are still waiting for them to get it.
(I'm Scottish, don't throw things!)
"The person who strives for security will never be free. The person who believes that she's found security will never reach paradise."
- Tom Robbins
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Kelvarhin
Gondolin
May 1 2008, 9:49am
Post #36 of 38
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Actually eagles were around before the first age
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in the sil it says
"But Manwe Sulimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of Aman, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the sea. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eys of Manwe and the servants of Manwe, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay."
Oh and welcome to the boards too 
There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 1 2008, 4:38pm
Post #38 of 38
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There seems to be a formula for everything
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and everything is judged by its fulfillment of or adherence to the formula. My daughter was once asked for her opinion of an excerpt from a book (could be any book) during her high school English class. She wrote a well thought-out, heartfelt response as she found the piece fascinating. Her paper received a C (she was an A student). The teacher said the response was, indeed, thoughtful, well written and within all the guidelines set for the paper, but she was wrong in her interpretation. Well, it was a paper on her opinion, not an interpretation... and is there really that much of a difference? How can someone be wrong in their opinion if it's theirs?
I get the same feeling from the "fact" that Tolkien was essentially "wrong" in how he wrote the story. I'd think he'd be the first person to understand how books (or papers) are properly written; but he was telling a story. I know when I tell a story, I'm all over the place with diversions and extrapolations... but it's my story told my way. I think his works are just fine.
As for the deux ex machina, isn't that what fantasy is all about? ;)
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
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