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DwellerInDale
Nargothrond
May 14 2015, 6:45am
Post #1 of 31
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Physics of The Hobbit: Legolas "Defying Gravity"
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The following might be more appropriate as an article, but I think that answering feedback will be important, so I'll post on the message board first. One of the most controversial scenes in BOTFA occurs during Legolas' fight with Bolg. Legolas is standing at one end of a fallen stone tower; when the tower shatters into pieces, he gets to Bolg by running up the falling blocks as if they were a staircase. In the view of many, this scene violated the "laws of physics"; reviewers stated that Legolas apparently "defied the law of gravity", and several were quite scathing in their comments about Peter Jackson due to this scene. So, is what Legolas did physically possible?
When Legolas is standing on the tower he is, like everyone on the Earth, being pulled downward by the force of gravity. He remains at rest, however, because the tower is exerting an equal, opposite force; physicists call this force the "Normal Force". The Normal Force is a contact force and is responsible for one's feeling of weight. As long as one remains at rest or moves in a straight line at constant speed, the Normal Force will oppose the force of gravity. Thus in an elevator moving upward or downward at constant speed, for example, one feels just the same as if one were standing still. If, however, you begin to accelerate (speed up or slow down), then the situation changes. When an elevator begins moving upward, you feel heavier because the Normal Force is greater than the gravity force. If the elevator cable snaps and you go into free fall, the Normal Force is reduced to zero, and you feel "weightless".
Now consider Legolas' situation. The tower shatters into blocks; he and the shattered tower are now in free fall, accelerating downward at 9.8 meters per second per second. He is no longer in an inertial reference frame; instead he is in an accelerating reference frame. If he takes out his dagger and lets it go, it will seem to float in front of him instead of falling.
The key point is this: inside his falling reference frame, Legolas is perfectly free to move by exerting a force on the stone blocks, using his leg muscles as normal. Thus he can indeed move upward, but only within his downward accelerating reference frame. The catch is that since that frame is accelerating downward at nearly 10 meters per second per second, he better do this very quickly if he is to cross the stone steps and reach Bolg. How quickly? Let us assume that he cannot let the stone blocks fall more than 2 meters, else he won't be able to reach Bolg's level. The tower looks to be between 10 and 15 meters long; call it 12 meters. The time taken to fall 2 meters is found from the free-fall equation:
t^2 = 2 * d / g
where t is the time in seconds,t^2 is the time squared, g = 9.8 m/s^2, and d is the distance fallen in meters. Plugging in d = 2 meters we get t = 0.639 seconds. To run the 12 meters in 0.639 seconds, Legolas must run at a speed of 12 m / 0.639 s = 18.78 meters per second, which equals 42 miles per hour. While this is faster than any human can run (top speed about 30 mph), it certainly does not violate any "laws of physics"; and in fact animals such as horses or cheetahs can run that fast with no problem. What made the scene look unreal seems to be the use of slow-motion; from the above numbers I estimate that what we saw on screen would have to have been slowed down by sixteen-fold.
Interestingly enough, recent research has shown that running 40-45 mph might be possible for humans as well (our bones could withstand the force); our limitation seems to be the speed at which we can "hop" (strides per second). So, what Legolas did was surely superhuman, but just as surely didn't break any "laws of physics".
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
May 14 2015, 7:19am
Post #2 of 31
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Well for me personally I don't care if it's possible. That wasn't my problem in the first place. I didn't mind moments like Legolas walking on snow in FotR even if it's possible or not. My problem is that in the end the running up the steps looks ridiculous. Less is more and by the time we reached that point of the movie I had gone from loving the movie to ???? So basically this one showing up didn't help.
But thanks for sharing though. I didn't want to come off as rude or anything!  It's always interesting with posts like this.
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dormouse
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 8:55am
Post #3 of 31
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Thanks for this, DwellerInDale....
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I can't offer you a scientist's response or a physicist's because I'm neither of those things, but I know from previous posts that you know what you're talking about and it sounds plausible to me. I'm also quite sure that someone at Weta will have thought it through as well.
The scene never bothers me in the 'is this physically possible' sense because Legolas is an elf. He can walk on the surface of a snowdrift - how should I know how he would cope with a falling tower? (Or to put it more simply, I don't watch the films looking for difficulties.) But as with the previous films, your explanations are fascinating.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 9:10am
Post #4 of 31
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Without your Expertise
We are jus' left... to Wonder?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Fimbulfambi
Lindon
May 14 2015, 11:06am
Post #5 of 31
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I really liked reading the first post in this thread, great stuff! However, I'm just gonna unshamefully put my general viewpoint on that scene instead of commenting on the physics of it.
About showcasing the elvish superhuman qualities, I enjoy those moments when they're subtle, just like when he was walking on snow or when it is just a natural part of the elves running easily among the branches in Mirkwood.
However, throwing it in-your-face like this scene is however not my cup of tea and a few of those existed also in FotR. This is simply because I'm not a huge fan of action for the sake of action.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 11:47am
Post #6 of 31
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Well, have you EVER watched Gymnastics?
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Would you say tiny little 80 pound 13 year-old-girls
Doing Double Twisting Back Flips
OR maybe even Landing on top of ONE Foot?
Chinese acrobats Spinning around on their Hands?
ICE Skaters or Cirque De Soleil... performers
might be a more appropriate Analogy
since the REASON they get High Scores is
THAT you jus' watch & WONDER
HOW did they do that?
& they are simply humans,.. NOT Immortal ELVES!
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Thrain II
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 12:23pm
Post #7 of 31
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Although my problem concerning Legolas was not with his over the top action scenes, but with his over the top presence in the movies.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 2:04pm
Post #8 of 31
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Actually, the falling tower presents a big issue as well.
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The tower should have collapsed upon impact, not rested like a log.
Unless we suppose a super strong mortar that holds the stones in place that could withstand the forces..........
I agree with the comment above, even if physically possible, the vast majority of the audience is not aware of this and it just looked silly.
I was happy to see Legolas in the films, but since the elven powers are never disclosed to the audience, it comes across as over the top and lends itself to the criticism of CGI excess.
Also, did Legolas have a mind meld with the bat? How can it be explained that the he grabs the bat legs and then is held by the bat upside down? Do his arrows stay in the quiver upside down? Was he able to direct the bat's flight?
(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 14 2015, 2:07pm)
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priell3
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 2:09pm
Post #9 of 31
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This scene is just one more example of PJ's obsession with shooting a movie in 3D. More weight given to SFX than to story.
MikeP
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priell3
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 2:13pm
Post #10 of 31
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Catapulted stones topple towers like a house of cards, yet this tower stays intact.
MikeP
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Imladris18
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 2:47pm
Post #11 of 31
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I'd argue that the over-the-top scenes are why he seems to have an over-the-top "presence,"
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as he really doesn't have a massive amount of screen time, especially in BotFA.
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Imladris18
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 3:06pm
Post #12 of 31
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I agree with it technically being *physically* feasible:
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You didn't mention that the normal force of each rock Legolas has to push off against largely relies on the mass of the rock. I think this is where the very "light-footedness" of the elves comes into play, as they have a very low effective mass (see the walking on snow example).
This low effective mass means that less "superhuman" downward force is required to push down on each rock for the rock and its mass to provide enough opposite normal force for Legolas to maintain an upwards acceleration greater than the downward acceleration due to gravity.
So - while it may not be "humanly' possible, I believe it's plausibly, physically, "elvenly" possible 
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Goldeneye
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 3:26pm
Post #13 of 31
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Regardless of any attempt to explain the stunt with science, at the end of the day it came off as over-the-top and ridiculous. And like other posters have already said, there are other parts from that sequence that were equally ridiculous. Legolas riding on a bat upside down without losing his arrows, backflipping in midair and landing atop a tower. Jumping 100-200 feet from said tower onto the head of a troll, using a sword to break his momentum (which BTW would have ripped his arms right out from the velocity of the fall). Using said sword as a joystick to control the troll's movements since it is embedded in the creature's head. Using said troll to knock over said tower until it lodges itself conveniently over a gorge, without any other support (physically impossible). That entire sequence with Legolas in Ravenhill was the absolute rock-bottom for the ME films.
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Bofur01
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 3:57pm
Post #14 of 31
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No no no no no, do you know how bridges work?
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The inward forces from the rocks on the ends of the tower keep the tower up... For example look at how suspension bridges are built.
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Imladris18
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 4:06pm
Post #15 of 31
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As a huge Legolas fan, I tend to agree.
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I would've preferred a much more understated approach to his role in BotFA. Want him picking off orcs from range whilest defending Thorin? Awesome, sign me up, but he doesn't need to get to a tower riding a bat upside down to do so.
But, the rock-running, much like the shield-surfing in TTT, I think people get way too worked up about. They really aren't THAT out there. I think the whole bat thing is MUCH worse.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 4:09pm
Post #16 of 31
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Rather that STEEP POSTS with Opinions?
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Can't people Remember that it isn't
ORLANDO BLOOM doing this...
IT's Legolas Greenleaf!
Nice guy, jus' like PJ..&... the thousand of people
who want YOU
to Suspend sum-sorta Belief?
Some need to RE-LOOK at your GAMEBOYS?
IF Bomby wanted to Watch a...
Reality Movie?
bom has the Nightly NEWS.
EVEN THAT.. is
DOCTORED for your Consumer-Based Pleasure.
a Fantasy Movie..is SUPPOSED to be..
a..Fantasy
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Bombadil
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 4:18pm
Post #17 of 31
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"Physics BE DARNED...FULL SPEED AHEAD..Captain PJ"//
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by entmaiden on May 14 2015, 4:59pm)
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Eruonen
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 4:29pm
Post #18 of 31
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There is no suspension with the tower. It should have crumbled....then again,
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I suppose there is special unacknowledged Dwarven engineering at play.
All of these over the top moments...granted, some people like them...take me out of the Middle Earth experience. The books and the world created keep fantastic elements within boundaries. For me, they were unnecessary (I can never spell this!) and thrown in for theater spectacle only (studio demanded or PJ?).
If one were to poll most theater goers, I wonder how those over the top elements were really received.
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Goldeneye
Menegroth
May 14 2015, 4:43pm
Post #19 of 31
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Suspension bridges require suspension cables and towers to keep the actual deck from collapsing. It's simple physics- every bridge needs an immense amount of support, especially one that is made of solid stone. The tower has no support across its span. No bridge can exist through "inward force" from either side of its span...the amount of force required to sustain its weight would crush it. It either needs suspension, arch support, beams or something of the like. Bottom line, physically impossible as depicted in BOFA.
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Arannir
Doriath
May 14 2015, 4:51pm
Post #20 of 31
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However, no equation or "scientific" text will make this moment look and feel better to me.
To me, it is one of the worst moments of "who cares about suspension of disbelief"... and actually one of the absolute low-points of all ME movies.
It really is the incarnation of many things wrong - imho - with this trilogy (not just the stunt... also the whole plot line leading up to it). Whether it is explainable or not.
I always understood this shouldn't be compared to LotR all the time... however, it is inexplainable to me how someone who once said "let's shoot LotR as if it actually happened" could come up with something like this. Maybe it would have felt differently if it had been a stand-out moment such as Lego jumping on the horse in TTT, surfing the stairs or defeating the Oliphant by himself. Suspension of disbelief worked there, imho... but not here... and it felt even more tedious given how many times gravity had been defied in this trilogy before. :(
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on May 14 2015, 4:57pm)
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Eruonen
Gondolin
May 14 2015, 4:59pm
Post #21 of 31
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The way I judge these moments was based on my feeling in the theater
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....I was personally embarrassed at some the the action...because the world I love, and how it was being presented to many who were less familiar with it, was turned into comic book action. I recall some of those moments...be it in LOTR or The Hobbit where I recall thinking..."nooooo, come on...."
Hey, overall, I am very glad the movies were made, and I think PJ got many, many things right. For me, it is just those excessive moments that take points off the score.
If you go to a Marvel based film, fine, you expect super heroes with super powers.
Harry Potter had a world grounded in magic...so some over the top things were explained. And I don't recall as many over the top scenes in those films.
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
May 14 2015, 5:23pm
Post #22 of 31
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....I was personally embarrassed at some the the action...because the world I love, and how it was being presented to many who were less familiar with it, was turned into comic book action. I recall some of those moments...be it in LOTR or The Hobbit where I recall thinking..."nooooo, come on...."
Yeah that's me too. There's much good things in these movies, but it were moments like this I sat like that too. As well as Kili's death scene and the amount of cringeworthy slow-mo How can they go from something amazing to this?!
But regarding that tower... It was far fetched it even stayed up after having fallen in the first place, but after that amount of rocks falling there is just no way. It just got so stupid in the end.
I loved Legolas in LotR and liked that he would be in the Hobbit too until he was being shoehorned into the main storylines. That he was the one to kill Bolg instead of a character that actually has a role in the book... It's frustrating as heck.
I enjoyed that he shot down the orcs for Thorin, but LESS is MORE and sometimes PJ & Co really forgets this.
Maybe I would have liked Legolas' bigger role in the movie if Orlando was a better actor. I mean, I like the guy, he seems very lovely, but there are moments that just added to me not liking him in the Hobbit. The story of his mother? His expressions just doesn't work for me at all.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
May 14 2015, 5:32pm
Post #23 of 31
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I enjoyed that he shot down the orcs for Thorin, but LESS is MORE and sometimes PJ & Co really forgets this.
PJ: The dwarfs, beorn, funerol less is more.
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
May 14 2015, 5:34pm
Post #24 of 31
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I enjoyed that he shot down the orcs for Thorin, but LESS is MORE and sometimes PJ & Co really forgets this.
PJ: The dwarfs, beorn, funerol less is more.
True. Less of the things that the fans actually want -_-'
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Bishop
Mithlond
May 14 2015, 9:35pm
Post #25 of 31
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This is a common problem for directors
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And I don't know whether it's good or bad or right or wrong, or why it even happens in the first place. The idea is once you establish that a character can do something awesome, you have to ramp up the stakes with each film. I think Jackson has said as much in regard to Legolas. So for example in FOTR he stands in one place and rapid fires arrows. THAT is the most amazing thing he does in the film, and personally to this day it's still my favorite; people gasped and applauded during that moment. Then in TTT he backwards flips onto a horse, also applause worthy, and rides down a shield. So by the time you get to ROTK, Legolas needs to single-handedly take down an Oliphant. While extreme and kind of silly, it happens at the climax of a battle and puts the punch line on a long running joke about how many kills he has versus Gimli. So whatever!
So Jackson was clearly thinking "man, how are we going to top that?". And for some insane reason the answer was EVERY SINGLE THING that Legolas does MUST be ridiculous. Seriously. He's an unstoppable force of absurdity, from the first moment he appears to the very last thing he does in his fight against Bolg.
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