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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Jul 9 2011, 5:33pm
Post #1 of 11
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Flashbacks, flashbacks, flashbacks everywhere!
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Let's count:
- Summer 2941: the Quest for Erebor & another White Council meeting & an attack against Dol Guldur
- Spring 2941: Gandalf and Thorin meet in Bree and travel together planning the Quest (possibly included?)
- 2851 : A meeting of the White Council decideds to take no action against Dol Guldur
- 2850 : Gandalf enters Dol Guldur, finds Thrain and gets the map & key
- 2790 - 2799 : The War of Dwarves and Orcs (probably included)
- 2770: Smaug attacks Erebor and Dale
- Possible shots to the earlier life in the Wilderland, such as Bard's ancestors, maybe even Dwarves being driven out of Khazad-dûm
Now that's a lot of different time leves, even if they didn't use all of these. So, what is a script writer to do? Reveal the past flashback by flashback in the middle of the main story, of make a Prologue a la FotR? A few scenarios for your consideration:
A.) The film starts like the book, in the Shire where Bilbo Baggins having a good morning. The Smaug attack will be seen as a flashback during the Unexpected Party. The War of the Dwarves and Orcs is shown as a flashback during the journey when the characters disscuss about it. Gandalf sneeking into Dol Guldur & finding Thrain is shown as a flashback during the second White Council meeting taking place during the main narrative. The first White Council might not be shown at all. If there must be flashbacks, at least keep them in the chronological order!
B1.) The film starts with a prologue about Smaug's attack into Erebor & Dale. It then moves into the Shire, perhaps via similar map shot as in FotR, where Bilbo is having his good morning. The War & the Dol Guldur are shown as in case A.
B2.) The film starts with a Prologue about Smaug's attack into Erebor & Dale, and the exile of the Dwarves, complete with the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. It then moves into the Shire, where Bilbo is having his good morning. The Dol Guldur flashback is seen during the White Council subplot.
C.) The film starts with an action sequence of Gandalf & Elrond sneaking into Dol Guldur & finding Thrain, after which they hastly depart to the White Council. The Council is futile and Gandalf wanders away, only to meet Thorin in Bree. They decide about the Quest. The location changes into the Shire where Bilbo is spending the morning while the title "An Unexpected Journey" appears. The Smaug attack will be shown as a flashback during the Unexpected Party, and the War of the Dwarves and Orcs as a flasback later on.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Jul 9 2011, 5:57pm
Post #2 of 11
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Simple scenes of Bilbo and Gandalf just like the Book. Then the Next Day, Dwaves arrive (Funny Piles of Dwaves at the Front Door with Thorin on the Bottom).
Flashbacks to Smaug's attack In my Cinemagraphical mind should accompany the Reveling of the Map and KEY!. I personally don't want to see Smaug Yet! Maybe he is a "Shadow Version" threat!... just out of Frame (aerial Shots with maybe a hint of his Wings in Frame) but with Fire sourgeing the Earth killing many Dwave Families, runiing for their Lives; As Thorin tells the Tale to all at the Unexpected party.. Like a creepy Ghost story that is scareing a Bug-EYED Bilbo.
Comedy first then reveal the Tragety the Dwaves are trying to correct in Re-Claiming Mountain of Treasure. xoxoxGreat Post, by the Way! xoxoxOB
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DrDeath153
Menegroth
Jul 9 2011, 7:06pm
Post #3 of 11
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Of the options i'm most in favour of D
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In The Hobbit as opposed to the Lord of the Rings, the plot is not dependent on lots of backstory which must either be explained in words or images. I would be extremely wary of starting The Hobbit with anything resembling Fellowship of the Ring's sensational prologue since not only would it just be a repeat (and a wholly unnecessary one) as well as making the tone a bit portentous and leaden from the start. Equally i am not too keen on going into huge amounts of details about the war of the dwarves and the goblins (Tolkien himself mentions in the first chapter that those matters don't come into the story) and i think it would confuse the status of the main plot if you added too much of it- The Lonely Mountain wouldn't look so lonely if you'd spent a lengthy period of time focused on the familiar setting of Moria (and film-firsters would almost wonder why they bothered talking about the Lonely Mountain when there was a perfectly adequate ravaged dwarven city already in the story). Any formal prologue concerning Smaug too i think would make the whole thing a bit too explicit as well as the trouble with showing the history of the dwarves- what a downer. Personally i've fallen in love with the idea of the Thrain opening- something really enigmatic that does not get explained until later in the film. Seeing Gandalf recovering the map and the key from this husk of a dwarf in some ghastly location would introduce you to the major linking character between LotR and The Hobbit, would be dark but not 'epic' ruining the tone and would link the two plotlines at the place (arguably the only place) they should be linked- one broken old dwarf in the dungeons of the Necromancer. Following that they can proceed as the book dictates, familiarising us with our new Bilbo (probably through the old Bilbo framing device).
Matters of Smaug i think should start off very abstract. I don't mind a visual representation but a 'flashback' with kind of shot cinematic footage i think would paint the picture in a bit too much detail right at the front of the film. I think such images as there are used to conjure up the dwarves' story should be representative of Bilbo's imagination, the growing sense of desire for the outside world- shadows and pipe smoke shaping or appearing to shape into representations of the events. As the films go on, these flashbacks would get more vivid, more cinematic and so in the end, as you near the lonely mountain you might get the kind of explicit flashbacks (almost from Thorin's perspective- imagine what he must be thinking as he goes for the first time in a hundred and seventy odd years to his home, as he wanders through the despoiled halls after Smaug's departure he would be imagining/remembering the events of the day his whole people were driven from it).
In terms of the White Council, i imagine the timeframe for the events will be compressed dramatically. Where possible council meetings should not be treated as flashbacks and should instead take place during the narrative, even if they must be made more informal as a result (meetings between two or three council members as and when they have time to meet each other). In many ways it would make more dramatic impact if the first time they actually assembled as a complete group was just before attacking Dol Guldur and could almost satirise The Hobbit's production with the conflicting schedules of all the key players (while humour wouldn't be appropriate for The White Council, it would be very funny, even a powerful dramatic device to have Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast almost having to 'check their diaries' and syncronise their schedules to arrange the attack on Dol Guldur).
Dr Death
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Jul 9 2011, 7:31pm
Post #4 of 11
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Summer of 2941 is not a flashback...
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These are the events that are happening in 'real time' in the films.
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 9 2011, 7:33pm)
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
Jul 9 2011, 7:57pm
Post #5 of 11
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I wanted to list all the different levels of the story, and to put them into chronological order to visualize how complicated this thing can get. In LotR, they could just say! "There made Rings and then they had a war and Sauron died". This time they seem to be adding in all kinds of different events that took place in the past, that need to be explained separately from each other. The Smaug attack, the Dol Guldur sneak-in, the War of the Dwarves and Orcs... in a wierd way, it's not a coherent, simple story like LotR. It was simplier, but theyr'e making it more complex.
Of course, I'm not saying this is how the Hobbit should be told. I'm just noticing that as they seem to intend all these events, they must find some way to make it flow nicely into one understandable story.
Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster
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Gandalf'sMother
Nargothrond
Jul 9 2011, 8:38pm
Post #6 of 11
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I would say litter flashbacks throughout the films...
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LOTR was at its best when instead of exposition about the past, they showed it to us. The Council of Elrond could have benefited greatly from a few flashbacks - particularly ones that could have fleshed out why Boromir, Gimli and Legolas all showed up in Rivendell.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Jul 10 2011, 1:17am
Post #7 of 11
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I'm going with Gandalf's Mother...
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Flashbacks to stories and History of their current Situation would be a great way to
intersperse the Abandonment of the Lonely Mountin.
Late at night Thorin or Balin could explain the History.
Like Story-tellers in 3rd world regions of our world, around a campfire, say in the Outback of Australia or Africa.
xoxoxOB
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jul 10 2011, 1:18am)
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 10 2011, 1:23am
Post #8 of 11
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The story from Bilbo's perspective
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...starts with comfortable ignorance, with gradual realization of the bigger story in which he finds himself. So, no prologue (especially since there's already the framing device about the book). I agree that there's no need for details of the War of Dwarves and Orcs, although it will probably be mentioned.
At some point Bilbo will learn about Smaug's evil past, possibly in bits and dribbles, but maybe not till he reaches Laketown (they're the ones who know, after all).
As for the White Council/Dol Guldur thread, that can mostly run along in parallel with Bilbo's thread, with episodes fitting when Gandalf is away. Its flashbacks can occur within its threads.
Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Kangi Ska
Gondolin
Jul 10 2011, 3:29am
Post #9 of 11
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Are you then saying that the movies should not follow the book?
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The attack of Smaug on The lonely mountain is told in the Unexpected Party.
Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.
At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 10 2011, 4:43am
Post #10 of 11
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Forgot that little detail.
Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Zizix
Ossiriand
Jul 10 2011, 10:04pm
Post #11 of 11
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My hope is it starts In a hole in the ground
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And I agree another big-epic-exposition-prologue would just be a repeat of FotR.
I kinda like option C too though. The "main" part of the film could still start in Bilbo's Hobbit-hole.
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