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burgahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 29 2014, 2:48am
Post #1 of 9
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Nazgul theme for Thorin. Is there finally an expanation?
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I was just randomly letting my mind wander on different subjects concerning The Hobbit and LOTR films earlier today as I have a bad habit of doing: my likes and dislikes (mostly my dislikes) and how they could be improved with TABA and DOS EE. I was thinking about the ring and the ringwraith theme, and then I thought of Thorin's charge in AUJ and its use there. This has always been controversial. We have Doug Adam's post hinting that there's something more to Azog then we know, and we discussed the possible reasons that this would cause the Nazgul theme to be played in the scene (if there was any reason beyond it sounding cool). The discussion went like this: perhaps Azog is under the Necromancer's service (possibly even reanimated by him) and so he is kind of in the Ringwraith's role of hunting someone down, and maybe even hunting them in order to get a ring of power (for Thorin may have the seventh dwarf ring). That was a good enough theory (although I don't think that Thorin does have the ring) but it always left some of us feeling unsatisfied. I was inclined to agree with others that the theme in the scene is centered on Thorin, and not Azog, and that saying its centered on Azog would be like saying that its use in FOTR was for the hobbits who were running from the Nazgul.
Now forgive me if this has been speculated before, but it just struck me tonight that perhaps we had it completely backwards. Now a year later we all know that Azog is indeed under Sauron's command, but perhaps he is not looking for the seventh ring at all, perhaps it fell right into his hands! Thrain had it, and lost it in Dol Guldur in the book (or something like that at least), so perhaps the movieverse took it a step further and decided who exactly it was in Dol Guldur who found it on him. A certain pale orc. Yes, I think that Azog is the bearer of the last of the Seven rings!
So why is the Nazgul theme being played during the epic charge at the end of AUJ? Perhaps because a ring of power is inciting an old "king" (so to speak) to reclaim it. Obviously Thorin didn't know Azog had the ring, but perhaps its power was something subconsciously playing at his mind, and when mixed in with the revenge Thorin wanted for his grandfather, it ultimately made Thorin charge at the ringbearer.
Is it a stretch? I don't think so. The seventh ring is important. Gandalf didn't randomly bring it up in the AUJ EE during the white council. His line has to have a payoff. Perhaps in DOS EE we will see Thrain muttering about "the last of the seven" as in the books, but even then, there must be something more that is important to the plot. Maybe Gandalf will ask Thrain, "Where is it?" and he will say, "Its...its...stolen," as he expires. Then in TABA, during BOFA, Azog will retrieve it from his pocket or wherever he has it hidden away and laugh as he tauntingly shows it to Thorin, again inciting Thorin to rush at him with the Nazgul theme playing proudly, or should I dare say, the "king wants the ring" theme. Well...
What say you?!
"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.
(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Jan 29 2014, 2:58am)
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Jan 29 2014, 1:17pm
Post #2 of 9
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It sounded great to me and is not a source of any questioning as far as I'm concerned.
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burgahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 29 2014, 4:55pm
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It sounds good for the scene, yes
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But it is the Nazgul theme, meant specifically for the Nazgul in LOTR. Apparently there are no Nazgul in the Out of the Frying Pan scene, and the theme is centered on Thorin. So they took one of the most evil character's themes in LOTR and gave it to one of the main protagonists in The Hobbit. As soon as it started playing in the theater this bothered me as it did many others, and I can't understand why no one else is still interested in this matter after only a year (I guess I just made my post too long and drawn out at the beginning for many to read through it).
I've gotten used to the theme for the scene and of course its really cool. If the music had not been used for the Nazgul in LOTR, I think it would be an awesome scene! But I would still love for there to actually be an explanation. Someone had to have taken Thrain's ring, and I'll admit that it was most likely Sauron. But it could have been Azog, and this would solve the Nazgul theme problem. If Azog has the ring of power, Thorin is attempting to kill a ringbearer. The Nazgul were attempting to kill the ringbearer in LOTR. Thus, the theme would work for both.
"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.
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Subaruman
Nevrast
Jan 29 2014, 5:27pm
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I don't think it was specifically a "Nazgul Theme"
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It was played during the FOTR during the prologue for the War of the Last Alliance.
If my memory serves it played somewhere else in LOTR not related to the Nazgul. I've always viewed it as a theme that indicates confrontation with the forces of Sauron. It wasn't known yet in AUJ that Azog was working for Sauron, so they used it almost as a hint of that being the case.
"Here is a book very unsuitable for dramatic or semi-dramatic representation. If that is attempted, it needs more space, a lot of space."
- J.R.R. Tolkien, 1956
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Jan 29 2014, 6:24pm
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I also like the fact that there was a slight tie-in to LotR – something I felt was missing in the music in DoS.
It was played during the FOTR during the prologue for the War of the Last Alliance.
If my memory serves it played somewhere else in LOTR not related to the Nazgul. I've always viewed it as a theme that indicates confrontation with the forces of Sauron. It wasn't known yet in AUJ that Azog was working for Sauron, so they used it almost as a hint of that being the case.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Jan 29 2014, 7:13pm
Post #6 of 9
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A few thoughts on your intriguing theory
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First:
I was just randomly letting my mind wander on different subjects concerning The Hobbit and LOTR films earlier today as I have a bad habit of doing
lol.... me too. Just wanted to say I am sitting right next to you on that bench, burgahobbit    .
I recall the earlier discussion also. And I'm still not all the way on board with that 'hint' being all there was to it either.
Two things that might support your theory:
1) One of the things I notice about the scene is Thorin's expression as he is walking down the tree. And a note about facial expressions: I understand and agree that interpreting facial expressions is completely subjective. An expression that feels like emotion "A" to me, might feel like emotion "B" to someone else. So this is just my opinion about it in that particular scene.
When Azog first appears, Thorin's face expresses disbelief and grief ("It cannot be"), then there's a period of time that passes when the tree falls, and then when Thorin looks back at Azog and they lock eyes, at that point Thorin's face appears to lose expression. He doesn't even look angry, which is what I'd expect. I don't know, maybe someone else would interpret his expression there as angry or grim or determined, but I think when they locked eyes he really seems in a sense enthralled, mesmerized. If so, maybe it could have something to do with the dwarves' Ring being somehow connected with Azog, which has an effect on Thorin, filling his mind and driving out reason.
2) Also another thing to consider is the music used directly afterwards. As soon as Bilbo jumps in to rescue Thorin, and he slumps back unconscious, the music switches to the piece that is played during the Prologue when Bilbo is describing the wandering dwarves, "a once mighty people brought low". Why were they brought low? For a "bad" reason, specifically because Thror's greed brought the dragon. So why is Thorin brought low here? Thorin avenging his father and grandfather isn't *really* a "bad" reason, so the parallel doesn't really work, so why use the same music? Unless there is a a corresponding "bad" reason for this particular dwarf being brought low? If so, it could be that Thror's Ring had something to do with the sickness that overcame him and his greed for gold. And there could be something to your theory, that the dwarves' Ring was involved here in a bit of temporary madness affecting Thorin.
And P.S. I also agree that while the EEs do contain lots of little lore goodies that don't always pertain to the story, that the conversation about the dwarves' Ring seemed pretty detailed and a thread that seems to leave us hanging. However, since it didn't make the AUJ TE, I don't think the 'payoff' will appear in the TABA TE either. Maybe it will in the TABA EE though!
Thanks for sharing your theory, it's fun speculating about it :-).
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burgahobbit
Nargothrond
Jan 29 2014, 8:05pm
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You brought up some nice points that I hadn't though of at all. That's interesting about Thorin perhaps being "mesmerized" and very interesting about the "people brought very low" theme. I remember that being discussed a while back as well so its good to see some possible development on all of these things. Thanks for the post!
While I kind of doubt my own theory in some ways, and think that its more likely that Sauron took the ring from Thrain than Azog, I'm really hoping that it turns out to be true so that the Nazgul theme makes sense, and now the other theme that you pointed it out would make sense too. Plus, its kind of cool in that weird Azog the Defiler kind of cool way that an orc would be in possession of one of the seven dwarf rings of power.
Your also right about the EEs. The seven rings discussion was in AUJ EE and the Thrain/Gandalf at Dol Guldur scene will be in the DOS EE (although its unknown for sure whether they will discuss the seventh ring or not, but Gandalf did mention Thrain's name in the same AUJ EE scene). So the conclusion of the plot wouldn't make sense in TABA's TE. I wonder how they could show that Azog has it then, if it isn't important to the rest of what's happening in the BOFA. Maybe it will be something subtle, as Azog simply wearing it during the siege, and an EE scene could show him taunting Thorin about it during their final confrontation...
"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.
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One Ringer
Dor-Lomin
Jan 30 2014, 3:43pm
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To me the soundtrack of Middle-Earth is more thematic than anything...
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I never really had an issue with the Black Rider theme playing over Thorin's charge. There was a time that I wasn't really a big fan of the March of the Ents getting a reprise when the Rohirrim charges on Pelennor, because I always felt that they were sort of stealing the theme of the Ents. However, when you consider that the first time you ever heard such a theme was in FotR when the moth first appears to Gandalf, the music suddenly serves more than the Ents; it represents trees and animals alike. It's a theme for Nature.
So when it comes to the Black Rider theme being used with regards to Thorin and Azog, upon reflection it holds greater meaning. Like the Black Riders, Azog has in a sense risen from the dead, as is Thorin rising from the ashes of his ancestors. Rather than being just a theme for the Nazgul, the music now represents resurrection and reprisal.
"You do not let your eyes see nor your ears hear, and that which is outside your daily life is not of account to you. Ah, it is the fault of our science that it wants to explain all; and if it explain not, then it says there is nothing to explain."
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cats16
Gondolin
Jan 30 2014, 4:38pm
Post #9 of 9
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I think you're spot on in saying that sometimes, we must expand our consideration of a particular theme. When the "Nazgul theme" played over Thorin's charge, I knew that it was a calculated, intended decision that obviously required some adjustment of my prior interpretation of the theme. But, I also knew that I needed to see a little more of the story (DOS aided in doing so). Now, I understand more of the larger 'whole'.
Well said. 
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