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Noria
Hithlum
Oct 3 2014, 12:28pm
Post #26 of 43
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Also, for me it works better to have Legolas play an actual part that contributes to the overall story than to have Bloom do a cameo. Legolas is a key element of the Thranduil/Tauriel isolation versus engagement theme which I look forward to seeing play out in TBOTFA.
It occurred to me recently that Thranduil is in for a bit of a rude awakening when he realizes that Legolas has abandoned him to follow Tauriel.
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Elessar
Doriath
Oct 3 2014, 12:58pm
Post #27 of 43
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the depth of the background is something I had imagined a bit in my own head so its nice to see it now visually.
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mae govannen
Dor-Lomin
Oct 3 2014, 1:36pm
Post #28 of 43
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Oct 3 2014, 1:46pm
Post #29 of 43
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There is an Interesting Detail?
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that is a change from the BOOK
1. Leggy & T-Girl standing on the Shore
looking @ a sunken Laketown (:24 sec.)
2. Another shot of Bard talking to Leggy
& OB he turns his HEAD towards the Mountain.
3. Another of T-Girl (Close-up) in Dale.
4. Another of jus' the two of them
behind some Rocks..
(Key shot behind Bombyzz theory).
THE BIG Give-away...
The Shot of the refugees climbing over some mountain ALONE,
while Billy Boyd sings "The World is behind you.."
These are mixed in, & NOT in
Chronological order.
Conclusion:
L&T go with the HUMAN survivors without any help from the Elves.
In a way, like an Advance party...only them for awhile
until
Thranny shows up with his army.
THIS gives the audience MORE
Leggy & Tauriel...
Some
Serious
ScreenTime...
Which bomby finds truly Wonderful, since we GET
TWO of the MOST Beautiful Creatures EVER in MiddleEARTH
Together often.
Even if they are jus' friends,...&
Growin' UP!
right before
our Wonderin' eyes.
bom (A First Responder, Tolkien 1966)
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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mae govannen
Dor-Lomin
Oct 3 2014, 2:09pm
Post #30 of 43
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To start with, being King's Thranduil's son
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is certainly not an easy thing to grow with... especially considering the very powerful and dominant characterization Thranduil has been given in these films!!! A mere name with a few biographic details to it in JRRT's writings, Thranduil has become a full fledged Elf King with such a fascinating, both seductive and overbearing personality, it's a miracle his son Legolas has managed to grow into his own nevertheless... I would never have imagined such a difficult background for Legolas before, but it does make total sense to me the way it is presented in the movie.
The only thing I am missing is his mother: how come she is nowhere to be seen??? Has she already died for some untold reason? Could that be part of the same painful past Thranduil briefly evokes by showing Thorin the normally invisible but terrible dragon scar on his left cheek? Thranduil has already been involved long before in big wars, perhaps that's why he has become such an extreme isolationist?... The new deadly danger announced by the captured Orc is immediately recognized by him as a coming back of Sauron, and that thought is unbearable to him, so he beheads the Orc to silence him, as if that could symbolically stop the Sauron threat...
At least that's what I imagine; but even if I am correct, Legolas knows nothing of all that and doesn't understand his father's reaction. Thranduil has not burdened his son with his own dreadful memories...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Elessar
Doriath
Oct 3 2014, 3:58pm
Post #31 of 43
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I think with how they've expanded Thranduil is the glue that makes Legolas depth work. We see that Thranduil isn't the helpful type and from what we know in the books he really isn't either. For me it's just nice to see my own internal story of things work so well with what we've seen. It also for me makes his growth during LOTR even more special. The whole to die side by side with a friend after what we've seen just makes me  .
As far as Thranduil it is nice to just see that character also get some more depth and seeing his own reasons for not doing things. It really just adds to the whole thing making Middle-earth even more special.
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mae govannen
Dor-Lomin
Oct 3 2014, 4:09pm
Post #32 of 43
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 3 2014, 9:53pm
Post #33 of 43
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On principle, the insertion of Legolas doesn't bother me nearly as much as the insertion of certain other characters...
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I just don't think he benefited at all from being cast as the jealous third wheel in an ill-conceived love triangle.
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mae govannen
Dor-Lomin
Oct 4 2014, 1:58pm
Post #34 of 43
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a bit of a 'reductionist' way of putting it, when actually Legolas is faced with a whole more complex situation, given his father's personality and isolationism and elitism, versus all the larger and more inspiring views embodied by Tauriel, and explaining precisely her attraction to a Dwarf, although Legolas is the one she really loves?...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Oct 4 2014, 2:01pm)
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 4 2014, 9:17pm
Post #35 of 43
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...I just really dislike the idea of an Elf and a Dwarf having romantic feelings for one another. It isn't something that I feel fits in with Tolkien's world. I would have been fine with all of it had they simply not included the romantic angle. As it stands, I'm not at all a fan of what they've done with Tauriel and Legolas (and Kili).
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dormouse
Gondolin
Oct 4 2014, 9:57pm
Post #36 of 43
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But do you think they have shown Tauriel having romantic...
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.. feelings for Kili? I'd say that they've shown a dawning awareness on her part that Kili (and by extension, dwarves, whom her people disdain) have families; can respond to the outside world as she does. That's not romantic. I think they've made it pretty clear that any romantic feelings she has are for Legolas. Her friendship with Kili surely has more to do with her longing to reach beyond the confines of Mirkwood. When he reached for her hand, she seemed to pull away.
As for Kili, that one delirious ramble from him could mean anything, really, but I'd say it fits into the same bracket as Gilmli's admiration for Galadriel which is pure Tolkien. And it isn't romantic - more in the tradition of courtly love. If you want to say that it's best left to Gimli to have those feelings, fair enough, but I don't see how it can be said not to fit in Tolkien's world.
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cats16
Gondolin
Oct 4 2014, 10:34pm
Post #37 of 43
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To me Kili's feelings are truly the 'she's out of this world,' only in the most literal sense to him, from experience. Even if he's seen elves before (and he has, from Rivendell), she is the first one to really stand out--both in actions and in words. So, I think it's a matter of a brief infatuation with the ideal that he's been presented. He hasn't known her long enough to strip down that perfect image of her and come to see her for her true self.
Been there myself!
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 5 2014, 12:39am
Post #38 of 43
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There's most definitely a "romantic" angle to all this...
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...and how you can deny that is beyond me. She gives him googly eyes and comments that "he's tall for a Dwarf", she gets all up in arms when that Orc is talking about sticking him with an arrow, she follows him to Lake-town and then leaves Legolas behind to save him. NONE of which is rooted in anything written by Tolkien.
And Gimli did not have romantic feelings toward Galadriel, he just thought she was beautiful to behold, and that was that. But it was a major character development for him that led to his becoming great friends with Legolas. Why does Legolas need more impetus to become what he became in LotR? I thought Tolkien had that pretty well-covered.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 5 2014, 12:53am)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Oct 5 2014, 9:36am
Post #39 of 43
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Define 'googly eyes', please.....
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That's a very subjective reaction on your part. As for the comment about his height, far as I can see the romantic angle in that is her teasing Legolas, whom she does have feelings for. As for her obvious concern when she realises Kili has been poisoned, why is that romantic? Wouldn't you be concerned if you heard that a friend - or even someone you'd only just met - was in a similar situation?
As for Gimli, of course his feelings for Galadriel weren't romantic and if you read my previous post you'll see that I didn't say they were. The tradition of courtly love had nothing to do with romance in the modern sense. It was about admiration for someone out of reach, involving a lot of courtesy and poetry - much like Gimli and Galadriel.
If there's a problem here I think it's in some aspects of the presentation. Occasionally the script is too modern. Lines like Kili's trouser comment give the feeling of a modern boy-meets-girl story - the kind of thing we're all familiar with which is much more immediate and physical. But I honestly do believe that if you set those moderisms aside the actual storyline - the exchanges we've seen between Kili and Tauriel - have not shown a romance in the current sense and are not out of keeping with Tolkien.
As for Legolas, he doesn't need any more story than he has in Lord of the Rings. Tolkien's Legolas is just fine as he is. But including him in The Hobbit was logical and having done so, they've chosen to give him a storyline. Again, a reasonable choice to make - and so long as it doesn't conflict with Tolkien's Legolas I think it's an interesting idea.
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mae govannen
Dor-Lomin
Oct 5 2014, 1:45pm
Post #40 of 43
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keeps saving him!!! 
From the spiders at first, then from the Orc who has hurt him and tries to kill him altogether... and finally saving him from death through the arrow's poison.
To me, he seems infatuated indeed, but with the kind of adoration Gimli later will have for Galadriel; as for Tauriel herself, she likes him, but especially because she sees he appreciates also the starlight and all that, which she obviously didn't think a Dwarf would. I see more friendship in her than real attraction. It is Legolas she loves, and his father's elitist opposition (as well as political isolationism) has only made her rebellious and determined to win Legolas nevertheless - even when she is forced to let him go without her because if she doesn't stay for saving Kili, Kili is sure to die.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 5 2014, 2:59pm
Post #41 of 43
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My reaction is no more subjective than yours is...
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Anyway, googly eyes are the eyes Kili makes while Tauriel is walking away from his cell, and the eyes Tauriel makes while describing Kili as being tall for a Dwarf to Legolas. And I did not get the sense that Tauriel had feelings for Legolas, she seemed to view him more as a friend. I did get the sense that Legolas did have feelings for Tauriel though.
I will give you that there is precedence in Tolkien for a Dwarf to become enamoured of an Elf maiden, however I think that should have remained a part of Gimli's story and Gimli's alone. Tolkien meant for Gimli to stand out as the "Elf-friend", not share it with Kili.
In any case, I do not at all get how some of you can't see the "romantic" angle in all this. It's pretty clear to me that this was meant to add some sort of romance to a story that completely lacked any semblance of romance. It may not be a full-blown romance (and hopefully it doesn't become one), but it IS a love story of sorts. The writers and Ms. Lilly have all described it as such.
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dreamflower
Menegroth
Oct 6 2014, 12:56pm
Post #42 of 43
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In the Hobbit, he's on his home turf confronting people he's been taught to dislike, and with no particular reason to care about their mission. In LOTR he's out in the wide world, away from his "comfort zone" so to speak, and part of a mixed group that is on the most important mission possible, namely to save the world, where personal feelings have to be put aside.
I agree completely. The truth is, I would have been disappointed if the Legolas of TH had been like the Legolas of LotR. We don't see Legolas in TH--the Book, but if he had been in it, he would have been the Elf-king's son, probably showing some of his father's arrogance, and definitely sheltered from the outside world. He'd have no experience of mortals before, Men OR Dwarves.
He's going to need to end TH--the Movie by becoming more open and sympathetic to Men without entirely losing his antipathy to Dwarves. This would pave the way for the implications of his previous friendship with Aragorn in LotR, while leaving him still the room to grow through his prejudice against Dwarves through his growing friendship with Gimli.
It's going to be a tough balancing act.
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Ithilisa
Ossiriand
Jan 22 2015, 4:32am
Post #43 of 43
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I thought of your post on this thread today, Aragorn Elfstone...
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I went to see BOTFA again today and thought of this thread, especially posts like yours and Dormouse's. I didn't understand before; I do now. It took me 4 trips to see it, but now I see how Legolas does change to be a character I do recognize. There are still obvious differences, which I know there will be as there's still 60 years to go in between BOTFA and FOTR, but I now see moments where I see Legolas as I do like his character. Point understood.
"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor
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