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Curunir The White
Lindon
Nov 8 2014, 6:25pm
Post #1 of 20
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"Leave Sauron to Me" - Why I think this is genuine of Saruman
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Hey, This is my first post on here :)
On November 6th 2014, The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies 2nd Trailer was released. Around the 1:04 mark, Saruman, played magnificently once again by Sir Christopher Lee stated to a presumably exhausted, concerned and injured Elrond and Galadriel to "Leave Sauron to me." Throughout many discussion boards, facebook pages and news sites, I have seen countless posts on how people believe "This is it, Saruman is turning here." - I think quite different, and I would love to hear your views on it. I will be going over several different reasons as to why I believe Saruman is not turning here:
1. Saruman's personality and character (Throughout the movies so far)
2. Saruman's reprise in The Hobbit
3. Sir Christopher Lee
4. The White Council Present
5. The One Ring
6. The Fellowship of the Ring
7. Sauron
Saruman's Personality and Character:
Firstly, throughout the movies (not concentrating so much on the books, but Sarumans attitude remains the same in both) - Saruman is portrayed as a prideful man, who has no doubt in his own abilities and capability as the head of the White Council and of the order of the Istari. Saruman is of course going to think he can take on Sauron, remember, it has been stated that Saruman had no intention of allying himself with Sauron at this point, it was really only until he gazed into the Palantir that Saruman began to wish to ally with Sauron for his own ends to achieve the ring. So, due to his personality and character, Saruman is going to be confident enough in his abilities to rid of Sauron from Dol Goldur, He won't be surrendering himself due to his pride.
Saruman's Reprise in the Hobbit:
This is refering to the White Council meeting during An Unexpected Journey. While this perhaps isn't as large as the rest, we have yet to see Saruman take on this image that has been granted to him by both the books, Christopher Lee and Peter Jackson. "Saruman is a good and noble man" - That is from an interview with Christopher Lee during the release of the first hobbit, but remember, Lee had finished recording all his scenes by this point, and he has remained with these choice of words, that Saruman is good and noble. We have yet to see this in practise, and no doubt if applied as such, this will make Saruman a much tragic figure of a villain and work brilliantly.
Sir Christopher Lee:
Christopher Lee has acted many great villains, none so much known now over the likes of Count Dooku and Saruman The White. Count Dooku during his death scene, was supposed to beg for his life from Anakin which is much in the manner of a Sith. However, Christopher Lee told George Lucas that Dooku should not beg for his life, as it's not in Dooku's character. Dooku, like Saruman, was prideful and confident in his own power. If Saruman where to strike a deal with Sauron at Dol Guldur, or surrender himself, that would be much out of character of the 'Good and Noble' Saruman The White that the Hobbit is supposed to enforce, but also, it would be out of character of Saruman even when he's corrupted. He wouldn't make a deal with Sauron, especially if he had Sauron cornered to defeat him. Unless Sauron has Saruman pinned up against a wall, begging for his last breath (which I very much doubt), I can't see him making a deal with Sauron or Surrendering to him.
The White Council Present:
The 4 (more if some were not shown in the trailer) most powerful people in Middle Earth are present. Saruman isn't as stupid to just strike a deal with Sauron under their noses, I mean can you imagine:
"Galadriel: Curunir. . . You survived?
Saruman: Yes. . .
Elrond: And. . . Unscathed?
Saruman: Yes. . .
*Saruman remembers the deal made between him and Sauron to let Sauron slip away*
Galadriel: You forgot I can read minds, didn't you Curunir. . .
Saruman: Yes. . ."
The One Ring:
Due to this amazing little artifact that Saruman desires, I doubt very much he would want to help Sauron escape, risking Sauron returning. Saruman would need to remove Saurons presence from Dol Guldur by proving to Sauron that he cannot contend with the White Council, and moreso Saruman himself at the moment. Remember, Saruman was searching for the ring down Gladden Fields, and he feared that Sauron would begin looking and hinder his progress, that's why Saruman relented on an attack on Dol Guldur.
The Fellowship of the Ring:
Between both the book, and the movie, I find two lines crucial to show that Saruman once tasted strength from Sauron, and not a deal.
"Sauron has regain much of his former strength"
This was said as Saruman tells Gandalf of Sauron's return. Would it not be more effective, especially for Peter Jackson for that to be said with Saruman being able to recall it as a first hand witness of Saurons strength. So far, Saruman has only really been able to read on Sauron's strength since he arrived on Middle Earth due to the movies, but what Saruman says here would be effectively strengthed, even for Gandalf too. Gandalf has tasted the strength that a weakened Sauron had to offer, Saruman who no doubt came out the victor (due to his survival), has also tasted this strength, and won. Saruman perhaps will realise that Sauron is stronger than he thought, but he won't lose, and that's why he may be concerned when 'Sauron has regain much of his former strength'
"It was by the devices of Saruman..." - Gandalf (Council of Elrond, FotR book)
This is a keyline, as it mentions of how Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur. Gandalf makes specific reference to Saruman, and his devices. I don't think this perhaps means as much as war machines, but Saruman is already knowledgeable on Sauron, and may use Sauron's devices against him, as well as being the White Wizard, I'm sure Saruman has devices of his own to use against Sauron (That magical voice of his maybe, we've seen what it can do during the FotR to bring down the Redhorn, I'm sure there are more than 1 dark spirit haunting Dol Guldur that won't be able to resist whatever Saruman utters) - Remember, Saruman has also had his big treacherous reveal in FotR
Sauron:
Do you really think Sauron would want to strike a deal with Saruman there and then? Do you not think Sauron will want to maybe try convince Saruman at a point when Saruman is vulnerable (I mean, PJ has already proven how headstrong Saruman is in AUJ), such as looking into the Palantir for the first time, remember Saruman had never done that before, he was more than likely not prepared for Sauron then, but he's launched an attack against Saurons fortress in this hobbit. I doubt very much that Saruman isn't prepared for Sauron, but also, I very much doubt that Sauron is prepared for Saruman. Sauron will get a taste of Saruman's power, and from there onwards, Sauron will realise how valuable an ally Saruman could be and it will make perfect sense as to why he tries to influence Saruman during the conferences in the Palantir.
What do you all think?
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Nov 8 2014, 6:50pm
Post #2 of 20
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Christopher Lee said with force that this Saruman is the good version so I expect
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Saruman to be true to his White status....his fall begins a little later.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Nov 8 2014, 6:54pm
Post #3 of 20
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I think you're absolutely right....
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And welcome to TORn - very interesting post!
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Spalko
Ossiriand
Nov 8 2014, 6:59pm
Post #4 of 20
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Amazing post.
And I have to agree, the Saruman that the trailer showed us is the one closer to the LOTR. If he looked kinda weak in the first Hobbit, in this one he looks powerful and steals the whole trailer with just one phrase; and that means a lot.
I cannot wait to see the whole Dol Guldur scene.
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BlackFox
Gondolin
Nov 8 2014, 7:04pm
Post #5 of 20
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Welcome to TORn! Great first post. 
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erdildeniz
Ossiriand
Nov 8 2014, 7:16pm
Post #6 of 20
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Welcome and you are absolutely right.
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I always forced people and fought for the side of Saruman, instead of Galadriel, to be the main key character, star and the hero of Dol Guldur. Of course my reason is Gandalf's line in FotR: it was by the devices of Saruman..
Hopefully, he will have the screentime as he already stated. And he stole the trailer, i don't wait any battle scene as much as any Dol Guldur scene. He will be the star i believe, despite that Boyens's nonsense line about "Galadriel is the most powerful being on ME."
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haarp
Ossiriand
Nov 8 2014, 7:48pm
Post #7 of 20
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Spoiler: he does make a deal with Sauron
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Sir Christopher Lee:
He wouldn't make a deal with Sauron, especially if he had Sauron cornered to defeat him. Unless Sauron has Saruman pinned up against a wall, begging for his last breath (which I very much doubt), I can't see him making a deal with Sauron or Surrendering to him.
(This post was edited by haarp on Nov 8 2014, 7:48pm)
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
Nov 8 2014, 9:01pm
Post #9 of 20
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I dont think so, since Sauron has is armies already marching towards the mountain
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What kind of deal could he make with Saurman¿
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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BlackFox
Gondolin
Nov 8 2014, 9:06pm
Post #10 of 20
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... in between TH and LOTR.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Nov 8 2014, 9:54pm
Post #11 of 20
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The VOICE of Saruman was really important
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Only hinted @ in LOTR
Hizz Voice was a Magical Device...?
"Hiz Ability to Corrupt" was THAT Voice
accordin' to the BOOKZ.
Theodan King...was the only REAL Victim
in these Moviezz.
BUT, could we get a REAL ON-Screen Version of it?
LIVE!
Might be a great WAY to Single out the Sound Engineerz.
Something..ie
SSOooo.
Seductive
EVEN the Audience?
Fallz under hiz Spell?
THAt would be
WAyCOOL for one to GREAT Voices of our TIME...
(And a Great Way to Pay Homage
to Sir Christopher Leezz
Amazing Career
playing the BAD Guy for EVER?)
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Nov 8 2014, 9:59pm
Post #12 of 20
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no deal thing, i don't like that
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i just don't see PJ going there.
The flames of war are upon you..
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Nov 8 2014, 10:00pm
Post #13 of 20
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The flames of war are upon you..
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
Nov 8 2014, 10:01pm
Post #14 of 20
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Is that what you mean?
Manythings happening in Dol GuldurXD
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Nov 8 2014, 10:06pm
Post #15 of 20
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saruman seducing sauron ?? wow, i didn't know sauron swung that way.
The flames of war are upon you..
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ltnjmy
Ossiriand
Nov 8 2014, 10:43pm
Post #16 of 20
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That one line stole the entire trailer. Saruman was a maia of Aule, just like Sauron was in the beginning. I totally loved it especially as gandalf said later, sauron was driven out primarily by the devices of saruman. Great thread and welcome to TORN
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mae govannen
Dor-Lomin
Nov 9 2014, 5:51am
Post #17 of 20
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Sruman's intentions may be genuine, but
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that doesn't mean he will be able to prevent Sauron's influence from entering him and starting to cloud his mind, without even his own noticing it. And if really, as some people say, there is a Palantir lying there somewhere and he takes it to his own tower, that will be the beginning of the end for him, as Gandalf finds out later on in FOTR.
So you may be right in all what you have written, and still this moment of obviously (in my eyes) excessive pride and self-confidence may still be the beginning of his downfall... 
This said... welcome to these TORn Boards!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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