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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 15 2015, 3:41pm
Post #1 of 148
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Kili and Tauriel: An 'almost-love-story'
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John Howe is quoted in Brian SIbley's The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies Official Movie Guide with perhaps the most insightful statement that I have read or heard concerning the relationship between Kili and Tauriel (I apologize if this has been cited before):
'The relationship between Tauriel and Kili,' says John Howe, 'is like one of those love stories where people think they are falling in love, when, in fact, they are actually falling out of love with everything else around them, and the only sympathetic face is someone who they would never choose in any other circumstance... So, it's a kind of "almost-love-story" with the potential to be tragically moving.'
I can buy into the subplot on this basis.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 15 2015, 4:34pm
Post #2 of 148
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I think that's a very good way of looking at it.
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marary
Menegroth
Mar 15 2015, 4:57pm
Post #3 of 148
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now that's very interesting! Kili/Tauriel more interesting than love at first sight
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I might need to apologize for the length of this post...
Kili/Tauriel is something I initially hated, but then really warmed up to. It might come off as dashing-hero-woos-the-girl story with a tragic end... but there's something much grittier going on with these two.
A Tauriel Analysis
Tauriel's narrative actually is rather intriguing, if you look a little closely. Before she really gets to know Kili, she's already becoming frustrated with Mirkwood's leadership. She's tasked with keeping the borders of the elven lands safe, yet is so stupidly micro-managed by her isolationist king that she can't properly accomplish this task (taking out the spider mothernest of Dol Guldur).
Also, there's some question as to how Tauriel got her position as Captain of the Guard. While a capable warrior, she's very young for an elf. It's unlikely she'd have that position unless someone favors her. Legolas says Thranduil favors her... but I think he's not being truthful. Legolas, not Thranduil, is doing all the Tauriel favoring. To make her happy (she does seem to like her job). So he can work alongside her more. She comes off as a bit ambitious and determined to prove herself. When Thranduil says that Legolas thought she fought well, she looks *proud*. Then Thranduil throws that comment about Legolas's crush at her, and she looks surprised and hurt.
Tauriel realizes in this moment that she didn't get her position from her own merits-- but because of Legolas's crush-driven favoritism. That's gotta be a big blow to her pride and greatly increase her frustrations with the Mirkwood leadership. (I credit a lot of the subtlety here to Evangeline Lilly-- she was fantastic in that scene with Thranduil, and I love her for not returning any affections to Legolas in her performance.) She assures Thranduil "Legolas thinks of me as nothing but a Captain of the Guard." She'd really like for Legolas's feelings to have nothing with her position as Captain.
How upsetting would that be to find out that your leader/co-worker who you *think* values you for your intelligence/capability really just has an unrequited crush. Icky feeling.
Tauriel is having none of Kili's stupid flirtations upon their first meeting.
But then she has that frustrating conversation with Thranduil. Then there's the Feast of Starlight. Maybe she wanders down to the dungeons, determined to be a good guard even though the integrity of her position has been thrown into doubt. Maybe she wants to avoid Legolas right now. There, she strikes up a conversation with Kili.
I don't think she's in love with him yet, but she is intrigued. He tells her stories about the world beyond Mirkwood. That's gotta be refreshing to her at this point. And despite being a dwarf AND her prisoner, he's very open and friendly with her. There were a few criticisms that Tauriel should have had a conversation with another dwarf in the dungeons, but I don't think any other dwarf, especially not the older ones, would be capable of having such a friendly conversation with an elf (not even Balin), much less an elf holding them prisoner. Kili was pretty notable in that regard. He doesn't seem to harbor bitterness as deeply as the other dwarves.
She goes after the dwarves for several reasons, Kili's injury being only one, I think (she doesn't decide to save him until Bofur falls into her with kingsfoil). All of these reasons are in line with Tauriel's frustrations with Thranduil, determination to prove herself, and serve her ideals.
There could have been years of frustration building up... but there was one straw too many. And then she finally defies Thranduil at about when we meet her.
A Kili Analysis
Kili's a bit of an odd duck. He's beardless. He discovers he has a thing for elf-maids, which he tries to cover up to much hilarity. He's obviously loyal to Thorin and determined to prove himself to his uncle. Kili gradually becomes disillusioned with Thorin as the quest continues- he still loves and respects him, but their relationship does shift, with getting left behind in Lake-town being the key moment there.
Now, when Kili's taken into the dungeons, I don't think he's in love with Tauriel. Not yet. He does try that awful pickup line and checks her out (Legolas notices). But I think he mostly just has a general attraction to elf women, as previously demonstrated. And I think at first, he's just trying his hand at flirting his way out of a bad situation (now imagine if *that* had worked! Thorin would have a thing or two to say...).
He's actually bit suspicious of Tauriel when she first appears during the Feast of Starlight... but then he opens up to her, telling her about his mother and previous adventures. (Still not madly in love though.)
Then the dwarves escape and arrive in Lake-town. Kili takes a moment to look at Tauriel after being shot, but he is singularly focused on helping the party get away from both elves and orcs. Thorin and the dwarves are still way more important to him, even if he does have a bit of a crush.
In Lake-town, Thorin leaves him behind in his classic not-so-tactful manner. Kili is *crushed*. He's really pulled his weight in the company and works so hard to prove himself, yet he gets so readily abandoned? In contrast, Tauriel willingly goes out of her way to help him... in a situation where his own uncle (seemingly) cared nothing.
Falling in love with Tauriel under these circumstances (the glowing/healing scene) makes a lot of sense. It wasn't just that she saved him... it was that she saved him when Thorin uncaringly abandoned him.
A bit more about Kili/Tauriel
Tauriel very vocally protests Thranduil's decisions. You know who else becomes very vocal about their leader's decisions? Kili. He's the most outwardly, angrily vocal dwarves under siege in Erebor. Tauriel and Kili each cared about others outside of their own kind and try to make a case to their respective leaders. Once I realized they shared that trait, I started to really ship them. They actually share ideals. This is something beyond lust and attraction. It gives weight to the relationship. (But maybe that's another thing.)
As for this quote, so many relationships are "love at first sight". Kili/Tauriel, to its credit, is extremely driven by outside consequences and relationships. They really are two frustrated misfits with good hearts. Their relationship is extremely circumstantial. And relationships that aren't "fate" are, IMO, a bit more interesting.
And that is how I learned to stop worrying and ship Kili/Tauriel.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 15 2015, 5:06pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 15 2015, 4:57pm
Post #4 of 148
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But in practice, I don't think it comes across that way, particularly with the whole "because it was real" thing.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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marary
Menegroth
Mar 15 2015, 5:03pm
Post #5 of 148
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Because it was earned.
(it was still an unforgivably cheesy line).
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balbo biggins
Nargothrond
Mar 15 2015, 5:20pm
Post #6 of 148
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but what is kili falling out of love with? when thy meet he is surely in his element.
lets face it the love story is a disaster, cheesy badly played out, unrealisitic, not convincing,not too mention completely off canon. can we just forget about it now please!
id actually b vry intesrested in a hobbit edit with eithr her not in it or the love story removed.
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marary
Menegroth
Mar 15 2015, 5:24pm
Post #7 of 148
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He's not in love when they first meet
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Neither is Tauriel. He only really falls in love during the healing scene, after being booted from the quest by Thorin and being abandoned while dying. Tauriel doesn't really come to grips with her feelings until way after this.
By now, Kili's had a bit of disillusionment and what might feel like betrayal.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 15 2015, 5:26pm)
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Mar 15 2015, 5:32pm
Post #8 of 148
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All of the
Above
Anaylsis...
Awesome
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Ossiriand
Mar 15 2015, 6:04pm
Post #9 of 148
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This isn't the relationship I saw on screen. Maybe if they left out the "why does it hurt" scene, it might have translated better. I can accept the "almost-love-story" or an attraction based on curiosity or fondness. But I don't like the implied "it was real" love - they had two conversations. Tauriel had no reason to be THAT upset over it.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 15 2015, 6:09pm
Post #10 of 148
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Also, there's some question as to how Tauriel got her position as Captain of the Guard. While a capable warrior, she's very young for an elf. It's unlikely she'd have that position unless someone favors her. Legolas says Thranduil favors her... but I think he's not being truthful. Legolas, not Thranduil, is doing all the Tauriel favoring. To make her happy (she does seem to like her job). So he can work alongside her more. She comes off as a bit ambitious and determined to prove herself. When Thranduil says that Legolas thought she fought well, she looks *proud*. Then Thranduil throws that comment about Legolas's crush at her, and she looks surprised and hurt.
That isn't quite how I saw that. Tauriel was surprised (and pleased) to learn of Legolas' feelings toward her. She was hurt when she found out that Thranduil disapproved of the match. So, she is in conflict with her King on two fronts: His isolationist policies and his micromanagement of his son's potential love-life.
It is more difficult to determine what (if anything) Kili is rebelling against. He is not Thorn's direct heir so he might feel a bit neglected as there are few expectations put on him. He is the younger prince who is allowed to party and carry on because he has fewer responsibilities, but maybe that isn't enough for him. He perhaps wants a more meaningful life.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
Mar 15 2015, 6:19pm
Post #11 of 148
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That sounds good on paper, but looked awful on screen.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 15 2015, 6:22pm
Post #12 of 148
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The relationship always felt contrived to me...
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This isn't the relationship I saw on screen. Maybe if they left out the "why does it hurt" scene, it might have translated better. I can accept the "almost-love-story" or an attraction based on curiosity or fondness. But I don't like the implied "it was real" love - they had two conversations. Tauriel had no reason to be THAT upset over it.
My problem with the dialogue between Tauriel and Thranduil after Kili's death is that I never fully bought into the relationship in the first place, so the Elvenking's line didn't seem authentic to me. That and it really was a terribly overwrought exchange.
However, I don't want to devalue Tauriel's feelings. Of course they were real in one sense, but there was a lot more to it than there appeared to be on the surface. She had an honest liking and affection for the Dwarf-prince and healing him forged a further bond, but her feelings toward Legolas and her frustrations over the limitaitons set by her ruler were all mixed up in her head as well.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 15 2015, 6:25pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Mar 15 2015, 7:00pm
Post #13 of 148
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if I look at the four scenes shot as part of the original shoot from Tauriels POV.
L & T meet Dwarves
L & T & T intervew Narzag
L & T by the Lake
T & K healing scene and escape from the dragon.
and then Kili
Dwarves meet Elves
Kili and Tauriel outside cell
Kili is saved and saved again.
I would definitely agree they are falling out of love with Thranduils and Thorins world and Kili's wound gives Tauriel focus to act on that echoes of Aredhel.
But the inserted Thranduil scene " He has grown quite fond of you" her reaction, triangle by the lake and Legolas's heart comment in Dale seem to be driven by a different pulse which gets us to the triangulated death scene and "because it was real".
Apologies to those whom think I bang on to much about the effect of the 2013 filming but I think its relevant here to discussing the shift from John's vision and what we got.
It looks to me like they tied Kili and Tauriel closer, in the end in order to work the relationship off Legolas.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 15 2015, 8:40pm
Post #14 of 148
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On this particular point, I largely agree with you
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I do think the Tauriel/Kili relationship morphed from one thing, which remains intact in DoS, and does adhere closely to what John Howe says here, to something else in BotFA. In this one case, we do have some evidence of studio influence, since both Lilly and Boyens mentioned that the studio asked that the love triangle be added, and I believe it is likely that is the primary reason for the change, which I think was for the worse.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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marary
Menegroth
Mar 15 2015, 8:55pm
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I actually think the story beneath the studio influence and corny lines has plenty of merits, as I outlined in my essay of doom above.
Did the studio intend for Tauriel to also have feelings for Legolas? Thankfully, the script left it ambiguous, and I suspect Evangeline Lilly took that space and ran with her interpretation... she really has no hots whatsoever for the blond elf. A small saving grace.
Tauriel and Kili was too overwrought at the end. The corny lines ("why does it hurt so much?") put me off to it so much the first time I saw it. On a second glance, there's quite a bit of *good* in the pairing, hiding underneath contrived Hollywood pandering and bad lines.
Like so much else in these films, you have to look past a lot of bad to find things that are surprisingly good. Legolas on the falling rocks is terrible, but Ravenhill, on a whole, was epic, for example. Kili/Tauriel (for me) is a big example of this.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 15 2015, 8:58pm)
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Milieuterrien
Nargothrond
Mar 15 2015, 9:20pm
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I agree that working the relationship off Legolas is the point
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and as I scrutinize P Jackson's own motives, I would also agree that working the relationship out of a love triangle is also the point. Simply put, because E Lilly asked to have no triangle, and I cherish PJ to mix something out of his actors in the story and not only out of Sir Tolkien each time he can. All of PJ's crew are spot on own creative purposes, and that's what works with PJ's alchemy. Nothing is hidden there, but everything has to be found in what is shown on screen OR said off screen.
What we have there is no love triangle, but love quadrangle. Don't forget Thranduil.
Maybe Legolas asked him to put Tauriel as a guard captain, but I don't think it was the case, because Thranduil states that Legolas grew found of Tauriel. And Thranduil is clearly shown as a king that has very long foresights : the 'son of Arathorn's affair' in the end is clearly a meaning to coin it, but is not the only one by far. Thranduil is always prompt to gather clues.
Thranduil put Tauriel as the captain of the guards on the first place. How can we imagine that the King would have let his son decide for such thing without having his own opinion about Tauriel and the security of Elves Homeland ? No way.
Now we have three love relationships between Tauriel and Kili, Tauriel and Legolas, Tauriel and Thranduil evolving along the storyline.
Thranduil was soon to have something with Tauriel. Having her as a captain of the guard makes him also having many opportunities to look at her. But what Thranduil couldn't do was having opportunities to look at her fighting. Legolas did it for him, and we all know that Legolas isn't himself a cheap fighter. If Legolas gets to admire Tauriel, that's clearly a plus for Tauriel in Thranduil's eyes.
What we know is that in the process Legolas is thrown out of his own love hope with Tauriel. But could it be other way ? Legolas canon destiny is getting a close friendship with Gimli, one of the most dwarvish dwarves we can imagine. Tauriel touch with Kili paves this way, and is thrown in Legolas face exactly at the moment where he just did all he could to conquer her : killing Bolg (not exactly a detail), saving the dwarf king Thorin's life by giving him an elvish blade (not exactly a detail), and following her after she was expelled by Thranduil, Legolas father and king, then engaged in a very hard conflict with the king. What more could he do to conquer her ? Nothing. But he didn't. Instead he found that Tauriel's love got to... a dwarf. It may be not only confusing for him, but also disgusting. And we all know that disgust is the most powerful foe of love.
The only thing that Legolas ignores is that Tauriel had been asked by Thranduil not to 'give him hope'.
That's how Legolas is thrown altogether out of Tauriel, out of the wood-elves Estate, and almost out of Thranduil's grip.
What is interesting is that at the precise moment of Legolas departure, Thranduil gets nevertheless his kingship grip on Legolas, who was to leave him. And how did he do it ? By sending Legolas near Aragorn, a human being that will happen to be the crush of an elf princess. That means Legolas has definitely something to learn about interracial crushes.
About Tauriel, as I noticed somewhere before, she did exactly what Thranduil asked her : giving no love hope for Legolas.
But not only that. Thranduil asked her if she would die for love. And then she got against Bolg, who for her was no match, while trying to save Kili, the only 'love affair' she had at hand even if she wouldn't want it. Because Kili gave her some strong proof of love while giving her the stone her mother gave him to get himself back to her.
We must agree that Tauriel had a clue that Kili had fallen in love with her, but did she fall in love with him ? In fact she didn't know, or more precisely wasn't sure, until she discovered the devastation in her which occurred when Kili died. A love premise killed too soon.
Because such accident hurts so profoundly, she wouldn't want that kind of feeling, that was so close to the burnt state of mind of Thranduil.
What is also interesting is that she had the reflex to ask Thranduil to make her free about it, which may be seen as a kind of allegiance to him, but moreso (IMO) a desire to be killed on the spot by Thranduil, who had almost done so several minutes before after she had disobeyed him and kinda threaten him.
What is maybe more interesting is that we know that Thranduil won't kill her, because Tauriel did exactly what a lesser elf could do to conquer the heart of an elf king torned by the loss of his loved one : sacrificing her own life for love and ideal without submitting herself to the desire to maintain herself in a noble position or even getting the love of an elven prince (Legolas)
And what is maybe more interesting is that might be the matter for ANOTHER Peter Jackson's Movie in Middle-Earth : the famous missing bridge between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, involving young Aragorn, Legolas, Thranduil, Tauriel, Gollum, Gandalf the Grey, Saroumane, Sauron, Balin, Dwalin, Gloin, Ori, Dain, Bard, Arwen and Galadriel, but no hobbitses.
The BOFA Theater Edition induces us suspecting that something may have been done for it to be done.
But in the first place, Peter Jackson would have to convince Mr Viggo Mortensen, an idealist, to be part of such a disgusting commercial project.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Mar 15 2015, 9:24pm
Post #17 of 148
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You actually articulate my feelings beautifully . I come across much more strident and dismissive of the film makers but i am very close to your way of thinking. I thought lifting the stand off between Thorin and his nemesis into a distinct physical environment was superb. Then I move on to thinking what if the story had remained entirely Dwarf centric.
One day someone will tell us the story of "Orly's" involvement in the films and how it grew and changed and why.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Mar 15 2015, 10:28pm
Post #18 of 148
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Thranduil may just have been given to much to do dramatically :-
1) The angst ridden widower.
2) The interfering parent.
3) The interfering King.
My own view, being a simple soul, is I would have asked Thranduil to do just two things for the story.
A) Focus on how his isolationism came about and explore and highlight why the necklace was so very important to him and then recognise right at the end he was wrong. His wife could have had the story of Celebrian who was tortured and violated in an Orc Den …the Orc being Bolg (Azog died a la Tolkien) which he discovers at the end of the movie as a redemptive catalyst for himself and with Thorin and with Tauriel and of course with Legolas who should now dial V for Aragorn.
B) To hold on to Legolas much longer involve him in the succour of the People of Lake Town which would lead to the recognition of Bard. Only at the end would I have let Legolas, with his intel, rebel and use that for the common good of Dain and Bard disagreeing with his fathers war weariness and taking the view that the world is our fight. He would not have needed to fight much because when Bolg dies the Eagles turn up and the remains of the Gunderbad army are dismayed.
As for Tauriel I would have inverted her Eowyn journey and let her revelation be, in the wake of her healing and saving Kili, her desire to nurture and protect rather than Kick Ass and protect. I would leave her in charge of the woman and children the reverse of Eowyn.
With Kili's funeral she has ample opportunity to thank Kili for giving her the chance to make that journey to self awareness and return the stone. That could have been the point of insightfulness in the way that Marary suggests.
Sorry to go on but I do think less is more sometimes though it takes some explaining !
But your right as told there is stuff between Tauriel and Thranduil and it will be fascinating to hear the directors commentaries in November over these elements.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 16 2015, 12:02am
Post #19 of 148
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I think, what I meant when I said that it's a good way of looking at it is that that is how I rationalise it out. For me that 'it was real' conversation is one of those moments when the script strays into language and attitudes that are too modern and belong to a culture that doesn't fit. I think the interesting part of it is Thranduil's backstory and what they were trying to do with him - Tauriel's part particularly could have been expressed in a way that was much more sensitive to Tolkien's way of doing things.
But you know me now. The line is there in the film and I can't change it. And there is so much in the films that I really do like that I'd sooner take the niggles and make the best of them. John Howe's explanation works for me so that's how I think of it. Romantic lurve for Tauriel and Kili was never on the cards. Had he lived there was no way on Middle Earth that they were going to set up home and raise a family of little dwelves. But as a genuine connection between two characters disenchanted with their own worlds and looking outwards I think it does work. In that sense it was real (I just wish they'd found a better way of saying that it was).
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 16 2015, 12:26am
Post #20 of 148
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The things I dislike about these films, particularly BotFA, are such minor niggles compared to the things that I love. Even when just considering Tauriel and Kili that is true.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Milieuterrien
Nargothrond
Mar 16 2015, 2:13am
Post #21 of 148
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The core of this enigma is 'what was intended to be done with the 'bridge movie'" ?
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I remember at one point, people speculated about the Hobbit being only one movie followed by a 'bridge movie', at least when G Del Toro was in charge.
Then, PJ came around and his team focused on the Hobbit book, so much richer than expected that it ended being sliced in three, without much coming from the appendices in the end, besides the battle between Sauron and the White Council at Dol Guldur which had to be settled into the Hobbit because of Gandalf Arc.
If we regard The 'Hobbit trilogy' to be a full-grown adaptation of the Hobbit book, which indeed clearly is, what about the other appendices stuff ? What about the bridge ?
The Appendices alone are not like a book, but if they get expanded the way the Hobbit has been, couldn't they become a standing movie ?
Such movie could show the resettling of Dale and Laketown, as told by Balin visiting Bilbo in Bag End : nice pictures sure to be done and people to deal with, for Laketown people have been fleshed up,
In Erebor some dwarves are still standing : Dain is a character and a king, but what about the noble dwarves of the quest : will Balin, Dwalin, Oin be able to submit themselves to someone else than Thorin ? We know they will split and try to make a move of their own towards Moria
What about Thranduil and his take on late Mirkwood - East, what about Galadriel coming to Lothlorien and reshaping Dol Guldur ?
What about Saruman and his own plots around the Ring, the region having become more comfortable without the Necromancer in the way ?
Then there is all the Gollum plot, which is quite dynamic and adventurous, involving Aragorn and Thranduil, the Elven Halls and most importantly, Barad-Dur itself, which is huge but has never been exploited before :
How did Sauron install himself there ? How did the war between his orcs and Gondor began ?
About Aragorn : beyond his life as a strider, what about the Dunedain's story, what about their ancient kingdom and its demise as a flashback ?
A plot involving Gollum can be a bridge between all those connexions, because it has been written so by JRR Tolkien himself and also because none of it did appear in the Hobbit, setting a gap more than of a bridge between the two trilogies.
Even the fleshing of Tauriel may have something to do with this, as P Boyens expressed that one of 'the team's biggest regrets' was that they couldn't show her anymore as a heroin after Botfa.
Would such movie be necessary ? Probably not. But there is some room left for a try, still rights-free.
Would it be profitable ? The Hobbit-LOTR addiction could make it profitable, with a low-key profile involving for instance not Peter Jackson himself, but Andy Serkis as a movie-maker, with script aids from the Jackson team.
Would it be enjoyable ? It could pop-up as a surprise-movie, for i'm not sure we know exactly what did Andy Serkis in the last year. And if HE doesn't appear in this movie where Gollum could shine, nobody would, ever.
But also, could such try avoid becoming the film-too-much, when so many people around keep ranting about the 'two-movie/three-movie' split ?
- Wouldn't the scenario suffer from the absence of great battles ?
- Could the capture of Gollum by Sauron become a cliff-hanger ? It might... if LOTR hadn't been filmed yet.
- Are the scenarists' skills enough to upflesh disrupted bits of story to a standalone-movie profile ? Difficult challenge, especially when you can't introduce any new characters
- Could the actors attain the freshness and the involvment such effort requires to be convincing ? I think that would be the most difficult challenge, for 16 years, and not only 11, have passed between the beginning of the franchise and nowadays.
- Could the public cherish a movie not anchored in one known available book ?
All those are quite a bunch of letdowns.
That being said, the 'love quadrangle' between between Tauriel, Kili, Legolas and Thranduil might appear as an engaging promise, but i kinda believe it ends not being engaging enough to flourish further.
What we have left can be enjoyed as a door let open, without really needing to expect more.
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squiggle
Ossiriand
Mar 16 2015, 2:36am
Post #22 of 148
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I like their scenes in the woodelve Dungeons
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from DOS, think they have a nice charm.
Not long after that Kili is pretty much starting to die, & it is not a glamorous dying, it is a slow drawn out sickening type of dying. When he gets saved by Tauriel, he is in delirium. As of now, then after that he's pretty much sucked back into the high stakes middle earth gambits of the dwarve quest, then battle with Bolg.
In the DOS dungeons, Tauriel is amused by his show of interest in her in the situation etc Tauriel is abit hemmed in, she is Captain of the Guard, can't really go beyond formality with Legolas, is tasked with battling spiders in the forest etc She enjoys opening up to Kili other things in her proud Elvish nature, his reciprocation, and they both have a playfulness. The reclaiming of Erebor has been a major fabric for Kili's whole life, and he is also both proud of his background but abit hemmed in by it's duties also.
They are both dedicated, proud but not fanatical caught up in greater currents, but between the two of them Kili got the opportunity to die for love rather than gold and Tauriel have someone die for her 
(This post was edited by squiggle on Mar 16 2015, 2:38am)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Mar 16 2015, 4:24am
Post #23 of 148
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Digression: The 'bridge movie'.
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My notion for a bridge movie is very different (I imagine) from what del Toro and Jackson originally envisioned (and don't forget that it was GdT who actually abandoned the idea before PJ became the director). At this point I would probably just concentrate on Aragorn and his development from a callow youth only recently apprised of his heritage to the experienced tracker, warrior and explorer who plights his troth with Arwen on Ciren Amroth. I'm not even sure how much of Gandalf and Aragorn's hunt for Gollum takes place in the movie-verse. Gandalf somehow located and spoke with the wretched creature, but Gollum seems to have been only recently released from Mordor at the time of the LotR films and we have little or no evidence that he was ever captured by Aragorn and taken to the Woodland Realm.
On the positive side, we can see how Aragorn meets and befriends Gandalf; we can follow the young Ranger's exploits in Rohan and Gondor and how he arouses the suspicions of a young Denethor. We can see what he learns from his experiences in the East and South of Middle-earth. And we can witness the successful raid that Aragorn (as Thorongil) leads against the Corsair fleet in Umbar before his reunion with his life-love in Lothlorien.
Such a film could probably only use Viggo Mortensen as a framing device, with King Elessar serving as narrator. A different actor would be required to play the younger Aragorn (more than one if we explore his birth and upbringing).
Of course, now, there is added reason to have some sort of appearance for Legolas into this movie and perhaps also for Tauriel.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 16 2015, 4:38am)
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 16 2015, 7:09am
Post #24 of 148
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Almost love would have been nice
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Even tho IMO Tauriel is what it is - a Mary Sue. I am still baffled as to how Phillipa could be bubbling over in articles as tho some new ground had been broken, when one can simply check off ten easy Mary Sue characteristics, from the perfection of character to the unusual hair to the supposed loss of parents to the favoritism of a king and everybody loves her and so on.
Even getting the "misguided in thought" to change their ways. I have the uneasy feeling that the filmmakers want to give their creation more depth than what is there - but it's a Mary Sue.
Even so, IMO, thanks to (mostly except the healing scene) some good performances and writing in DOS, if Tauriel and Kili had parted at the lake in BOFA, and that was pretty much the end of it, and Tauriel had gone off into battle - I would have thought, well, OK. A kind of almost-love, what things could be between races, I could have appreciated the tragedy of that, maybe a scene of Tauriel holding the stone (after Kili falls WITH FILI DEFENDING THORIN), staring off into the distance, remembering this dwarf - or something like that.
And then perhaps Thranduil could have had some great line to deliver, based on his own losses.
As it is, for me, the end of a beloved character is for me boring, and looking back at the adorable Kili not in a million years would I have guessed that I would have felt like that. "Contrived" is a good word for how it feels to me.
Not especially well done, with "serviceable" performances. And then it gets worse with more trope and cheesy lines and so on.
Perhaps in the beginning, since evidently there wasn't supposed to be some love triangle, it WAS two being drawn together. But in the end, we had Kili telling Tauriel she made him feel alive (after knowing her for about 20 hours, if that).
 Mostly I think Tauriel started, perhaps, with a reasonable idea, and then was made into something that supposedly appeals to young girls, with a prince who loves her. TWO princes, in fact. 
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marary
Menegroth
Mar 16 2015, 7:13am
Post #25 of 148
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As for Tauriel I would have inverted her Eowyn journey and let her revelation be, in the wake of her healing and saving Kili, her desire to nurture and protect rather than Kick Ass and protect. I would leave her in charge of the woman and children the reverse of Eowyn.
And you know? That's a story I would love to see. Tauriel suffers from being the token female. if she's anything other than a badass warrior, people will complain about the film being anti-feminist because Tauriel is portrayed as "weak".
Arguably, Tauriel is both the warrior, healer (Kili), and nurturer (Bard's daughters).
Unfortunately, you need a huge diversity of females for some of them to be nurturing and some of them to be badass warriors, and for contemporary audiences to be okay with that. In Orange is the New Black, for instance, which has a predominantly female cast, you can play with different kinds of "strong females" without upsetting anyone: some of them get to be strong in a girly way, or even weak, in a complex way of course.
I'd take complex over "strong female warrior" everyday. It's better storytelling and better serves the feminist agenda. But we're not there yet.
I think Tauriel wasn't quite expecting the kingsfoil trick to work, her being a fighter, not a healer. She seemed very stressed out, not confident in the healing scene.
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