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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Oct 30 2014, 5:53pm
Post #1 of 13
(1338 views)
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Kili and Faramir - An Arrow to the Knee
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Has anyone else noticed?
Both Faramir and Kili are brothers of heirs to kingly, but unworthy, fathers suffering from a greed-fuelled madness.
Both are great archers.
Both fall in love with strong battle-trained women.
Both are sent on dangerous tasks by their fathers - resulting in being shot in the leg with a poisoned arrow.
Both become sick from the wound (most likely black-breath in both cases).
Both are effectively turned away by their maddening fathers in favour of their older brother.
Both are healed with the use of Athelas.
After the war After the death of his father and brother, Faramir becomes Steward under rule of a new King (Aragorn).
Kili... Well we don't know yet, but this could be different or similar, we'll have to see. 
Interestingly, Tolkien has said that out of all of his characters Faramir resembles himself the most. So one could argue that Kili has a little of Tolkien in him. 
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Oct 30 2014, 5:53pm)
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Oct 30 2014, 6:06pm
Post #2 of 13
(890 views)
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Great post. But now I just realized I somehow missed out on making bad Skyrim jokes last year.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Oct 30 2014, 6:12pm
Post #3 of 13
(887 views)
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Kili is the "Reckless" Dwarve...
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1. First one to Attack the Trolls
"Release him"
then Bilbo is Thrown on top of him..
Then the rest of the Company Attacks.
2. Later? He is almost the Only Victim of the Spiders..
Saved by T-Girl...
3. Almost izz Murdered in
"Barrels"
By the ONLY ORC ARROW?
to find itz Mark..
The "Young & Reckless" seem to do THAT
all the time.
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Eruvandi
Dor-Lomin
Oct 30 2014, 6:27pm
Post #4 of 13
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I recently watched ROTK again and Faramir took one arrow to the shoulder and one to his stomach, not his leg.
Other than that, interesting observations. They have more in common than I ever thought they did.
Having read the book...erm...I'm pretty sure the end of their stories won't be the same, though.
"Home is behind the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadow to the edge of night
Until the stars are all alight.
Mist and shadow
Cloud and shade
All shall fade
All shall fade"
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dormouse
Gondolin
Oct 30 2014, 6:38pm
Post #5 of 13
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Er... how does Kili's father come into it?
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So far as I remember (I could be wrong) Tolkien never said who Fili and Kili's father was.
As for the rest: archers, check.... falling in love - hmmm - though there's a parallel of sorts between Eowyn and Tauriel
Sent on dangerous task.... Was Kili sent? I had the impression he went, with his brother and his uncle
Was Faramir shot in the leg only? I didn't know he had just one wound....
Athelas, check....
I'm not sure that adds up to much really, though it's lovely and ingeneous. And I doubt Kili will have Faramir's luck....
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Oct 30 2014, 6:45pm
Post #6 of 13
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Oops, yeah Thorin's their uncle, but you get the parallel...
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And in the book Faramir was shot specifically in the leg
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Oct 30 2014, 7:03pm
Post #7 of 13
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Actually not necessarily the leg...
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But a poisoned arrow, not deep or vital, the book says, it was a Southron dart, poisoned by the Nazgul. So still pretty similar to Kili.
I realise it doesn't hold up 100%, but I think there's something in it.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 30 2014, 7:20pm
Post #8 of 13
(818 views)
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It's not really coincidental...
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...it's copying. Scriptwriters are notoriously uncreative. When asked to write a sequel, they copy the original with minor variations. When asked (as in this case) to add a new sympathetic character they find another one to copy. In this case, they made use of the fact that book Faramir was largely ignored in TTT to make Ithilien a new threat rather than a temporary reprieve, and book fans hated it. So, they copy book Faramir as a sympathetic Dwarf. They're using Thorin as a father figure.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Oct 30 2014, 7:28pm
Post #9 of 13
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I can just see QuackingTroll's parallels between film Kili and film Faramir, though I think it's a bit of a stretch. But between Kili in the film and Faramir in the book? I can't see any similarity there at all, beyond both being young (for their kind) and male.
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Oct 30 2014, 7:34pm
Post #10 of 13
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Ha - goodness me. If we applied that to Tolkien
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Creating his own sequel, we would end up being rather less than flattering on his creativity, rather unfairly.
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Avandel
Gondolin
Oct 30 2014, 8:17pm
Post #11 of 13
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Both Faramir and Kili are brothers of heirs to kingly, but unworthy, fathers suffering from a greed-fuelled madness.
1. *Ripping open the stitches on the discussion - again* IMO neither Denethor nor Thorin are unworthy, nor is their madness fueled by greed tho I think w. the Hobbit in the book, Thorin was cast that way. Certainly the film paints a different and more complex picture, e.g. Elrond "a strain of madness runs in that family...". Conversely in the films, I found the portrayal of Denethor distressing as the vision I had of him from the book was far more complex, that of a fierce, aging, prideful man who was maddened by what was shown in the Palantir:
After [Finduilas'] death Denethor became more grim and silent than before, and would sit long alone in his tower deep in thought, foreseeing that the assault of Mordor would come in his time. It was afterwards believed that needing knowledge, but being proud, and trusting in his own strength of will, he dared to look in the palantír of the White Tower. (http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/22876/when-did-denethor-first-start-to-use-the-palantir-of-minas-tirith)
IMO being a proud dwarf, or a proud man, being daring, and falling, doesn't negate the greatness of Thorin or Denethor (or Boromir), nor does being driven = greed, at least not in its usual sense.
2. We don't know what happened to Kili's father, but hardly see Thorin as turning Kili away re Laketown as Thorin has an entire people to think of. And Thorin didn't send Kili anywhere, Kili hopped out of the barrel by himself and got shot....
3. Is Faramir a great archer? He IS an archer, but mostly I know of him being a great leader and captain - the films give Faramir a nice scene shooting a bow but still, that winged creature is so big it's hard to miss tho Faramir is still able to function while everyone else is fleeing in terror.
Plus, their personalities are very different, tho both have very close relationships with their brothers. As for athelas, evidently all races seemed to know something of the benefits of the herb.
So no, comparing Kili and Fili wouldn't cross my mind, tho now that it has been mentioned the complexities of the film Thorin (or book Thorin) and the book Denethor are interesting for me to think about, and the influence of their family/legacies - e.g., Thorin and Thror/Thrain dreaming of taking back Erebor and Thorin carrying that burden, and Denethor with his great lineage and living with the threat to that from Mordor - and also knowing the king may return, and what that would mean for him and his sons.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 30 2014, 9:46pm
Post #12 of 13
(714 views)
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...it is more like the later (RotK) film-Faramir.
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Cirashala
Doriath
Oct 31 2014, 3:39am
Post #13 of 13
(665 views)
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is not accurate.
That was only obtained, IIRC (movie verse) by close exposure to a Nazgul himself- hence "breath".
The morgul shaft that shot Kili is based in elvish- Mor- dark, and -gul, magic, sorcery, necromancy, evil knowledge
So Kili was not necessarily poisoned by a Nazgul related arrow, and definitely not by black breath, but rather by an arrow poisoned with either magic, sorcery, or evil knowledge. And the use of the term necromancy in this definition (gleaned from David Salo (the film's elvish consultant) via Introduction to Sindarin) implies that SAURON, rather than the nine, were involved with poisoning this arrow.
For all we know, this arrow may have been meant for Thorin specifically. Kili happens, sans beard, to look quite a lot like Thorin, Bolg may have never actually seen Thorin in person (I don't see his DOS design Bolg character in Azanulbizar), and if he had, he may have taken the shot at Kili (rather than Thorin) because Kili was actively moving to help them escape and Thorin wasn't in range- he was under the sluice gate and out of the line of vision for the shot.
So the arrow for Kili may have nothing to do with the 9, but rather Sauron himself. It definitely isn't black breath induced- that's only from close exposure to a Nazgul himself. Hence why Eowyn experienced it as well, yet she was not struck with an arrow- she simply was close enough to the Witch King to inhale that breath right before she killed him
And I would agree- Kili got out of the barrel of his own volition, not by Thorin's decree.
You have some very interesting ideas, but I have to disagree. And Thorin shows favoritism toward Kili in many scenes, rather than Fili, so I also disagree with the eldest being the favorite...
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