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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Jackson's Lake-town was big!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 12 2015, 5:09pm

Post #1 of 28 (4490 views)
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Jackson's Lake-town was big! Can't Post

I knew that Esgaroth had to be scaled up for the Hobbit movies, but I never quite realized how much. Weta production designer Dan Hennah stated in The Appendices Part 10 (TH:DoS-EE) that the production team conceived it as a town of 5000 people -- as much as ten times the size of the town as Tolkien depicted it. Of course, if they had kept Lake-town at its original size then Smaug of the films could have destroyed it in a single pass.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 12 2015, 5:11pm)


LSF
Mithlond

Oct 12 2015, 5:15pm

Post #2 of 28 (4446 views)
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indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, when you make the dragon that big, kind of had to make Laketown and the Black Arrow big enough to accomodate him.

The design of Laketown was amazing. Like with all the environments, I want to see all the little details that they put into it, even though the camera would never see them, like the bulletin boards around the town, the market stalls, and the random papers on the Master's desk.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 12 2015, 5:25pm

Post #3 of 28 (4425 views)
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Lake-town's Design [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The design of Laketown was amazing. Like with all the environments, I want to see all the little details that they put into it, even though the camera would never see them, like the bulletin boards around the town, the market stalls, and the random papers on the Master's desk.


Yes, when I see the wide-angle shots of Esgaroth, I am reminded of the town as it was conceived for the MERP role-playing game (the earlier town that was only rotting pilings by the time of the Quest of Erebor):



Or the new Esgaroth designed for The One Ring Roleplaying Game, founded after the Battle of Five Armies:


"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Milieuterrien
Nargothrond

Oct 12 2015, 6:16pm

Post #4 of 28 (4353 views)
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There has been some talks about this before [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember I felt that the Book didn't deal in a very realistic way with the fact that a tiny town populated with few inhabitants, among them elders, women and children, couldn't handle together a destruction by a giant dragon and the sending of an army against an army of thousands of orcs.

Less than one hundred men in age to fight can hardly be called an 'army'.

Not only for Smaug, but also for the following, they had to scale up Laketown.

... which gives way to other oddities, such as : 'how can an town of 5000 sustain itself on a tiny lake without any agriculture around ?'


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Oct 12 2015, 6:17pm)


ThorinsNemesis
Menegroth

Oct 12 2015, 6:17pm

Post #5 of 28 (4350 views)
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Laketown was indeed stunning! [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder though - in the Chronicles book of BOTFA we got a map of Dale (sort of). Does anyone know if any of the books made for the movie, or any Internet site, has a map of Laketown, as it appears in DOS?



balbo biggins
Nargothrond


Oct 12 2015, 6:25pm

Post #6 of 28 (4335 views)
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size [In reply to] Can't Post

it is a town, which in a quasi medieval type world would not have been huge, 5000 would be a city in those terms, and an army could indeed be quite small.

by making everything big and acton movie style you kind of shoot yourself in the foot by having to compensate.


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 12 2015, 6:30pm

Post #7 of 28 (4328 views)
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Images of Lake-town [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen plenty of images of Jackson's Lake-town, but I don't think that I've ever seen it laid out in a diagram or map. If you want to take the earlier image from The One Ring as an approximation of the town's scale, though, then we can compare it to Tolkien's illustration:



And here are a couple of images based on the above drawing:

"Laketown Overview" by artist Henning Janssen.



This last one being from Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth. Fonstad estimated Lake-town to be about two city blocks in size and questioned whether Bard could muster much more than 200 men for his army. Even The One Ring rpg only gives the new Esgaroth a population of about 1000 people eight years after the demise of Smaug.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 12 2015, 6:42pm)


Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond

Oct 12 2015, 7:33pm

Post #8 of 28 (4245 views)
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I don't remember the book saying it was tiny. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I remember I felt that the Book didn't deal in a very realistic way with the fact that a tiny town populated with few inhabitants, among them elders, women and children, couldn't handle together a destruction by a giant dragon and the sending of an army against an army of thousands of orcs.

Less than one hundred men in age to fight can hardly be called an 'army'.

Not only for Smaug, but also for the following, they had to scale up Laketown.

... which gives way to other oddities, such as : 'how can an town of 5000 sustain itself on a tiny lake without any agriculture around ?'


I also don't remember it saying that there were no settlements, temporary dwellings for pasture and agricultural activity on the land around the lake. I would assume the town had pasture and agriculture close by, but with people retreating to the town in times of attack. Alternatively, by trade and services, a town can get everything it needs from elsewhere, as long as goods can be transported.

The UK, for example, is totally unsustainable - with a population of 70 million, we have 44 million people more than the land can sustain (and rising dramatically each year). We get round that by providing services which we swap for use of other peoples' land. That will only work until the other countries need the land for their own populations (a few years), after which we're finished. But in Tolkien's ME, with its low population density and pre-industrial consumption levels, there is potentially no problem with not 'growing your own'.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 12 2015, 7:56pm

Post #9 of 28 (4230 views)
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Settlements in vicinity of Long Lake [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I also don't remember it saying that there were no settlements, temporary dwellings for pasture and agricultural activity on the land around the lake. I would assume the town had pasture and agriculture close by, but with people retreating to the town in times of attack. Alternatively, by trade and services, a town can get everything it needs from elsewhere, as long as goods can be transported.


The south end of Long Lake ends in large waterfalls; that means that goods and boats would have to be ported around the falls to allow river traffic to travel between the lake and the lower River Running. There could well be a small village or thorp at the site of the portage, perhaps with its own inn. I would also expect to find modest Woodmen settlements along the eastern Eaves of Mirkwood and small fishing villages along the shore of Long Lake. Some of the inhabitants might be descendants of Dale whose folk did not settle in Lake-town.

To address a couple of points brought up by Milieuterrian: Bard, in the book, was probably able to muster at least two hundred men from the survivors of Lake-town, but I'm not sure it should have been much more than that. As for the folk of Esgaroth in the films: besides trade, they could sustain themselves with fishing; and, crops and livestock could have been raised along the lake shore and adjacent lands bordering the marshes. But 5000 people might well be the maximum that such a system could support; I couldn't say for sure.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 12 2015, 8:06pm)


CamdenMcAndrews
Ossiriand


Oct 13 2015, 2:26am

Post #10 of 28 (4094 views)
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Where did those numbers come from? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where does Tolkien say that Lake-Town was only 500 people, or that Bard was able to muster an army of 200 men?


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 13 2015, 2:46am

Post #11 of 28 (4085 views)
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Estimates... [In reply to] Can't Post

The figure for Bard's army was from Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth based on the estimated area for Esgaroth extrapolated from J.R.R. Tolkien's illustration. She estimated that Lake-town measured approximately 400 feet by 550 feet for a total area of 220,000 square feet. It might have had as few as fifty structures total including homes, shops, warehouses and public buildings. 200 men was her minimum guess. Henning Janssen's illustration, also based on Tolkien's drawing, depicts a slightly bigger Lake-town; but I'm not sure that the difference is significant.


My estimate of 500 residents might be a bit low, but it couldn't have been very much more--maybe around 700 or 800 people total. But that seems high to me.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2015, 2:50am)


Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond

Oct 13 2015, 3:10am

Post #12 of 28 (4074 views)
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Tolkien's drawings are stylized - I don't think they're supposed to be taken at face value. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't remember what it said in the text, but Laketown worked well as a story element; it didn't come across as a contradictory or illogical element.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 13 2015, 3:36am

Post #13 of 28 (4067 views)
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Contradictory? Illogical? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien never went into detail about the size of Esgaroth; his illustrations are the best clues that we actually have. But it wasn't very large. I haven't referred to anything (from Tolkien at least) as contradictory or illogical. I'm not sure what you mean with that comment.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2015, 3:36am)


Cirashala
Doriath


Oct 13 2015, 3:57am

Post #14 of 28 (4058 views)
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contradiction [In reply to] Can't Post

Bard tells Alfrid, "It's a small town, Alfrid. Everyone knows where everyone lives."

In the type of world that is Middle-earth, as I believe you aptly pointed out at some point above in this thread, a city is not exactly a metropolitic NYC with a population of 17 million (or is it 19 million? I dunno- it's a freaking lot of people in a small area).

Nor is a town about the size of Bree necessarily considered "small". In fact, I'd venture to say that, given its location on a major, transcontinental crossroads between north and south, and east and west, Bree could easily be considered a city much like perhaps Denver, Colorado, US (a major airport hub). It isn't a small city, but it is no New York City either. I'd say Minas Tirith would be a good example of NYC, being the (temporary) capitol of Gondor during the War of the Ring.

I have a tough time equating what Bard says about "a small town" with what would actually comprise a small town in that sort of world.

In our modern society, a town of 5,000 is considered the backbone of rural America (my town is considered quite small with only 3 freeway exits, and it has a population of 27,000 as of 2010). We are quite rural- you can walk for perhaps half a mile in any direction except for towards the freeway (which we're a mile away from) and hit a farm interspersed between housing developments.

5,000 today is a relatively tiny town.

But in Middle-earth, there isn't the concentration of populace in such small spaces like there is today (excepting Gondorian cities like Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, which I mentioned above. I'll also note Hobbiton as being the central city in the Shire). I highly doubt that 5,000 in ME would be considered worthy of the title of "small town".

Esgaroth is a "port town". It supposedly is a town on a trade route, the "middle-man" between former Dale and Erebor to the east and south. But with Dale and Erebor abandoned by the time of the Quest, I imagine Laketown's losses from trade were staggering at best. Now they're at the END of that route, not in the middle.

If the town was so small that Bard can claim (without refute from Alfrid) that everyone knows where everyone lives, then I'd say that your guess of about 500 at most would be believable. That doesn't mean that the city couldn't have been more spread out. Doubtless there was enough of it that remained intact after the initial dragon attack on Erebor to increase it in physical size, if not necessarily population, to substantiate Smaug's attack in the film.

And I'm sure not all of the buildings were necessarily homes Smile



CamdenMcAndrews
Ossiriand


Oct 13 2015, 4:07am

Post #15 of 28 (4059 views)
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You concusion seems to be quite a stretch [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh.

So all this noise is based on this one little drawing...


Lake-Town Illustration by J R R Tolkien



... and then someone else's estimate of the area covered by the town based on a map that yet another person drew, with the assumption that the cartographer somehow incorporated scale from this specific drawing into making the map. And this is what you're sniping at...



Laketown as Envisioned by Weta Digital


Erm... well... ummm... *cough* ...so then... let's move on...


The other question here is how large Lake-Town could be. I assume that would be due to some limitations imposed by its geography. The fact that it's built over water and has lots of canals wouldn't be a hindrance; consider Venice, Italy or Amsterdam, The Netherlands.


Looking deeper, we see that another unique feature of Lake-Town is that it is completely surrounded by water and access to the city from the mainland is limited to just one bridge, watercraft, and flying things. There are a few examples of cities like that, one of which comes to mind...



A Town with Very Limited Access to the Mainland
Beware of Overachiever Apes


Cirashala
Doriath


Oct 13 2015, 4:26am

Post #16 of 28 (4050 views)
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Manhattan is a great example [In reply to] Can't Post

of modern architecture in a small space Smile

However, when one consideres the limitations of architectural achievement in a society (as in, lack of skyscrapers for starters) that would greatly diminish how big Laketown could become. It would have a "sky cap" in terms of height imposed by its architectural limitations, and it would have a width cap of the span of the lake.

Also possible factors to consider is not just up, but DOWN. The lake may be far too deep in spots to build piles/piers tall and wide enough to withstand the weight atop them. They didn't have scuba gear and submarines (obviously), so their ability to build/expand would greatly depend on water depth as well as architectural ability in terms of height.

One could argue that Laketown's biggest limitation rises from the depth of the lake. Assuming that a very skilled human diver (without anything but their own body to aid them except maybe holding a rock to sink faster) can stay under water for a maximum of 4 minutes, it's likely that the piers that support the city were either built before the lake rose in depth, OR were done at a time of year when the lake is the shallowest and they could reach the bottom and construct the piers far more easily than if it were full.

So the best indication of Laketown's ability to grow (and remain on the water) depends on how heavy a finished building would be (height wise), and on how deep the lake is and whether or not it would be possible to construct piles strong enough to bear the weight of the buildings atop them utilizing their limited technology.



Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 13 2015, 4:28am

Post #17 of 28 (4049 views)
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Jackson's Esgaroth [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Bard tells Alfrid, "It's a small town, Alfrid. Everyone knows where everyone lives."


How about this: Dan Hennah stated that Weta's production department designed an Esgaroth that had a population of 5000. However, perhaps that is only 5000 at its height. The number might be significantly smaller by the time of the Quest of Erebor (half that or less). Does this make more sense? Remember my estimate of around 500 (or at least well under 1000) was for Tolkien's Lake-town, not the one of the films.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2015, 4:28am)


Cirashala
Doriath


Oct 13 2015, 4:31am

Post #18 of 28 (4044 views)
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Fair enough [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes book vs film can get muddled in these conversations Evil

And yes, it does make sense. I was thinking in terms of "time of the quest", not "at its height". Of course, they wouldn't demolish buildings just because no one lived there! Not unless they had a great need to do so, which I highly doubt. It's not like there isn't firewood aplenty on shore Wink



Milieuterrien
Nargothrond

Oct 13 2015, 4:38am

Post #19 of 28 (4042 views)
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That's a common problem in Fantasy [In reply to] Can't Post

Rural life - as well as urban life - is mostly forgotten in its true size.

When drawing a city, who is willing to put together one thousand true houses ?
Throughout all the Middle Ages, nobody did, miniatures were even showing people equalling the size of the walls of a fortress

You'll have to wait for military and architect drawings, specially made for the sovereign's administration; to get things better shown


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 13 2015, 4:47am

Post #20 of 28 (4041 views)
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Hi, Cam... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien did more than one illustration of Lake-town; here's another:





The scale seems pretty consistent with the first one but, yes, the numbers are only estimates (as I've been saying all along). And I don't think that I'm sniping at all. I'll take the films' production designer at his word for the maximum capacity of (Weta's) Lake-town. 5000 residents seems like plenty for the great, wealthy and powerful trading-center of the North in Middle-earth (before it's decay).


The late Karen Wynn Fonstad was a trained and noted cartographer, respected in her field. She taught geography at the University of Wisconsin and she authored several other, well-liked atlases of fantasy worlds. I trust her skills and her qualifications on this subject.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2015, 4:50am)


Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond

Oct 13 2015, 4:53pm

Post #21 of 28 (3971 views)
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Even in recent times, illustrations are not always to scale. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien never went into detail about the size of Esgaroth; his illustrations are the best clues that we actually have. But it wasn't very large. I haven't referred to anything (from Tolkien at least) as contradictory or illogical. I'm not sure what you mean with that comment.


Have a look at Turner's watercolours of Britain - comparatively recent depictions, but try making topographical estimates from them. They're way out. Or have a look at cartography from as recently as the eighteenth century in Highland Scotland - it's ludicrously inaccurate. You can't make any sensible measurements from Tolkien's illustrations.

I don't find anything unrealistic about the depiction of Laketown in the book, as was suggested earlier in this thread, by someone else. I.e. there's nothing contradictory or illogical in it. Both the book and film work fine with scales and armies etc.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 13 2015, 5:14pm

Post #22 of 28 (3967 views)
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To scale, or not to scale? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that there is a correct answer to that question. We can't know either way. If nothing else, we can view Tolkien's illustrations of Lake-town as the low-end estimate of its size. But (in the continuity of the books) I still don't think it would be much more than half-again what the illustrations suggest. Of course, even that is just an opinion.

Just remember that we are discussing a town made of wood, constructed on wooden platforms on wooden pilings. This isn't Venice and it isn't a modern mega-construction project. The size of Esgaroth is limited by the technology and resources available in the region. A settlement of 5000 seems reasonable for Peter Jackson's Lake-town at or near its height. I think that it is safe to say that Tolkien's concept for the town at the time of the Quest of Erebor was much smaller, especially since Esgaroth was in decline.

My rough estimate of the size of Bard's army:
- 200 to 300 men in the book.
- 400 to 500 men in the films ("several hundred angry fishermen").

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2015, 5:15pm)


Bumblingidiot
Nargothrond

Oct 13 2015, 5:55pm

Post #23 of 28 (3949 views)
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Small, as in area, perhaps. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Bard tells Alfrid, "It's a small town, Alfrid. Everyone knows where everyone lives."

In the type of world that is Middle-earth, as I believe you aptly pointed out at some point above in this thread, a city is not exactly a metropolitic NYC with a population of 17 million (or is it 19 million? I dunno- it's a freaking lot of people in a small area).

Nor is a town about the size of Bree necessarily considered "small". In fact, I'd venture to say that, given its location on a major, transcontinental crossroads between north and south, and east and west, Bree could easily be considered a city much like perhaps Denver, Colorado, US (a major airport hub). It isn't a small city, but it is no New York City either. I'd say Minas Tirith would be a good example of NYC, being the (temporary) capitol of Gondor during the War of the Ring.

I have a tough time equating what Bard says about "a small town" with what would actually comprise a small town in that sort of world.

In our modern society, a town of 5,000 is considered the backbone of rural America (my town is considered quite small with only 3 freeway exits, and it has a population of 27,000 as of 2010). We are quite rural- you can walk for perhaps half a mile in any direction except for towards the freeway (which we're a mile away from) and hit a farm interspersed between housing developments.

5,000 today is a relatively tiny town.

But in Middle-earth, there isn't the concentration of populace in such small spaces like there is today (excepting Gondorian cities like Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, which I mentioned above. I'll also note Hobbiton as being the central city in the Shire). I highly doubt that 5,000 in ME would be considered worthy of the title of "small town".

Esgaroth is a "port town". It supposedly is a town on a trade route, the "middle-man" between former Dale and Erebor to the east and south. But with Dale and Erebor abandoned by the time of the Quest, I imagine Laketown's losses from trade were staggering at best. Now they're at the END of that route, not in the middle.

If the town was so small that Bard can claim (without refute from Alfrid) that everyone knows where everyone lives, then I'd say that your guess of about 500 at most would be believable. That doesn't mean that the city couldn't have been more spread out. Doubtless there was enough of it that remained intact after the initial dragon attack on Erebor to increase it in physical size, if not necessarily population, to substantiate Smaug's attack in the film.

And I'm sure not all of the buildings were necessarily homes Smile


In English terms, Bree seems quite similar to the village I grew up in: about 250 houses spread out over 3 settlements; one large village, one small village and a hamlet, with woods, fields and attendant farms separating and surrounding them. Two pubs, one church and three shops in total, plus a hairdressers and a garage. That's 6-800 people in total. Tolkien calls Bree a village, so perhaps 150 homes in the village itself would be the maximum.

My nearest town was one of the main market towns in the country; it had about 7000 people in the 1970s, but would have been much smaller in the middle ages. You can sometimes see the size of a medieval town by tracing the town wall and gates on the map - it's usually fairly compact. but that doesn't mean its proportionally smaller in population; part of my house is an old cottage, 7x5 metres, one and a half stories. People in the village can remember when it housed a family of nine people. Add a couple of stories and that's a lot of people in a small space. Also, given that people won't be commuting to work, but will be dealing with others in the community all the time, and that each household will know each other and their neighbours intimately, then the average person will know a lot more of the townsfolk than they do today. Even when I was growing up, we knew all the shop keepers in the town, at least by sight (no supermarkets), and at least one child from most families, via the school etc.

So, for a town of 5000, Bard's statement is pretty reasonable. It's not a literal statement, but it's similar to things our locals would say as a way of pointing out that nefarious activity will get found out. When Bard says it's a 'small town', I take it that he means small in area, with everyone living on top of each other, (compared to Bree, for example, or Hobbiton), so news will spread like wildfire.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome


Oct 13 2015, 7:26pm

Post #24 of 28 (3929 views)
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Esgaroth's Population [In reply to] Can't Post

I would keep in mind that 5000 persons is the number of residents that Lake-town (in the films) was built to house. By the time of the Quest of Erebor that number was probably much reduced--maybe less than half of that. And then many were killed when Smaug attacked. The survivors of Lake-town probably numbered less than 1000 including women, children and the elderly.

Tolkien's Lake-town might have had about the same size population as Bree or maybe a little larger. I doubt that it topped 1000 (and, as you know, I tend to guess lower). Your estimate of 600 to 800 folk for Bree works for Esgaroth as well as far as I'm concerned (although they would be much more cramped).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 13 2015, 7:28pm)


CamdenMcAndrews
Ossiriand


Oct 13 2015, 10:08pm

Post #25 of 28 (3901 views)
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Yes, lots of geographical details might limit Laketown [In reply to] Can't Post

For sure, there might be several geographical factors limiting how much Laketown can sprawl and how high the structures could grow. But we have no information on what Tolkien was thinking about that, if he thought about it at all.

The point about New York City is that being surrounded by water with very limited access to the mainland is not, by itself, a limit to the growth of the city's population.

And the underlying point: This whole thread was presented as harsh criticism of a movie production, based on a single phrase spoken in one of the production videos and supported by a tenuous thread of logic. That's really scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to thinking up ways to snipe at the movies.

If it had been presented as "What do you suppose might have been the population of Laketown?" it would have been a whole different story.

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