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DavidDevant
Menegroth
Dec 22 2013, 2:14am
Post #1 of 11
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Gandalf's alleged "surprise" in FOTR
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Can I ask someone for an explanation of, or alternatively put to bed, the repeated allegation that Gandalf is "surprised" by Sauron's return in FOTR (and thus the suggestion that this is some sort of problem for the Hobbit films).
Gandalf is not surprised at all - he describes Sauron's status is some detail, as the transcript excerpt below shows:
"Gandalf: This is the One Ring. Forged by the Dark Lord Sauron in the fires of Mount Doom. Taken by Isildur from the hand of Sauron himself.
Frodo: Bilbo found it. In Gollum’s cave.
Gandalf: Yes. For sixty years the Ring lay quiet in Bilbo’s keeping, prolonging his life, delaying old age. But no longer Frodo. Evil is stirring in Mordor. The Ring has awoken. It’s heard its master’s call.
Frodo: But he was destroyed. Sauron was destroyed.
Gandalf: No, Frodo. The spirit of Sauron endured. His life force is bound to the Ring and the Ring survived. Sauron has returned. His orcs have multiplied. His fortress of Barad-Dur is rebuilt in the land of Mordor. Sauron needs only this Ring to cover all the lands of a second darkness. He is seeking it. Seeking it, all his thought is bent on it. The Ring yearns above all else to return to the hand of its master. They are one, the Ring and the Dark Lord. Frodo, he must never find it."
Gandalf has been surprised that Bilbo's ring is linked to Sauron, and Frodo has been surprised that Sauron was not destroyed. But Gandalf is not in the least surprised that Sauron has returned.
So where are these repeated comments coming from? Any thoughts much appreciated.
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Dec 22 2013, 2:17am
Post #2 of 11
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People that aren't that familiar with the movies just keep bringing it up. Sometimes just out of genuine curiosity and sometimes out of a need to point out "plot holes" to fans.
And while we're talking about Gandalf's knowledge of Sauron, I'd like to point out something in FotR. The moment when Saruman says "you know of what I speak, Gandalf. A great eye, lidless, wreathed in flame" and Gandalf says "The Eye of Sauron" (great performances from both of them). That exchange now has even more weight behind it after seeing Gandalf's confrontation with Sauron. I love it!
(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Dec 22 2013, 2:25am)
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tsmith675
Mithlond
Dec 22 2013, 2:37am
Post #3 of 11
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People are always looking for plot holes, and that makes no sense to me. How could you ever enjoy anything if you're always looking for what's wrong?
"This day we FIGHT!"
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 22 2013, 3:22am
Post #4 of 11
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that he does know that Sauron is stirring in Middle-earth, but the revelation that the Black Riders have crossed the Bruinen is an indication that Sauron is reaching beyond Mordor and starting to be active beyond his borders. The early stages of Sauron's next war have begun, and that's enough to give any Istari pause.
Regarding Gandalf not twigging that Bilbo's ring was the One Ring, I've long thought that this was a weakness in Tokien's story. The Nine, the Five and the Three are all accounted for (whether in someone's possession or destroyed), with the One still to be found. Bilbo's ring clearly is powerfully magical, from its invisibility to its influence on Bilbo's character, so unless Middle-earth has a few more magic rings kicking around, the Hobbit's must be the One Ring.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Scorchster
Ossiriand
Dec 22 2013, 4:34am
Post #5 of 11
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Gandalf couldn't possibly not be suspicious of Bilbo's ring once he found out. Especially given Sauron's recent reappearance at Dol Guldur. I always thought it quite strange that Gandalf wouldn't suspect the ring.
I think this is one of those things Tolkien would have changed if he managed to publish his planned Hobbit revision. After all when he wrote the Hobbit it was just a magic ring, not the One Ring.
Concerning the rings though, the Silmarillion states that the elves did create some lesser magic rings in the Second Age, so it's not entirely impossible for Gandalf to think Bilbo's ring might have been one of those.
But still, he is a Maiar for goodness sake, he should know better! Even movie Aragorn (not sure about the book version, can't remember) guessed it in Bree after just seeing it once!
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patrickk
Nargothrond
Dec 22 2013, 5:52am
Post #6 of 11
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...as soon as he saw Bilbo dissapear at his birthday party in FOTR, it is just that it took him a long time to do the necessary (library) research to confirm it.
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moreorless
Mithlond
Dec 22 2013, 9:35am
Post #7 of 11
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Without this Gandalf's actions make little sense...
[In reply to]
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that he does know that Sauron is stirring in Middle-earth, but the revelation that the Black Riders have crossed the Bruinen is an indication that Sauron is reaching beyond Mordor and starting to be active beyond his borders. The early stages of Sauron's next war have begun, and that's enough to give any Istari pause.
For Gandalf's choice to leave Frodo and Sam whilst he looks for Saruman's help to be a sound one he needs the gap in his knowledge about the Nazgul.
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Eleniel
Dor-Lomin
Dec 22 2013, 1:14pm
Post #8 of 11
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Ah, but you are forgetting Saruman's role in all this...
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Gandalf was suspicious initially, once Bilbo actually told him about the Ring - but don't forget, Bilbo lied about how he got it. Gandalf wouldn't have expected it to be given away so easily, knowing something of the nature of such rings. It was Saruman, however, who lulled Gandalf and the rest of the White Council into a false sense of security by convincing them that the One Ring had rolled down the Anduin and into the sea, where it was lost beyond reach.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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MistyMountain
Menegroth
Dec 22 2013, 7:11pm
Post #9 of 11
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I have often found that scene in Orthanc perplexing and wondered to what they are referring. Did Gandalf have some kind of run in with Sauron sometime in the past? Now it seems we know that he did indeed have a run in with Sauron!
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morgul lord
Ossiriand
Dec 22 2013, 9:16pm
Post #10 of 11
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I watched FOTR this week, and was amazed at how many connections it has to the Hobbit (bits of dialogue, references, etc.).
I thought this after seeing AUJ, but now after DOS, the Orthanc scene makes so much more sense. I always wondered about that exchange ("You know of what I speak..."), and now we know Gandalf has seen the eye up close and personal!
(This post was edited by morgul lord on Dec 22 2013, 9:17pm)
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KingTurgon
Nargothrond
Dec 22 2013, 9:43pm
Post #11 of 11
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No kidding. I definitely agree with you.
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