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Jettorex
Menegroth
Jun 20 2008, 3:52pm
Post #1 of 19
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Is the thrush in The Hobbit --Gandalf?
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.....and how/will it be portrayed in the movie?
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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Patty
Elvenhome
Jun 20 2008, 6:23pm
Post #2 of 19
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*Smauggg has a weaknesssssssss*
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like in the BBC audio of The Hobbit?
You know, Jettorex, that is an interesting concept. Gandalf (in his Maia form) did aid elves and men by whisperings of support and strength. It is not out of the range of possibility that this was the thrush. Um...
Hanging out with the Lonely Isle elves.
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Finduilas101
Ossiriand
Jun 20 2008, 6:38pm
Post #3 of 19
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I hadn't thought that before. Nice going.
"I like cooking, but I like other people cooking more." -David Wenham
"I think being different, going against the grain of society, is the greatest thing in the world." -Elijah Wood.
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Jettorex
Menegroth
Jun 20 2008, 6:47pm
Post #4 of 19
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The Thrush is telling Bard of Smaugs bare spot and then that is where the next location that Gandalf shows up after his absence as "the old man".
plus, I don't think we ever see/read that the thrush and Gandalf are together at the same time. Curious.
Love, Truth, Honor, Adventure
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 21 2008, 1:36am
Post #5 of 19
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Certainly is interesting idea...
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...but it would require some research and a carefully built-up case to go so far as make such a connection plain enough to a movie-going audience. IOW, it might be crossing the line as far as taking artistic liberties with the material. Unless you can hit a bullseye, it's sometimes better to take the conservative approach.
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Jun 21 2008, 2:02am
Post #6 of 19
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Well, I'm already questioning...
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why a wizard who could turn himself into a thrush would need to be rescued by an eagle....? ;)
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 21 2008, 6:40am
Post #7 of 19
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And I was thinking... I hope then that no one will turn around and suggest some possible alternate option, of influencing the thrush by enchantment (by Gandalf). That, if it were proposed, would not hold water either for a couple of reasons: a) communicating with the thrushes by Bards people goes way back and was a relatively common talent (innate?) with those people; and b) it also would not be consistant with Tolkien's beastiary introduced in the story so far to that point.
(Note: This has only been a pre-emtive "Shhhsh!" No one has actually proposed such a scenario... yet... that I know of...;)
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
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Empedocles
Ossiriand
Jun 21 2008, 4:39pm
Post #8 of 19
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But it actually got me thinking about something different. What if the dwarves would encounter Radagast roaming around the Lonely Mountain on Gandalf's instructions and it would be Radagast the one that would talk to the thrush and send him to the Dale to inform Bard of the Dragon's weakness. That'll be great, we'll get to see a new character, and an interest one indeed, who could later appear in F2; and also the whole talking-to-the-animals thing will be better addressed since the "one" talking would be someone who can actually communicate with animals. I know it's a deviation from the book but it's just that I still refuse to accept talking birds, or wargs or wallets, etc.
Please, give us back Glorfindel!!!
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 21 2008, 8:46pm
Post #9 of 19
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Hmmm... that has some merits of its own...
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...but, as you say, there would have to be deviations from the book. Such as...
The thrush's seeming to listen to the Bilbo and the party-of-not-an-unlucky-number while they bemoan their situation whilst encamped outside the back door. I could see Radagast or Gandalf giving some warning and instruction to the thrush to be on the lookout for such a party and esspy what goes on.
But if in this hypothetical scenario Radagast were to instruct the thrush to take the details to Bard after the thrush makes report back about what was seen and overheard, how does Radagast know of Bard's presence in Lake Town? The same could be asked of the thrush as well. The implication is the thrushes know because they have kept track of the fates of their once allies. Radagast could learn the same through them. But introducing him here into the story serves nothing toward solving any of these questions.
Moreover, in the book it is apparent the thrush is exceedingly intelligent for his form, and is able to act upon its own initiative. It's almost like there is a devine quality about him(them). Some of those qualities would have to be downplayed in order to justify introduction of a new puppetier into the story.
One thing I think it would serve would be to upset a significant segment of the audience devoted to the fidelity of the tales. And if talking animals are an issue difficult to accept, I think it may be a hard go. Because The Hobbit is full of 'em -- not as Narnia, or pure fables, but lots.
So, talking wallets? Do you mean to say that "Money Talks?" ;P
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
(This post was edited by mwirkk on Jun 21 2008, 8:55pm)
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Empedocles
Ossiriand
Jun 21 2008, 9:25pm
Post #10 of 19
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the wallet of one of the Trolls, which actually speaks when Bilbo tries to steal it. I always thought that talking things or animals were just devices that Bilbo used to tell the story to his nephews and nieces, and that that is the reason why they were removed (at least most of them) from LOTR. But after GDT saying that the animals "will" talk, I guess there's nothing else but to accept the talking-beast thing. Besides, the poll shows that I'm in the minority here, so I'll just shut up now.
Please, give us back Glorfindel!!!
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Jun 21 2008, 10:33pm
Post #11 of 19
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Okay as a hypothetical, this could have happened right after ...
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Gandalf left Thorin at the Prancing Pony. One of the things that struck me while re-reading the appendices was this part about Gandalf meeting Thorin one evening in Bree.
Gandalf was on his way to the Shire. He was worried because he knew that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. He knew the only thing that stood between him and Rivendell, was the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. He also knew that Sauron would use the dragon Smaug, in Rivendell’s destruction.
So lets say he meets up with Radagast, and ask of him to tell the birds and beasts to bring any news about Smaug to The Lonely Mountain. Works for me.
Appendix A
But at last there came about by chance a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin that changed all the fortunes of the House of Durin, and led to other and greater ends beside. On a time Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 22 2008, 4:11am
Post #12 of 19
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Ahhhh, purse! I didn't make the synonym connection with wallet. Sorry. The bad joke I couldn't pass up, though. ;)
As per the polls, thatnks for reminding me. I have a nit to pick with the current one (about talking animals)...I think I need to pay more attention to what's going on over on the Pollantir board. It's hard to make a case after the fact/once a polls put out. :(
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 22 2008, 4:20am
Post #13 of 19
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...that not a bad way to explain how Radagast gets into the plot. It could eliminate that one problem with the scenario, at least. Nice idea! :)
(FYI: This is my 5th post on this thread, the max I try to set for myself, so I'll probably have to make it my last here.)
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
(This post was edited by mwirkk on Jun 22 2008, 4:21am)
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Jun 22 2008, 4:35am
Post #14 of 19
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(This is my 6th posthere , which is over my self-imposed max, but an obvious fact I overlooked just occurred to me - sorry!)
...is that Gandalf can't be the thrush because he's occupied elsewhere, in the south of Mirkwood. There would be no opportunity to pose out of sight and suspicion in an alternate and unrecognized form. And why he'd want to I'm not sure. To let the party-of-no-unlucky-number learn some self-sufficiency? I doubt it. Their travels through Mirkwood very nearly ended them, and Gandalf knew they would be perilous. Where would Gandalf be then if not dealing with more important matters?
I think that pretty much kicks a leg out from under the three-legged stool.
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
(This post was edited by mwirkk on Jun 22 2008, 4:37am)
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SirDennisC
Gondolin
Jun 22 2008, 5:36am
Post #15 of 19
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I remember wondering if the thrush could be Gandalf when I read the account of his delivering the intel to Bard. But if memory serves (I might have to reread) Gandalf claims to have been busy until we see him again at the camp... that would make him a liar, which goes against his nature. As well, Coiq (sp?) the raven can talk and so can the eagles. There for talking birds need not be wizards in disguise.
Although I seem to recall that it was not so much that the birds could talk but rather that the people listening (some of them at least) could understand them.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jun 22 2008, 5:59am
Post #16 of 19
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"Then thou art the spokesman, old grey bird? Have we not heard of thee [singing?] at whiles ... ever *hatching* plots and mischief at a safe distance?"
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Here's a link to an earlier suggestion of that idea.
It's merely a slight symbolic connection, of course.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jun. 16-22 for "The Palantír".
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mae govannen
Dor-Lomin
Jun 23 2008, 8:26am
Post #17 of 19
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who is even mentioned in 'The Hobbit' and appreciated by Beorn...
Here he would be the thrush, in LotR he would be the butterfly!!!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 23 2008, 9:24am
Post #18 of 19
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I'd say no. I've always taken the Thrush relationship with the Dwarves to be like the old Alliance between the Men of Gondor and the Elves. An alliance hugely neglected after the Dwarves left and Smaug took over residence... but still alive :D
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
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Patty
Elvenhome
Jun 23 2008, 4:16pm
Post #19 of 19
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Hanging out with the Lonely Isle elves.
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