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Noria
Hithlum
Sep 15 2016, 12:54pm
Post #26 of 65
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I gave up any expectation that either geography or the passage of time adhered to that of the books or even made much sense sometimes. Didn't care then, don't care now.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 15 2016, 1:17pm
Post #27 of 65
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Why is it 'an issue', Otaku....
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In any of the six films? If it takes a day, or a week, or several weeks to go through Mirkwood, or travel from one place to another - or if, as in most cases, the films simply don't specify how much time has passed between point A and point B, does that actually make a difference to the story?
We need to know that travelling through Mirkwood is difficult and beset with a series of dangers. The film takes care to show us that.
We need to know that Bilbo finds himself alone facing giant spiders that have captured the dwarves and has to find the courage to deal with that - and that his ring helps him. The film shows us all those things.
We need to know that Bilbo manages to escape notice from the Elves and yet enter the King's realm; we need to know he uses his invisibility to work out how to free the dwarves and succeeds; the film shows us all that.
The careful and precise calendar and the mapped-out landscapes that Tolkien obviously enjoyed may be very satifying to a reader, who has the time to think about them and analyse them, and study the maps but what difference do they make, really, in a film with only a very limited time to tell the story? In the film we know what we need to know to understand the story: the journey is a very long one; it has to be completed by Durin's Day; there are pitfalls and dangers all along the way, and a few unexpected friends. When there are specific questions relating to the landscape - as, for example, why do they need to go through Mirkwood if it's so dangerous; couldn't they just go round the edge - the script is careful to provide the answer. I don't think the rest is 'an issue'. It's just a difference between the book and the film.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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LSF
Mithlond
Sep 15 2016, 1:32pm
Post #28 of 65
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I thought it was reather obvious...
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That they only spent until the next morning in Thranduil's dungeon. They're making a big deal about it being morning, which isn't something you do if it's morning two weeks later.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2016, 2:41pm
Post #29 of 65
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Willing suspension of disbelief
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If it isn't something that bothers you then it is not an issue for you. As someone who has often referred to and studied maps of Middle-earth, though. I have a good idea of the distances and terrain involved in the travels of the Company of Thorin. So when Bilbo and the Dwarves reach the Lonely Mountain after only half a day's travel from Lake-town it takes me right out of the movie; I know that the journey should have taken four days. And easily avoided contradictions in continuity bug me--such as when we are told that the company arrives in Esgaroth two days before Durin's Day yet when the company (minus those remaining in Lake-town) leaves for the Mountain, we seem to have missed an entire day that remains unaccounted for.
It irritates me when the Moon is a crescent when Bilbo enters the Mountain but is full (and to the north!) when Smaug attacks Lake-town, presumably only hours later. If you find it easy to ignore such things then more power to you.
What it comes down to is that I dislike it when a director is sloppy and lazy regarding in-film continuity. That is definitely one of Peter Jackson's flaws as a filmmaker.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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DainPig
Mithlond
Sep 15 2016, 3:01pm
Post #30 of 65
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When I asked "and Bilbo leaving the company because of Thorin's word would have happened in Mirkwood?" I referred to the cave scene in An Unexpected Journey. The film would need a story arc. Do you even know what I am talking about, man?
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
dainpigblog.blogspot.com
historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com
(This post was edited by DainPig on Sep 15 2016, 3:08pm)
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MyWeeLadGimli
Menegroth
Sep 15 2016, 3:40pm
Post #31 of 65
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In the book, the Company have been there so long they've run out of supplies and are approaching starvation. That's why they desperately intrude on the Elven-feasts, causing their capture/rescue from death. It adds a greater sense of urgency to the story, since our heroes' lives are on the line with every passing minute.
In the movie, it seems they could have just kept wandering indefinitely. The only real sense of urgency is that they need to get out of there before Durin's Day, but that's a more remote and less severe concern.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2016, 3:43pm
Post #32 of 65
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When I asked "and Bilbo leaving the company because of Thorin's word would have happened in Mirkwood?" I referred to the cave scene in An Unexpected Journey. The film would need a story arc. Do you even know what I am talking about, man?
Bilbo almost leaves the company in An Unexpected Journey but it never actually happens because the goblins capture most of the party instead. If the plan for two films was kept then the Mirkwood sequences would have been in AUJ, not in the second movie (which would have begun after the introduction of Bard).
What I thought you meant was when Bilbo takes the Arkenstone to Bard and Thranduil after Thorin breaks his word to the folk of Lake-town. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 15 2016, 3:45pm)
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DainPig
Mithlond
Sep 15 2016, 4:08pm
Post #33 of 65
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I love you.
It would have been interesing to see the final hug scene in the shores of the Forest River instead of Carrock. I think this was the original plan.
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
dainpigblog.blogspot.com
historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 15 2016, 4:11pm
Post #34 of 65
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Yes, but as the elf fires weren't included in the film...
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...there was no need to emphasise their hunger and no obvious peg to hang that piece of information on.
As for wandering indefinitely, I'd say not. Even without the elf fires it seems pretty obvious to me in the film that they can't carry on as they are for long before something gets them - it's that kind of place.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Sep 15 2016, 5:52pm
Post #35 of 65
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I think it is always difficult for a movie to show a great deal of time passage - first of all, because they've only got X amount of time to show the events, so these events often look like they happen one after another. It's even worse in a play, where the audience has to read the program to really get a sense of time. I thought the Mirkwood scenes were better than most, possibly because of the disorienting effect, the exhaustion that the Company shows, etc. But I suppose one brief campfire scene could have gotten that point across. It does appear that they barely spent 24 hours in the dungeons, as opposed to the weeks in the book, but again, that could be difficult to film. I remember in that "Twilight" movie there was a scene where the months were displayed while Bella sat in a chair in her room - but PJ would have had to throw the words "Weeks Later" up on the screen to get the same effect. Nah, I'd rather not see that. Stephen Hunter described a scene where Bombur was so depressed that he wouldn't eat - obviously a cut scene, but would that have helped show a stretch of time? I dunno. What would have worked for you?
And, because it's Thorin Thursday!
There's a little bit of Bombur as well
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Sep 15 2016, 5:55pm
Post #36 of 65
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 But that could support Bilbo telling Fili that Thorin has "been down there for days" in BOT5A. OTOH, that also implies that Kili was at Bard's house for what, a week?
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Noria
Hithlum
Sep 15 2016, 7:54pm
Post #37 of 65
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I too love Tolkien’s maps and tracing the journeys, chronolgies and timelines and so on. They, and his appendices, are great part of Tolkien’s world for those of us who want more detail but they are only applicable to the books.
The movies set their own rules and live in their own universe and are under no obligation to conform to every detail Tolkien's. Though, for all we know the writers could have carefully laid out book timelines and distances In the script only to have them abandoned and ignored in the editing room. Except when we are explicitly told how much time has passed or ground was covered, we can only go by our impressions. TYhos can't be accurate because we aren't shown every moment of every day.
But seriously, I realized after watching FotR that even though PJ carefully showed us the maps, the time and space of his Middle-earth wasn’t going to be constrained by such things. I don’t recall if it originated with Kubrick or somebody else, but I seem to remember PJ repeating that famous quote “Continuity is for pussies.” To my mind all that means is that film makers care more for artistry than literal veracity. We see it all the time, especially in films which purport to be about actual events, like Argo.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2016, 8:42pm
Post #38 of 65
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I (maybe?) see what you're getting at.
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It would have been interesing to see the final hug scene in the shores of the Forest River instead of Carrock. I think this was the original plan.
Hmmm, that would have altered the pacing a bit, but since Mirkwood is where Bilbo proves himself to the company in the book then that might work. And then Bard shows up with arrow drawn. Cut to credits.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2016, 9:02pm
Post #39 of 65
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But that could support Bilbo telling Fili that Thorin has "been down there for days" in BOT5A. OTOH, that also implies that Kili was at Bard's house for what, a week?
Well, if we accept what seems to be the original intent in the films, the company arrives in Esgaroth on September 28 only to find that Durin's Day is two days away on September 30, according to the lunar-phase calendar in Bard's home. We never get a good look at the calendar, but we do see the Dwarves studying it when that line of dialogue is delivered.
The night of that same day, Thorin leads a raid on the town's armory, but the company is caught when Kili inadvertently raises the alarm. The main body of the company leaves the next morning and, within the film-continuity, should arrive at the Lonely Mountain late the next day. By rights it should take twice as long, but PJ has already established ;his deadline. Smaug attacks late that night (or well before dawn of the next day).
- Sept, 28: The Company of Thorin arrives at Esgaroth.
- Sept. 29: The company leaves Esgaroth, leaving Fili, Kili Oin and Bofur behind.
- Sept. 30: They arrive at Erebor on Durin's Day. Bilbo discovers the hidden stair, solves the puzzle of the Secret Door and enters the Mountain.
- Oct. 1: Smaug attacks Lake-town before dawn. Fili, Kili, Oin and Bofur take a boat to leave for Erebor.
Okay, Kili is still recovering from his injury and all four must already be exhausted. Plus none of them are likely to be skilled in handling boats. It probably takes them longer to reach the Mountain than did Thorin and the others--say three or four days. Hence, Thorin has been searching for the Arkenstone for days.
I realize that this timing doesn't entirely jibe with the finished films because PJ seems to have dropped one day in Esgaroth with no explanation.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2016, 9:13pm
Post #40 of 65
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I understand your point, Noria.
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I do agree with you to some extent, but it still especially bugs me when PJ violates his own, internal continuity--i.e., the lost day in Lake-town. I do wonder if he wanted to de-emphasize the calendar; after all, why would the Men of Lake-town note the precise date of Durin's Day (unless they have simply equated it with the first day of the Dwarves' New Year). But more to the point, I think that PJ wanted to increase the level of suspense and anticipation without regard for the contradiction he created by letting the line remain that puts Durin's Day two days away.
You are absolutely right, though, that there is some wiggle room when we are not aware of the exact date. Many events can take longer than they seem to--sometimes much longer.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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LSF
Mithlond
Sep 15 2016, 10:51pm
Post #41 of 65
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"but PJ would have had to throw the words "Weeks Later" up on the screen"
And if he's gonna do that in one instance, like travelling through Mirkwood, shouldn't he do that for all the other travelling parts in all 6 movies? How long did it take Frodo to get to Bree? For Aragorn and Co to chase down the Urak-hai who had kidnapped Merry and Pippin? How long did Merry and Pippin spend with Treebeard? How long to get from Edoras to Helm's Deep? From Rivendell to Misty Mountains?
Having a timestamp pop up every time any travelling or extended stay happened would be very distracting, especially since it really is not needed.
In regards to Thranduil's dungeon, as I've said before, I think the intent was that they only spent until the next morning there.
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DainPig
Mithlond
Sep 15 2016, 11:03pm
Post #42 of 65
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Bilbo's birthday is Sept 22, right? I read the book and I remember that in September 22 Bilbo was escaping the Woodland Realm (the whole barrel thing). In the films it seens the same thing, there's no time time lap of days between the barrel chase and the arrive at Laketown. Are you telling me they spend six days on Bard's boat? If I am wrong please correct me.
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
dainpigblog.blogspot.com
historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2016, 11:22pm
Post #43 of 65
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Bilbo's birthday is Sept 22, right? I read the book and I remember that in September 22 Bilbo was escaping the Woodland Realm (the whole barrel thing). In the films it seens the same thing, there's no time time lap of days between the barrel chase and the arrive at Laketown. Are you telling me they spend six days on Bard's boat? If I am wrong please correct me.
Nothing in the actual book reveals that the company arrives at Lake-town on Bilbo's birthday (we don't learn this until The Lord of the Rings) and I think that PJ just ignores it. This suggested timeline also places Durin's Day far too early; it should fall much closer to the start of winter (in the actual book, it fell on the first day of the last week of autumn, probably October 21 or 22, but did not occur on the same day each year).
But what I'm saying is that in DoS the company escapes from Thranduil's dungeons on the same day that they encounter Bard and reach Esgaroth, September 28 according to Bard's calendar.
According to Tolkien, the company escapes from the Elvenking and reaches the huts of the Raft-men (Raft-elves?) on September 21. They reach Lake-town just after sunset on the next day--September 22.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 15 2016, 11:25pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Sep 16 2016, 12:05am
Post #44 of 65
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But that could support Bilbo telling Fili that Thorin has "been down there for days" in BOT5A. OTOH, that also implies that Kili was at Bard's house for what, a week? Well, if we accept what seems to be the original intent in the films, the company arrives in Esgaroth on September 28 only to find that Durin's Day is two days away on September 30, according to the lunar-phase calendar in Bard's home. We never get a good look at the calendar, but we do see the Dwarves studying it when that line of dialogue is delivered. The night of that same day, Thorin leads a raid on the town's armory, but the company is caught when Kili inadvertently raises the alarm. The main body of the company leaves the next morning and, within the film-continuity, should arrive at the Lonely Mountain late the next day. By rights it should take twice as long, but PJ has already established ;his deadline. Smaug attacks late that night (or well before dawn of the next day). - Sept, 28: The Company of Thorin arrives at Esgaroth. - Sept. 29: The company leaves Esgaroth, leaving Fili, Kili Oin and Bofur behind. - Sept. 30: They arrive at Erebor on Durin's Day. Bilbo discovers the hidden stair, solves the puzzle of the Secret Door and enters the Mountain. - Oct. 1: Smaug attacks Lake-town before dawn. Fili, Kili, Oin and Bofur take a boat to leave for Erebor. Okay, Kili is still recovering from his injury and all four must already be exhausted. Plus none of them are likely to be skilled in handling boats. It probably takes them longer to reach the Mountain than did Thorin and the others--say three or four days. Hence, Thorin has been searching for the Arkenstone for days. I realize that this timing doesn't entirely jibe with the finished films because PJ seems to have dropped one day in Esgaroth with no explanation.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 16 2016, 12:11am
Post #45 of 65
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That might work better than what we hear in the film.
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Well that's only because of Balin saying "We'll have to, if we are to get there before sundown." We could also assume that Balin just left off the word "tomorrow," that would fit your timeline.
That's a bit of a cheat, but it is more reasonable then what we are actually presented with. It also works better with the arrival of the other four later if we think that it took them three or four days to reach the Mountain.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Omnigeek
Menegroth
Sep 16 2016, 5:53am
Post #46 of 65
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Other directors have managed it
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Other directors and movies have managed to convey the feeling of time's passage and without running a banner that says "three weeks later ...". I think PJ could have shown the dwarven misery in Mirkwood AND their long internment in Thranduil's dungeon in the time he wasted with the river battle or the orcs stealing into Laketown. Having said that, time compression is a difficult and common problem with movies and video, especially with today's directors who seem to feel like they have to fill every second of film with flashy, blinding action. The trip through Moria was also much quicker on film than it should have been but really wasn't something I held against PJ in either instance -- after all, the audience doesn't want to sit there counting sunrises either.
I actually wouldn't have minded a 9-hour version of "The Hobbit" if a little time was spent conveying the long weary trek of the starving dwarves through Mirkwood and their long imprisonment until Bilbo found the way out (and I'm not talking about a TON of time) and less time was spent action (and other) sequences that didn't exist in the book but I also would have been just as happy with a 4 hour version that cut out the extraneous material (like the whole Azog plotline and the Kili-Tauriel-Legolas triangle) and just focused on the essence of the story..
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 16 2016, 12:24pm
Post #47 of 65
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I'd never accept 'lazy and sloppy' as a fair description of the way...
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...this team works, not having seen all the behind-the-scenes documentaries. And remember they do employ someone working on the films whose whole remit is continuity. They record the arrangement of props in each setting, the amount of distress to every costume at every stage of the journey. They also look out for continuity errors and correct them - there are umpteen examples of that on the EEs.
So when there is a clear break in continuity - like the changing phase and position of the moon - I'd suggest that it's neither lazy nor sloppy, it's been allowed to happen for a reason. For them, something was more of a priority than continuity. In the case of the moon I'd say it's artistic. They wanted that shot of Smaug with the moon behind him - like a painter moving a tree to improve a landscape. I can understand your frustration with this and I'm not knocking you for feeling that way, just trying to suggest that there are other ways of looking at it.
A film adaptation has to tell the story for the whole audience, many of whom have never picked up the book and never will. I know you're absolutely right about the precise journey times and distances given in the books. I love the maps too, and there are lots of details I miss from the stories too. I'm just not sure how critical those things are to the general audience.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Sep 16 2016, 12:47pm
Post #48 of 65
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Oh, I write off the full moon (and its position) as dramatic license--though still dumb since PJ made a point of the crescent moon when Bilbo solved the puzzle of the Secret Door. The more serious continuity error, in my opinion, is the lost day in Lake-town. That's the one that really stands out to me.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 16 2016, 3:01pm
Post #49 of 65
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I'll come clean on this one....
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I'm afraid that for all the times I've watched I truly don't know what you mean by the lost day. They arrive... Bard gets them through the streets and into his house with more or less difficulty depending on the version you're watching. They dry off, talk about Girion and the dragon. There's a scene where Thorin demands the weapons; then we see Bard go away and get the things he's been hiding; Thorin isn't pleased. We see Bard go off leaving Bain in charge. The dwarves get past Bain and try to steal weapons from the armoury and are caught. They're brought before the Master; he decides - as he does in the book - to appear to support the dwarves, thinking they'll probably be roasted by Smaug. Then we see Bofur waking up and realising he's been left behind, the dwarves setting off, Kili being left behind and Fili opting to stay with him.
Where did they lose a day? I can't see any definiite indication of how long that whole sequence of events takes. As with any drama, I work on the assumption that time has probably elapsed between changes of scene. If it matters to the story I'll be told that it has and, if relevant, how much time. If nothing is specified I assume it doesn't matter to the story. In that particular case, Kili looks so much worse when Thorin makes him stay behind that he did earlier - in the armoury, say - that I take it that time has passed.
I'm open to explanation, if you want to explain.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Sep 16 2016, 7:12pm
Post #50 of 65
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It's the conversation after Bard leaves
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when Thorin, Balin, Fili & Kili are talking about Durin's Day. Let's see if I remember this right (I ought to, as many times as I've watched it):
Thorin: Tomorrow begins the last days of Autumn.
Balin: And Durin's Day falls the day after.
Then when they are boarding the boat:
Bilbo: You do know that we're one short - where's Bofur?
Thorin: If he's not here then we leave him behind.
Balin: We'll have to, if we're to make it to the door by nightfall.
Hence the missing day, unless you assume Balin meant by nightfall TOMORROW.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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