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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2013, 2:50pm
Post #26 of 81
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Writers' justification for Azog...
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Bringing a character back from the dead was COMPLETELY unnecessary
From a Philippa Boyens interview posted on the movieline.com website - "It's a great mystery story, but there's a big problem because there's no actual, physical enemy. And yet the dwarves had a very natural one and he was to be found. When Peter [Jackson] talks about taking this chance to tell more of the story, that was one of the pieces that we took — that and Moria. It's the story of the great hatred between the orcs and the dwarves, where it came from and what was informing it. And, also, I mean, Azog the Defiler. What a great name! You kind of can't beat that as a name."
From the TORn front page archives - Philippa: "I love Azog, Azog the Defiler. Because we just loved that name and he is a character that we just loved that back story and thought we can’t have him be dead, we’re going to keep him alive."
So it would seem that it was partially because they wanted a defined villain for the first film, and they felt it appropriate to take a 142-years-dead character and use him for the role, because he was an enemy of the Dwarves once upon a time. Apparently, they also just really liked the character's name...
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 24 2013, 2:55pm)
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architecthis
Menegroth
Oct 24 2013, 2:56pm
Post #27 of 81
(590 views)
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and I do not agree that it is any justification at all.
If they wanted to show Azog - and I completely understand the desire to do so because he is an interesting character - all they had to do was show him in flashbacks, etc. to build context with him. Since they thought that they needed a bad guy to chase the company throughout the first film Bolg would have sufficed there - but that was also unnecessary and the "pacing" problem was created in the first place by the production team changing the film from 2 installments to three.
There is no pacing problem - when you read the book do you feel like you'd rather be reading about a huge orc chasing the party on a giant warg? I suspect not.
The Azog/Bolg storyline from the book(s) is 100000 times more interesting than what they've come up with.
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2013, 3:03pm
Post #28 of 81
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...if you've read any of my posts on this topic, you'd know that I despise the decision to keep Azog alive.
Just figured I'd post those quotes to show how flimsy their justification is (IMO of course)...
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architecthis
Menegroth
Oct 24 2013, 3:08pm
Post #29 of 81
(577 views)
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I'm getting too used to everyone disagreeing with me! 
And you're right - the quote demonstrates just how ridiculous the process was...
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MatthewJer18
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2013, 3:18pm
Post #30 of 81
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I'm unapologetic in my love for Azog. Manu Bennett gives an incredible physical performance
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I think PJ did a very good job of establishing his connection to Thorin; my curiosity to see how that relationship develops is quite strong.
(This post was edited by MatthewJer18 on Oct 24 2013, 3:19pm)
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sauget.diblosio
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2013, 3:20pm
Post #31 of 81
(557 views)
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Also, that he not look and act like a "bad ass" WWE villain.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Mithlond
Oct 24 2013, 3:40pm
Post #32 of 81
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Just call the new bad guy "Bolg, son of Azog the Defiler" and you have an even cooler name ;-)
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This whole quote doesn't make any sense to me. Her points are (except for the ridiculous name thing):
1.) Where the great hatred between Orcs and Dwarves came from
--> If Azog would have died in that battle by the hand of Dain or if it's better for the story Thorin, Bolg would be (as he is in the book) the perfect enemy. Avenging the killing of your father is far more stronger hatred than avenging the loss of your left hand isn't it?
2.) There's no actual, physical enemy...
--> Just replace all (except the Azanulbizar scene) Azog appearances with Bolg and the change from the source material wouldn't be that heavy.
3.) What a great name...
--> Just call Bolg "Bolg, son of Azog the Defiler" and you've got the same name in your movie ;-)
BUT of course we haven't seen DOS and TABA yet but for the moment I would say: Bolg would have been the better villain.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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RosieLass
Doriath
Oct 24 2013, 4:00pm
Post #33 of 81
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Yours is where Tauriel comes in.
Other (myself included) have drawn the line much closer to the source material.
And that's okay. There is room for everyone's opinion, as long as we all respect the right of others to have opinions that are different than ours.
"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Oct 24 2013, 4:04pm
Post #34 of 81
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Everyone is welcome to their opinion. (It won't change mine.)
Yours is where Tauriel comes in.
Other (myself included) have drawn the line much closer to the source material.
And that's okay. There is room for everyone's opinion, as long as we all respect the right of others to have opinions that are different than ours.
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Macfeast
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2013, 5:06pm
Post #35 of 81
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Screen time is a poor indicator of how much attention it is fair that we pay something in a film. EE SPOILERS!
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A lot can be accomplished during however many minutes Azog is present. For the sake of comparison:
- Bilbo and Bofur's exchange in the Misty Mountains takes roughly one minute and twenty seconds, but carries a great impact.
- Thorin and Balin's private conversation at Bag End, which tells us a lot about both Thorin and Balin, clocks in at roughly one and a half minute.
- "Far over the Misty Mountains cold"? Again, roughly one and a half minute. One of the most powerful moments of the film, imo.
Let's say that Azog only takes up 5-10 minutes of screentime (I don't have an exact number, I'm afraid). How many of those minutes could have gone to scenes that were instead pushed to the extended edition, like the scene with Bilbo walking through, and falling in love with Rivendell, or the scene where Elrond invites Bilbo to stay in Rivendell (both of which are relevant to Bilbo's character arc)?
Some might argue that the film is better for the villainous presence Azog brings, which is a fair point, and I should note that I'm not actually passing judgement upon Azog's inclusion right now. I'm just noting that a minutes worth of screen time is never "only a minute", that Azog's total screen time is not "very little screen time". The actual number of minutes, sure, that may be a relatively low number. The potential for cinematic impact? Goes beyond the number of minutes.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Oct 24 2013, 5:11pm)
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2013, 9:48pm
Post #36 of 81
(479 views)
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It's the aging that bothers me...
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He goes from looking like a 16 year old boy in LOTRs to looking like he's in his mid 30's! Unlike Elrond who looked pretty much the same.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 24 2013, 10:29pm
Post #37 of 81
(453 views)
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Rant ENTIRELY justified!! I don't mind Elves in Laketown, though I would MUCH
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rather they were there in a commerce and routine interaction capacity than coming in battle mode. I am leery of Barrels out of Bond like you, but. meh. It doesn't hurt things other than being a bit much and some of the CG being a little obvious.
Yet when massive changes are made to the lore... its one thing for some to say, "well this change didn't bother me," but the suggestion of an inability to understand how anyone could be bothered to changes that turn the actual history of The Third Age upside down and backwards? I don't know. I don't know if some people have not read the source material or if some folks are so loyal to PJ that they just don't care.
I was excited to see this next film and I still am but between Azog, Beorn's design, Tauriel and other elves in Laketown, the action oriented Barrels out Bond sequence, all the extra CGI, so many (poor) design decisions and so many changes to the source material I am extremely worried.
Sorry rant over.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 24 2013, 10:37pm
Post #38 of 81
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Exactly. Legolas is good because, its a draw for Rings fans AND, more importantly, he was alive and living in Mirkwood.
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Tolkien, had he seen forward in time, would likely have also at least mentioned him in an aside. He is a Prince of The Greenwood Elves. No reconstruction is needed to place him there, and expanding his role doesn't require directly defying any of the existing events.
Azog was as dead as hundred year old horse manuer. What is more, as you know, altering the events of his death alters the ENTIRE history of the Dwarf/Orc war. Azog swore to wipe out the line of Durin, huh? Well A) Balrog still has his ass beat there, even without the extra credit of having slain Durin himself. Yet, B) it was Thrain and all the dwarves of The Seven Houses who swore to exterminate Azog, and the sacked nearly all the goblin cities of the North in the process, hunting him all the way.  Not having a go at you, I just find it fascinating, all the different criteria and reasons people have for deeming things "acceptable" in the adaptations. Personally, I feel that keeping Azog alive is WAY more of a deviation than including Legolas. To me it makes perfect sense that we would encounter Thranduil's son at some point either during the "stay" in Mirkwood, or at the Bo5A. Azog, on the other hand, should have been killed 142 years before the story even started. Just knowing that about Azog really pulls me out of the film. Every time I see him onscreen, all I can think is "You're DEAD!!! Go away already!!!"
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Oct 24 2013, 10:38pm)
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sycorax82
Nargothrond
Oct 24 2013, 11:09pm
Post #39 of 81
(438 views)
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Thorin has to be the one to kill Azog, no question
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After the Out of the Frying Pan... confrontation, it would feel false not to have Thorin win the day. Of course, then he will be mortally wounded, most likely by Bolg. The other option is for Azog to cause the injuries that kill him and he doesn't even face Bolg.
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 24 2013, 11:54pm
Post #40 of 81
(439 views)
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I think it would be cliched and predictable to have Thorin kill Azog. Plus Thorin never gets any sort of payoff in the books, so I don't see why he needs one in the film so badly.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 25 2013, 12:18am
Post #41 of 81
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Ding! Ding! Dingadinglinging!Samalcis81 gets the circle and the square.
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Lurtz is the strawman of the day. "Lurtz was one dimensional," So what? In these films, even Saruman is rather one dimensional, as compared to the nuanced and somewhat tragic figure he is when you read the entirety of the books. Sauron is represented as one-dimensional. The Elves feeliings about the ring and its fate is one dimensional. A lot of dimension was cast aside in the translation.
The point, as you say, is not that Lurtz is more nuanced than Smeagol, he isn't. It is that he does not represent a contradiction of any sort. He just puts a name to a figure in an established event. Boromir was slain by orcs. In the movies, one of the orcs had a name and was worthy of having James Brown's "superbad" played as his themesong. The most contradictory thing about Lurtz was the bullmanuer notion that he was grown from the mud.
Azog... his survival turns an entire historical chapter at wrong angles. I actually would preffer it if he was just a damned zombie. At least then the history wouldn't have had to have been changed, not that I like that notion of him either.
AND GREAT ERU YES about the last part! WHY in the hell do we have to suffer him for more than one film? Lurtz was born, grew up and died all in the course of the latter two-thirds of Fellowship. Gothmog was hello and goodbye under soap bubbles in the same span. WHY has Azog been elevated to Nazgul level screentime? this cretin is going to end up with more air time than Saruman, Sauron or Smaug if it keeps on like this. ...but none of them have Azog's rippling biceps and totally bad-ass 'tude!!! Anyway, one thing I don't get is why, everytime a discussion about Azog pops up, someone has to bring up Lurtz as if he somehow justifies Azog's presence. Both Lurtz and Azog are one-dimensional lunatics, it's true, but Lurtz was not a contradiction, while Azog is the mother of contradictions. And Lurtz knew better than to wear out his welcome 
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Oct 25 2013, 12:22am)
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 25 2013, 12:26am
Post #42 of 81
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I don't think An Unexpected was mediocre. I thought it was a great, though flawed movie
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(and all of them have had flaws). But some of the choices they made were entirely uncalled for and damaged more than they developed.
And I entirely agree with you. Movies based on novels are usually made because the novels are good or popular. They cannot be expected to cling to every minor detail or work in every line of dialogue, but they should not deviate wildly from the source, which they are SUPPOSED to be representing, unless all other options would prove highly complicated and impractical. Yes the book and movies are separate, but that does not mean the director can do anything he wants and we should all just say, "well the movies and books are separate and need to be looked at separately therefore this change or that change should not bother us".
I guess I'm a little tired of that argument. The LOTR were also a separate entity and they worked perfectly well.
In my opinion the reviews speak for the movie quite well - AUJ was mediocre and I am worried DOS will also be mediocre at best.
Bringing a character back from the dead was COMPLETELY unnecessary and so is bird poop on someone's face.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 25 2013, 12:34am
Post #43 of 81
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This made me so angry when I saw it. I am still hostile re-reading it. I am not going to
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say that everyone who ascribes misogony as the motivation for some people's irritation with Phillipa is always wrong. Some people are probably giving her grief based on gender bias. HOWEVER, the majority of the vexation with her, is over comments like this. This is an OUTRAGEOUS comment. Bolg could have done EVERYTHING Azog is described as doing here, accept that his name is different. Ya know what, if they liked the name Azog so much, why didn't they just swap the damned names and leave the history in tact. Make Bolg the dead father and Azog the avenging son, and let it go at that. "Oooo, Azog is so badass!" You know what was badass? The dwarves declaring a war of vengeance on the orcs that cut a streak of ruin from Gundabad to Gladden. A thousand enraged dwarves chanting the name of Azog was badass. Azog's battle with Nain was badass. Dain overtaking and slaying Azog was badass (and still would have been badass if Thorin had done it). The Balrog standing near the gate and terrifying the straight piss out of the slayer of Azog, and Dain's subsequent words to Thrain, ALL BADASS?! But what's in a name? Bringing a character back from the dead was COMPLETELY unnecessary From a Philippa Boyens interview posted on the movieline.com website - "It's a great mystery story, but there's a big problem because there's no actual, physical enemy. And yet the dwarves had a very natural one and he was to be found. When Peter [Jackson] talks about taking this chance to tell more of the story, that was one of the pieces that we took — that and Moria. It's the story of the great hatred between the orcs and the dwarves, where it came from and what was informing it. And, also, I mean, Azog the Defiler. What a great name! You kind of can't beat that as a name."
From the TORn front page archives - Philippa: "I love Azog, Azog the Defiler. Because we just loved that name and he is a character that we just loved that back story and thought we can’t have him be dead, we’re going to keep him alive." So it would seem that it was partially because they wanted a defined villain for the first film, and they felt it appropriate to take a 142-years-dead character and use him for the role, because he was an enemy of the Dwarves once upon a time. Apparently, they also just really liked the character's name...
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2013, 12:51am
Post #44 of 81
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I mostly enjoyed AUJ, and even felt fine about some of the minor changes. There was also some stuff I didn't really care for, but didn't find myself dwelling on it.
But then there was what I consider the bane of AUJ - Azog.
As you said, an adaptation of a story shouldn't veer off-course to the point that the main focus is put on a sub-plot that didn't even exist in the original story. At times, Thorin's beef with Azog seemed like the main focus of AUJ.
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Ziggy Stardust
Mithlond
Oct 25 2013, 1:02am
Post #45 of 81
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He was created by Saruman as a literal killing machine. That was his drive and aim. That was like his only reason for living. That's why he was one dimensional, he was basically a drone, a puppet who followed orders.
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Ziggy Stardust
Mithlond
Oct 25 2013, 1:05am
Post #46 of 81
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No, the hate for Azog has to do with A) his character design and B) his lack of epicness while fighting Thorin in the end of AUJ
Since Azog was a character in The Hobbit, who was just deceased before the beginning of the novel, it wasn't too far-fetched to have him be the villain. (I still think it would make more sense for it to have been Bolg though).
Anyway, those are my problems with Azog: his character design and lack of epicness. I mean, he looks like a WoW character. Besides that I loved AUJ overall.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Oct 25 2013, 1:29am
Post #47 of 81
(397 views)
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Is this about the dwarves "beef" with Azog or the one they have with Smaug! The dwarves settled the Azog problem at Azanulbizar. He is EVERYWHERE?! They are risking making him more of the villain than Smaug or Sauron, and that is very bad. He already seems nearly as formidable as the Witch-King. For God's sake, I hope they don't put him near on par with the Balrog and make out like he is a real threat to Gandalf or Radagast in Dol Guldur. Leave that to Sauron and The Nine, I hope. I don't know if it would be more offensive as an oversighted accident or as as an intended goal. I mostly enjoyed AUJ, and even felt fine about some of the minor changes. There was also some stuff I didn't really care for, but didn't find myself dwelling on it.
But then there was what I consider the bane of AUJ - Azog.
As you said, an adaptation of a story shouldn't veer off-course to the point that the main focus is put on a sub-plot that didn't even exist in the original story. At times, Thorin's beef with Azog seemed like the main focus of AUJ.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Oct 25 2013, 1:45am
Post #48 of 81
(394 views)
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i was not saying i didn't find Lurtz a good villain, i did but he was rather one dimensional compared to Azog but yes like you pointed out he was created to be a killing machine. Now, the real question....who would win in a one on one fight...Lurtz or Azog?? my money would be on Azog.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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ecthelionsbeard
Menegroth
Oct 25 2013, 3:08am
Post #49 of 81
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was a mediocre film. It was a solid effort. It did not achieve the greatness of any three of the lord of the rings films but it was an honest 8/10 movie... a good movie. What I didn't like about it was how it just sorta ended. I wanted to continue the adventure so that was quite off putting and some of the CGI was questionable. Further, the troll shaws and bagend drug a bit but other than those gripes.. it was quite a lovely film.
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ecthelionsbeard
Menegroth
Oct 25 2013, 3:11am
Post #50 of 81
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Azog is on screen for around 5 minutes...
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and people man about how he really hurt the film.....
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