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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Dec 21 2015, 4:42pm
Post #1 of 24
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If Thorin had lived, would he have gotten sick again?
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Just a theoretical question concerning addiction. It's a little personal for me - my older sister has had lifetime addiction issues, and now one of my friends has decided to drink himself to death. I know that in normal treatment, the addictive substance has to be completely removed from the addict's life. But if Thorin is addicted to the gold, what would he do? Yes his head was cleared in that one scene,
but could he relapse? I wonder if he'd be strong enough to resist it, and if so how would he do it? In one of my fanfics I wrote that he confined himself to the tallest tower in Erebor, and had all the gold moved to the lowest vaults, but would that be enough? Maybe he'd have to exile himself from Erebor completely, and leave Fili in charge. Crazy as I am about Thorin   maybe it would be better for him to die a hero than live and fall back into the dragon-sickness. I'd hate for my beloved King Under the Mountain to turn out like Gollum, ewwww!!! What does anyone else think?
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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LSF
Mithlond
Dec 21 2015, 4:49pm
Post #2 of 24
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I always thought that was a possibility, and not just because I don't really care for or like Thorin as a person 
This potential situation also opens up possible trust issues between him and the Company, and maybe even the dwarves who come to resettle Erebor, if he were to remain king. It is an interesting scenario.
My ideal ending always has Fili becoming King, whether because Thorin still dies, or he leaves/gets exiled because of something he did under dragon-sickness.
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Ossiriand
Dec 21 2015, 5:00pm
Post #3 of 24
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It appears that Thorin is cured rather quickly but it seems like a sickness that has the power to creep back again. And at what point is the gold no longer "cursed? So if there are lapses back into madness, he might do the right thing and leave (I think he would do what is in the best interest of his people) and give the crown to Fili. It's kind of tragic if he finally reclaims his kingdom but is no longer fit to rule it, not even able to reside there. The only silver lining for him would be that he'd be leaving it in very good hands.
Justice for Fili
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Milieuterrien
Nargothrond
Dec 21 2015, 5:11pm
Post #4 of 24
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Thorin has a shifting-type personae
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All along the trilogy he changes his mind, out of proudness, circumstances, personal hate of the elves, suspicion about the Arkenstone etc.
From the very beginning what he calls for is loyalty, which means total acceptance of his decisions and reversals.
I have never been sure it was so necessary an idea to carry in this story 'dragon sickness'.
I would have felt comfortable if Thorin had acted like he did out of his usual nature... like it happened in the book.
...Even if it included throwing Bilbo over the rampart before apologizing for that when agony comes.
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Sarahbor
Menegroth
Dec 21 2015, 5:32pm
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Tolkien himself came up with the term "dragon-sickness," rather than it being made up for the films. I heard it mentioned in a review of AUJ, which was of course 2 years before BOFA came out. It's a greedy, maddening desire for gold that mirrors that of a dragon's, and its effects are seen most in those who are already greedy, which is why some (like Bilbo) are less prone to it. Since it came from the dragon brooding on the gold, it's not clear how long after the dragon's death it's effects would disappear (since Thorin was still suffering it after Smaug's death), but since it requires the greedy nature of the sufferer in order to take hold, that kind of implies one has the free will to resist or give in to it, rather than it ensnaring someone unaware and turning them into a zombie. Since Thorin repented of his actions and would have presumably given Bard & Co their gold if he'd lived, he's made the choice to renounce his greed and should therefore be free of the sickness for as long he choses to do so. Whether or not he would become greedy again is entirely up to him.
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
(This post was edited by Sarahbor on Dec 21 2015, 5:33pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 21 2015, 6:13pm
Post #6 of 24
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Tolkien himself came up with the term "dragon-sickness," rather than it being made up for the films.
That is correct. Tolkien first uses the term in reference to the Master of Lake-town (if I remember correctly) but it can be applied to Thorin and others as well. I think that if Thorin had lived then he would have been fine for a while. However, he might have had to be careful over time to avoid relapsing. I'm not sure, though, that this is how Tolkien would have dealt with it. Having conquered his baser self, Thorin might have continued to resist the lure of the gold just fine.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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dormouse
Gondolin
Dec 21 2015, 6:37pm
Post #7 of 24
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I reckon he would always have been vulnerable.....
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..but that said, if we take the story of the battle as written but just have Beorn lift a badly wounded but living Thorin out of the fighting, the circumstances would have been so different. At the battle's end, having finally understood all the things he says to Bilbo, he would surely have divided up the treasure as Dain does, so he wouldn't have presided over the whole hoard any more. He would also have proved himself capable of giving away some of the treasure freely.
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Milieuterrien
Nargothrond
Dec 21 2015, 7:20pm
Post #8 of 24
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Thorin (in the movie) was Dragon-sick appeared to happen when he grinched about Bard the 'Dragon-slayer", as if Bard had hurt somebody of his own kin instead of killing a common enemy.
Bard was shocked hearing that, and I was too, because both of we expected some gratefulness, but it's a very smart move by PJ : we clearly see that Thorin is somewhat out of his mind.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Dec 21 2015, 8:43pm
Post #9 of 24
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There would be somewhat less treasure, between paying Bard for the Arkenstone & giving a share to Dain. But I think there would still be enough that its presence could cause problems for Thorin. I guess I'm thinking if someone is trying to quit smoking, but his/her spouse is still smoking, it would make it that much harder because the cigarettes are there, the smell is there, etc. But I suppose it could be done, maybe.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Elarie
Hithlum
Dec 21 2015, 8:48pm
Post #10 of 24
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but that's because I've never been able to think of his "dragon sickness" as an addiction. I know that Richard Armitage talked about researching addiction when he was preparing for the role, but in my mind I could never get away from the book version which was more about greed and the innate dwarven lust for gold. A person can make a conscious decision not to give in to greed and a king can make a conscious decision to build alliances and do what is best for his people, so I tend to think that once Thorin broke away from the gold lust, he wouldn't have gone down that path again. But of course, I never ever want to think of Thorin as anything but spectacular and majestic, so I'm just a teeny bit biased. 
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
Dec 21 2015, 9:22pm
Post #11 of 24
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He trascended that
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to The Battle for the Fifth Trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
There and Back Again Traveller
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Avandel
Gondolin
Dec 21 2015, 9:27pm
Post #12 of 24
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*Grins* I'd make a "happy" ending out of it
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Which I wish PJ had done, anyway *ducks*. I wish he had killed off Tauriel instead because, I think that would have given more weight to Legolas leaving, been really poignant if she died protecting dwarves - either Kili or just some nameless dwarf - and even better if Thranduil and Legolas see her doing it - giving some backbone IMO to Thranduil's comment "are you willing to die for it?" Besides, I can see that elves may or may not REALLY die, Tauriel fades into starlight but she is also forever. (Although later I am going to have to explain to myself how elves, among others, seem to be trapped forever in the Dead Marshes and are "not nice".... )
And then Thorin hands over Erebor to Dain, taking Kili and Fili back to the Blue Mountains, because he knows he will always be privy to dragon sickness and fears for Fili and Kil as well "a strain of madness runs in that family" and anyway has learned that his "home" in the form of his nephews has been with him all along, that a kingdom is its people and he's done that. As opposed to having a theater full of depressed people.
Back in the *real world* - IMO no. For me a real point was made with the cacophony of voices that Thorin was hearing (beautiful work from the sound guys) and by RA himself and the subsequent scene - all the bling stripped off - IMO Thorin seems "softer" but "more sure" at the same time (amazing work by RA). Like metal that's been folded into the best steel.
Or to put it another way - true enough, IMO if compared to modern chemicals, I would imagine Thorin might always be privy to dragon sickness from a "physical standpoint", but assuming your movie image depicts the kind of "epiphany" successfully recovering addicts seem to have (a comment I read once from an addict in successful recovery was "I don't have time for that stuff" e.g. life was too full being healthy and doing other things besides drinking) that this Thorin, having "walked through the fire", isn't the same Thorin that we knew, anyway.
I think he finally understands when Gandalf said "you are neither of them" [Thror and Thrain]. As, I think, this scene of Thorin with Orcrist is more than looking after a fallen troll-ogre - it's a salute to the elf that saved his life, the only way Thorin can considering the situation - and I think Thorin knows who this elf is. The original, suspicious Thorin may not have behaved like this - maybe just given Legolas a disbelieving/grudging look of sorts. I think THIS Thorin might even have asked Gandalf for help, later, re the matter of dragon sickness. At least asked. And also, possibly, a helpful relationship with Bard may have formed; in that I don't think Thorin ever despised Bard, per se. And Bard seems to be full of practical common sense, and he's right on Thorin's doorstep now.
I think Thorin is more free, mentally, now than he has ever been.
And, too, I think we see that when Thorin realizes they are in a trap and Dwalin wants to carry on. Plus, his interaction with Bilbo.
I think a lot of forgiveness and love is going on when Bilbo warns Thorin, but there's hardly time to discuss it.
Then, at the last (I can't stand it ) Thorin's dying, knows Fili is gone and I suspect Kili, and he still is worrying about his unlikely friend.
E.g., not the same Thorin. What a waste. I can't wait for the sequel that fixes this travesty. 
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Dec 21 2015, 10:43pm
Post #13 of 24
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GREAT little pic you found there - yes, our beloved Thorin DESERVES a happy ending, after all he's been through, darnit! And maybe on his way back to the Blue Mountains he could take a detour in the USA and say "hello" to all his adoring fans - yes, that's a great sequel. Call for a reboot! Call for the Alt-ending! Call the fangirls!
Oh, HECK YEAH!!!
The rabid fanbase must be satisfied - the show MUST go on (and on, and on, and on ) - see you at the River
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 21 2015, 10:46pm
Post #14 of 24
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Not if he had learned to be a good king.
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A good king bestows his gold on his subjects. A bad king hoards it.
I burn my enemies' tents. I take away their flocks and herds. The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor! Because *I* am a river to my people!
-Auda abu Tayi (Lawrence of Arabia (1962))
Heremod was different,
the way he behaved to Ecgwala's sons.
His rise in the world brought little joy
to the Danish people, only death and destruction.
…
But a change happened,
he grew bloodthirsty, gave no more rings
to honour the Danes. He suffered in the end
for having plagued his people for so long:
his life lost happiness.
…
His old possessions seem paltry to him now.
He covets and resents; dishonors custom
and bestows no gold…
…
Then finally the end arrives
when the body he was lent collapses and falls
prey to its death; ancestral possessions
and the goods he hoarded are inherited by another
who lets them go with a liberal hand.
-Beowulf
2870-2953 Fengel. He was the third son and fourth child of Folcwine. He is not
remembered with praise. He was greedy of food and of gold, and at strife with his
marshals, and with his children.
-Return of the King, Appendix A, The House of Eorl
There was an old king on a high throne:
his white beard lay on knees of bone;
his mouth savoured neither meat nor drink,
nor his ears song; he could only think
of his huge chest with carven lid
where pale gems and gold lay hid
in secret treasury in the dark ground;
its strong doors were iron-bound.
The swords of his thanes were dull with rust,
his glory fallen, his rule unjust,
his halls hollow, and his bowers cold,
but king he was of elvish gold.
He heard not the horns in the mountain-pass,
he smelt not the blood on the trodden grass,
but his halls were burned, his kingdom lost;
in a cold pit his bones were tossed.
-From The Hoard, by JRR Tolkien
TL;DR: Greed is bad, especially in a king.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Dec 22 2015, 12:04am
Post #15 of 24
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The very moment when Thorin (in the movie) was Dragon-sick appeared to happen when he grinched about Bard the 'Dragon-slayer", as if Bard had hurt somebody of his own kin instead of killing a common enemy.
Bilbo realized that something was wrong before Fili, Kili, Oin and Bofur reached Erebor. I would say that the very first sign of Thorin's dragon-sickness was his confrontation with Bilbo right after the Hobbit's conversation with Smaug.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Sarahbor
Menegroth
Dec 22 2015, 1:14am
Post #16 of 24
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I would think he'd remember what happened *last* time he fell to dragon-sickness, i.e. almost throwing Bilbo off the wall, doubting his own kin, and jeopardizing his own honor, and would want to avoid similar grief. That and he'd remember his repeated assertion that he is not his grandfather.
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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Milieuterrien
Nargothrond
Dec 22 2015, 2:36am
Post #17 of 24
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Er.. I meant : "the very BEST moment for me".
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Of course Thorin got dragon-sick before,
according to the others, and especially Balin.
But this one I don't remember reading it in the Book : it's pure PJ vice.
And with this one I'm sure Bard could only react by some "WTF with that guy ? How dare he !  "
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moreorless
Mithlond
Dec 22 2015, 8:11am
Post #18 of 24
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I think Jackson shifted the focus away from shear greed/dragon sickness...
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People have commented that in Jacksons film its notable that its Thorin alone who is seriously effected by the Dragon Sickness where as in the book it seems to effect the dwarves as a whole more.
I would say the reason for this is that whilst yes its still a factor in his version of the story theres more focus on the other flaws or issues Thorin has besides shear greed, indeed I think the dwarves as a whole are shown to be a good deal less greedy.
The point for me is that Thorin falls victim to the sickness because he's carrying the pride and weight of expectation of being the heir to Erebor as well as the grudges against those he believes have wronged him. I think you see it with Thror as well that its not just the gold but his pride that really causes the sickness with Smaug arguably being the sickness given form.
What I think you see at the end of the film is Thorin casting aside his grudges and looking for the greater good plus you could argue also casting aside his pride and the weight of expectation on him as the heir.
You could say I spose that if Thorin had just killed Azog in the ice and lived that shifted wouldn't have been as complete since I think the point there is that he specifically lets Azog fatally injure him in order to land his own killing blow for the greater good.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Dec 22 2015, 8:12am)
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Avandel
Gondolin
Dec 22 2015, 5:16pm
Post #19 of 24
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*Laughs* - after all, it IS the holiday season
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And a line from Terry Pratchett's book "Hogfather" (who himself is probably making the angels laugh and cry *sigh*) comes to mind:
"There's no better present than a future"...
And too, happily, since RA at least has been spending SOME time in the U.S. - why, we here just NEVER KNOW if we will run into Thorin
getting a pack of Slim Jims and an icy drink at the local Wawa .
LOL, see you at the River.
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Ilmatar
Nargothrond
Dec 23 2015, 2:32pm
Post #20 of 24
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As for the actual topic, I think that Thorin had been through a life-altering revelation and would probably had resisted the temptation for the rest of his days, had he lived -
- which he must have done, most likely with his nephews - for what else could explain the surprising emergence of the Durin gift wrap papers in stores?  (Poor photo quality
due to a relatively old phone.) I was not aware of the artistic tendencies nor the yuletide holiday spirit of the design line of Durin but will happily wrap some presents in these
papers just in time for tomorrow (as here, unlike in most other countries, the main celebration is held on Christmas Eve). Although some swirls and ornaments suspiciously look
a little more elvish to me than the solid and angular decorative motifs that are traditionally associated with dwarves - maybe Kíli has let his experiences of cultural exchange come
through with this particular paper.
 
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Kim
Doriath
Dec 24 2015, 6:00am
Post #21 of 24
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Nice find on that wrapping paper!
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Although I too find it suspiciously elf-like in it's design. But, your theory about Kili and cultural exchange seems plausible, as well as the explanation for the emergence itself.
But, to answer the OP, I think Thorin would have resisted the temptation, which would have been helped by giving away a lot of the treasure, thus lessening it's potential hold over him.
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Elarie
Hithlum
Dec 24 2015, 12:59pm
Post #22 of 24
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I can see the dwarves are keeping Santa's elves very busy this year. No doubt on purpose, just to annoy them
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Sarahbor
Menegroth
Dec 24 2015, 6:01pm
Post #23 of 24
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Great cartoon, and I especially like Bifur's wish list
Likewise, I don't think Thorin would have gotten sick again. He overcame his sickness, and would remember all the strife it caused and resist further temptation.
Hobbit/LOTR cartoons & humor: http://www.sarahbor.com/
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StingingFly
Menegroth
Dec 24 2015, 7:44pm
Post #24 of 24
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...I believe he would have had a relapse or two. Nothing full blown, but there was a lot of baggage for him to overcome and something would have triggered it again. His family's ancestral claim to the treasure hoard, not to mention genetic predisposition to 'madness', also Thorin's lingering mistrust of elves, men and pretty much everything non-dwarvish. Thorin achieved his destiny of reclaiming Erebor and uniting the dwarves. He wasn't fated (or best equipped) to rule over it.
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