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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 26 2012, 5:47pm
Post #26 of 58
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I always thought that the Wargs should look like prehistoric 'dire-wolves'
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Wargs should be larger and more vicious-looking than modern wolves, but should still be recognizable as wolves. That is what I would like to see in the Wargs here.
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
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Lacrimae Rerum
Hithlum
May 26 2012, 5:52pm
Post #27 of 58
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Oh it's often a safe bet I'm joking.
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And it's only a very gentle tease. I think fantasy worlds have to make sense on their own terms but it just makes me chuckle when we start wondering if le chatelier's principle still applies or some such. In a world where new species can be twisted out of old ones by evil spirit-gods I'm not entirely sure the intricacies of species migration and evolution come into play in quite they same way!
LR
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FoundEntwife
Ossiriand
May 26 2012, 9:32pm
Post #28 of 58
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wolves are beautiful animals but I've always imagined the wargs to be demon wolves. Misshaped or warped in attitude and in how they look. I can imagine them being anything but beautiful. Although something can be beautiful and terrifying in the same instance.
Lions, or tigers, for instance. And if they are all snarling teeth and growling they can go from beautiful to ugly rather quickly.
This tale grew in the telling. . .
http://pencilword.blogspot.com
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
May 26 2012, 10:05pm
Post #29 of 58
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That is a physical limit ;-) /
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
May 26 2012, 10:09pm
Post #30 of 58
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You nearly had me convinced ;-) /
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 27 2012, 5:50am
Post #31 of 58
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Think Gmork. Wolves can look frightful, when they snarl. But they generally are not snarling
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unless given good cause. But, people have been making depictions of wolves look horrifying for years just by forrowing the brows, lengthening the fangs, etc. Do those things, and fill the wolf's eyes with bright, psychotic malice, and you have a horror. It is why I mentioned Gmork. We have doubtless both seen werewolves and monster wolves who were dreadful to behold. Hyena don't look particularly frightening either. They actually look rather retarded until they start killing things. The wargs were wolf-like monsters, not hyena like monsters, and I think they would have been better portrayed if Peter had taken the features of a wolf and accentuated/hyperbolized the frightening aspects, rather tha to simply go with the features of a hyena.
Part of the terror of such beasts, as with many members of the cat family, are the eyes. It is the bright, gleaming eyes, cunning and intelligent, and potentially cruel, that really aid in inspiring fear. Hyena don't have them. Deadly as they are, a hyena looks rather stupid, right up until the moment it starts breaking bones. They are deadly. . . but sometimes they just look dumb. Wolves do NOT look dumb. And a malicious wolf, with the malice made evident as a CGI artist, puppet maker, and visual artist all can do, can be a terror. Even many werewolf depictions, despite being obviously mergings of human and wolf features, manage to look more lupine than the LOTR movie wargs.
http://imageshack.us/...35/gmork9fe.jpg/sr=1
http://fc03.deviantart.net/...mork_by_Glad_Sad.jpg
http://blackwolfblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/gmork-10.jpg
Even with the inaccuracies in the ear size and placement, and some of the facial structure this http://www.horrorsniped.com/...5012508156743680.jpg
still looks far more like a recognizable wolf creature than does this
http://images.wikia.com/...images/3/37/Warg.jpg
The second, which is a TTT movie warg, doesn't look remotely lupine, exaggerated, evil, hyperolized in horror or otherwise. It looks like someone crossbred a hyena with a pig from hell.
... is that they're very beautiful creatures and not scary - except when snarling (or , I suppose, if you were alone in the wild late at night and happened to come across a hungry one). I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere that they tried using real wolves for the first Narnia film and gave up on them because they looked too 'doggy' - had to create something more vicious-looking in the computer. The film of 'The Wolves of Willoughby Chase' had things that looked like shaggy hearthrugs on legs.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Steven Van der Berg
Ossiriand
May 27 2012, 5:50am
Post #32 of 58
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I think the Wargs were one of the effects actually farmed out to other studios - I think Rhythm and Hues in this case, on relatively short notice. So any take on them would likely be a new design creation by nature. :)
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 27 2012, 3:08pm
Post #33 of 58
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I though you ment something like
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a mountain range keeping the two populations apart. Sloppy reading on my part, then.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
May 27 2012, 3:09pm
Post #34 of 58
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I'm hoping for a redesign of the Wargs...
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not a total redesign but just a few tweaks to make them a bit more wolf like.
Keep the same body design but change the snout and ears, they could be stretched out a bit, a longer snout and ears would make them look more wolf-like, a longer bushier tail would help too. They could always show one or 2 of the Hyena type wargs and just play off the fact there are different breeds of wargs just like horses and ponies are different or the same animals from different regions are similar but different
Another thing I think they should do, is put some regular size wolves into the mix. Give the Wargs some scale as well as show some diversity then you can see the difference between wargs and wolves plus the book says they are both there anyways
(This post was edited by sinister71 on May 27 2012, 3:12pm)
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 27 2012, 3:10pm
Post #35 of 58
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I'm just tempted to fall into the same trap JRRT himself was tempted by: to take his subcreation too seriously and realistically. I know it doesn't work that way.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
(This post was edited by Faenoriel on May 27 2012, 3:10pm)
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
May 27 2012, 4:51pm
Post #36 of 58
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Sloppy post, not your fault!
I would've put climate under physical barrier and mountain under geographical barrier. 
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FoundEntwife
Ossiriand
May 27 2012, 6:19pm
Post #37 of 58
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Deadly as they are, a hyena looks rather stupid, right up until the moment it starts breaking bones. They are deadly. . . but sometimes they just look dumb. Wolves do NOT look dumb. And a malicious wolf, with the malice made evident as a CGI artist, puppet maker, and visual artist all can do, can be a terror. Even many werewolf depictions, despite being obviously mergings of human and wolf features, manage to look more lupine than the LOTR movie wargs. http://imageshack.us/...35/gmork9fe.jpg/sr=1 http://fc03.deviantart.net/...mork_by_Glad_Sad.jpg http://blackwolfblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/gmork-10.jpg Even with the inaccuracies in the ear size and placement, and some of the facial structure this http://www.horrorsniped.com/...5012508156743680.jpg still looks far more like a recognizable wolf creature than does this http://images.wikia.com/...images/3/37/Warg.jpg The second, which is a TTT movie warg, doesn't look remotely lupine, exaggerated, evil, hyperolized in horror or otherwise. It looks like someone crossbred a hyena with a pig from hell. ... is that they're very beautiful creatures and not scary - except when snarling (or , I suppose, if you were alone in the wild late at night and happened to come across a hungry one). I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere that they tried using real wolves for the first Narnia film and gave up on them because they looked too 'doggy' - had to create something more vicious-looking in the computer. The film of 'The Wolves of Willoughby Chase' had things that looked like shaggy hearthrugs on legs.
I think you've got it right here. Here's to hoping for a bit of tweaking to make them more wolf-like this time around.
This tale grew in the telling. . .
http://pencilword.blogspot.com
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 28 2012, 12:31am
Post #38 of 58
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My problem isn't what did or didn't exist in prehistory.
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My problem is that Tolkien spoke of giant, wicked, wolf creatures, and Jackson gave us hyena. Its like if the book spoke of a pre-historic giant lion (which did exist in known earth palentology) and Jackson gave us a pre-historic giant bear instead. Yes, pre-historic great bears also existed, but why in the world would he put one in the film in the place of a lion?? Indeed, I am well aware that this (the presence of a mammal that recalls cave hyenas in PJ's vision) cannot be strictly grafted onto the prehistory of our primary world*, but again, this is fantasy — an imaginary history of our own world. Tolkien brilliantly incorporated facets of the natural history of the British Isles (including *ahem* species from the Western Hemisphere) into his secondary world, making it feel all the more real to the reader. And yet, it is clearly fantastical, so force-fitting Middle-earth natural history onto ours is a perilous venture. The logical conclusion is that the fauna too is supposed to be similar to that of current western Europe, and indeed this seems to be the case. Therefore, the hyenas seem out of place. By that logic, the fell beasts would be out of place, too, e.g., JRRT's remarks to Rhona Beare, Letter 211, The Letters of JRRT, ed. H. Carpenter: Pterodactyl. Yes and no. I did not intend the steed of the Witch-King to be what is now called a 'pterodactyl', and often is drawn (with rather less shadowy evidence than lies behind many monsters of the new and fascinating semi-scientific mythology of the 'Prehistoric'). But obviously it is pterodactylic and owes much to the new mythology ["new mythology" meaning paleontology - Tweezers], and its description even provides a sort of way in which it could be a last survivor of older geological eras. Vide ante, the hyena-like critters in Jackson's vision do not cause me to stretch belief, certainly no more so than pterodactyl-like steeds, a race of humans with lifespans of indefinite longevity, and jewelry that causes the mortal wearer to become invisible.  *Long before I turned to the molecular, I wanted to be a paleontologist and poured over various sources on the subject, including the monographs of my great-great uncle.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Ziggy Stardust
Mithlond
May 28 2012, 1:47am
Post #39 of 58
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I really hope they redesign the wargs. The ones in the LOTR films looked like mutated hyenas. I want to see fierce, but beautiful wolves. They can still looked good and terrifying. And wolves look intelligent, and they act it. Hyenas ain't very bright, in fact they're not as intelligent as wolves at all. And they're kinda annoying. Like in this video
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related
That lioness looks annoyed.
"It's okay, I feel like getting up and screaming every time you walk into a room." -Lestrade, Sherlock S2,ep3.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 28 2012, 2:03am
Post #40 of 58
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with screwed up eyes and screwed up hairdo. lol. I've the same birthday as Bowie. In other news, I quite agree. And Lions hate hyena. I really hope they redesign the wargs. The ones in the LOTR films looked like mutated hyenas. I want to see fierce, but beautiful wolves. They can still looked good and terrifying. And wolves look intelligent, and they act it. Hyenas ain't very bright, in fact they're not as intelligent as wolves at all. And they're kinda annoying. Like in this video http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related That lioness looks annoyed.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin
May 28 2012, 2:06am
Post #41 of 58
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I think this John Howe drawing
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is almost the right approach
http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/details.php?image_id=3417&big=1
maybe a bit more of a wolf like tail a bushier maybe but on the right track
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
May 28 2012, 4:52am
Post #42 of 58
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That would have been MUCH better. And, if implemented, will be much better. Perhaps larger ears, and a bushier tale, like you suggest, but the facial features, and the head shape are right. Not identical to a common wolf, but definitely and recognizably lupine. A vast improvement over the hyena face.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
May 28 2012, 7:17am
Post #43 of 58
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It's not too disimilar to the Wargs in LOTR
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Howe's design is a lot better than the final film versions, but I don't think they are that disimilar. The major difference is the face.
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Tweezers of Thu
Ossiriand
May 28 2012, 12:49pm
Post #44 of 58
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That's part of the appeal of JRRT's works (to me at any rate): that feeling of "real history." IIRC, Jackson said something to the effect that he aimed to film the story with a nod to this "real history" feeling. It will be interesting to see how (or if) this will translate to The Hobbit!
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Tweezers of Thu
Ossiriand
May 28 2012, 1:18pm
Post #45 of 58
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Likewise, scientific authenticity isn't my issue here either...
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Faenoriel and I were merely discussing the perils of grafting the natural history of our primary world onto Tolkien's secondary world, a sidebar conversation, if you will. It would seem the original issue is the inevitability that PJ's The Hobbit, like The Lord of the Rings, is ultimately an interpretation of JRRT's originals. Per my first comment to your OP:
I may bemoan certain aspects of PJ's vision of Tolkien's legendarium (primarily character assassination of a few players and Sauron-as-Lighthouse)...
I also bemoan the jarring moment in The Two Towers when Aragorn is dragged over the cliff by the offendingly-designed-non-lupine warg. Although not quite as bad as Frodo castigating Sam and telling him to "go home," it was a deviation from the text that bugged me (although I suppose it has cinematic justification) and far overshadowed the hyena-like critters (which do indeed bear some resemblance to Howe's sketch as Daniel aptly points out).
Even though I, like you, had lupine creatures in mind (and when I read the texts, that is always the case), I recognize (am resigned to?) the fact that PJ et alia will make changes to fit the cinematic story. Some changes I will accept, maybe even like (re: the hyena-like creatures), some I will overlook, and others will cause me to go all geordie-like and declare: "Scupper 'em. Scupper 'em, I say."
So, speaking for myself, wolves to hyenas is a minor concern, i.e., one of those "I can accept, even like" changes. "What-the-fudge" deviations from plot or Bilbo (or Gandalf or Thorin...) acting out-of-character is a much greater concern. With regard to the latter, what I have seen so far is reassuring (esp. M. Freeman as Mr. Baggins). What wargs and lobs look like is icing on the cake — or not, depending on your viewpoint.
Its (sic) like if the book spoke of a pre-historic giant lion (which did exist in known earth palentology)
Well, hey, thanks for schooling me!
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Bladerunner
Mithlond
May 28 2012, 1:40pm
Post #46 of 58
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Hopefully the Warg fight sequences will be more realistic than in TTT...
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In the TTT, the fighting sequences between the Rohirrim and the Warg Riders were choreographed as if both opponents were riding horses. Rather than using this classical approach, it would have been more realistic and savage to have shown the wargs following their natural instinct and going straight for the horses' necks or hind legs while the warg riders leaped from the wargs onto the falling Rohirrim.
On another note - I remember someone posting that the spelling "Worgs" was used on another website. I wonder if that was a typo, or meant as an invented distinction between supposed ME species.
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 28 2012, 2:37pm
Post #47 of 58
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The hyenas wouldn't be that unliked
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if they at least looked good, design-wise. Real hyenas aren't exactly renown for their beauty (though personally I've always seen beauty in the striped and the brown hyena, and even the spotted hyena are cute when still puppies) but at least they look like fearsome predators. The CGI monster hyenas look like goofy mutant robots. They're not even that threathening, imo. Just being big and ugly doesn't make you scary. It just makes you.... big and ugly.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Faenoriel
Dor-Lomin
May 28 2012, 2:39pm
Post #48 of 58
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is what makes it here. That creature certainly has lupine soul, even though his body is still rather clumsy.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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Tweezers of Thu
Ossiriand
May 28 2012, 3:16pm
Post #49 of 58
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The design could have been better, but I attribute that in part to the CGI of the time, e.g., the wargs' faces, jaws, etc. were kind of static. More mobility would have helped (just as it does in CGI'ed human faces, the uncanny valley and all that) and at least in part might have alleviated some of the machine-like qualities. As pointed out above, the gait was odd, too. With all that in mind, I'm not convinced a more lupine-like creature would have been an improvement given the technology at the time. I am sure we would have found something to carp about even if the critters were more wolf-like.
On a semi-related note, the CGI'ed dire wolves of HBO's Game of Thrones are decent renditions to my eyes: realistic, but with a fluid, almost otherworldly quality, very fitting for the atmosphere. They come across as beautiful, graceful predators, but I surely would not want one snarling in my face. Anyway, the improvement of technology is evident in GoT's Season 2 dire wolves versus LotR hyenas. So perhaps the latter might be improved, too, in the pending Hobbit? My guess is that the wargs will not be identical to those we saw in The Lord of the Rings.
(This post was edited by Tweezers of Thu on May 28 2012, 3:23pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
May 28 2012, 3:19pm
Post #50 of 58
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That illusttration isn't perfect, but it is certainly an improvement.
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Make the tail more wolf-like and lower the shoulders a bit and it is almost perfect. I've been trying to find an image of Larn vs. a pack of dire wolves from Ralph Bakshi's Fire and Ice, but no luck.
"Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." - Aragorn
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