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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 27 2015, 2:34pm
Post #1 of 19
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Happy Durin's Day (TH:DoS)!
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BILBO: Come back! Come back! It's the last light of the moon! The last moon of autumn!
Based on the phases of the moon seen at Rivendell on Midsummer's Eve and at Erebor when the keyhole to the Secret Door is revealed, and assuming standard lunar cycles, Durin's Day in The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug fell on October 27, TA 2940.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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ThorinsNemesis
Menegroth
Oct 27 2015, 2:42pm
Post #2 of 19
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I was already wondering if I was the only one that noticed this  .
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 27 2015, 3:19pm
Post #3 of 19
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I've posted about this before. But, I assume that you've also noticed how the moon has magically transformed to full in TH:BotFA when Smaug attacks Erebor? Holy Dramatic License, Bard-man!
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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ThorinsNemesis
Menegroth
Oct 27 2015, 3:33pm
Post #4 of 19
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Yeah I did notice 
Either Smaug took his time a few days to burn Laketown, or the moon can magically change in Middle-earth  .
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ThorinsNemesis
Menegroth
Oct 27 2015, 3:47pm
Post #6 of 19
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Seeing how he carelessly pulled this and that from the treasure hoard, I doubt it would be a few days; he may have even woken the dragon less than an hour after he entered 
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Dor-Lomin
Oct 27 2015, 3:49pm
Post #7 of 19
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Iīm celebrating it with a huge cold LOL
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 27 2015, 3:53pm
Post #8 of 19
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Even if the cat-and-mouse game between Smaug and the company had lasted for days, there would have had to have been a full week from when Bilbo enters the Mountain to Smaug's attack on Esgaroth. Coincidentally, there really is a full moon today (the last super-moon in the current cycle, if I'm not mistaken).
To Isaac: Sorry to learn you've got a cold, Recommendation: Hot, spiced apple cider!
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 27 2015, 4:05pm)
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Dame Ioreth
Dor-Lomin
Oct 27 2015, 6:00pm
Post #9 of 19
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How does one celebrate Durin's Day?
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I imagine there would be roasted meat and lots of ale, but other than that...?
_
Heed WBA when building blanket forts.
ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 27 2015, 6:17pm
Post #10 of 19
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Ale, roasted meat, music and games of nine-pins?
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Dame Ioreth
Dor-Lomin
Oct 27 2015, 6:24pm
Post #11 of 19
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there are no fountains around here. I'd hate to walk in on dwarfs getting ready for the feast!
_
Heed WBA when building blanket forts.
ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Thrain II
Menegroth
Oct 27 2015, 6:39pm
Post #12 of 19
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I just had my share of roasted meat and cold beer at my halls, I hope you are all celebrating this great day! 
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Cirashala
Doriath
Oct 27 2015, 9:40pm
Post #14 of 19
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Ah! But here in lies the problem of TH as a novel.
Tolkien did place quite a bit of emphasis on lunar cycles, especially in LOTR. But when he went back to revise TH, the lunar cycles wouldn't match up at all with what he needed in order to have the story make sense.
So it isn't PJ's fault that the lunar cycles don't match up in the films- Tolkien's didn't match up in the book either!
So I'm curious if you're going by book or film for the phases of the moon in order to calculate Durin's Day. They might be different, for all we know
On that note, according to the Gregorian calendar, which is the one the world currently uses, the last moon of autumn in the northern hemisphere isn't supposed to occur until November 25th, since the technical first day of Winter on the calendar isn't until December 21st .
I'd be curious to look at Tolkien's Shire calendar and figure out the weeks and months compared to the real world calendar, and find out which dates correspond with what  I wonder when Christmas would land in Middle-earth as well (my favorite holiday), which I guess in ME would be Yule
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 27 2015, 10:47pm
Post #15 of 19
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This is strictly a calculation based on the films. October 27 would be the date according to Shire Reckoning. Converted to our modern Gregorian calendar, Durin's Day of TA 2940 (films) would fall on our October 17 (if we equate Midyear with June 21, which would be the date nearest, on average, to the summer solstice. Tolkien, himself, seemed to favor June 23, St. John's Eve, in his conversions, a slight contradiction to what he wrote in Appendix D).
Prof. Tolkien placed Durin's Day of 2941 (book) on October 19. That almost works astronomically if we assume that the crescent moon on Midsummer's Eve was right on the verge of becoming the new moon. I actually prefer the date October 22 for the first day of the last week of autumn as it also fell on the first day of the week in S.R.. In any case, the implication of Tolkien's date is that the Dwarves observed the start of winter on or near the beginning of November.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 27 2015, 11:01pm)
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Cirashala
Doriath
Oct 27 2015, 11:00pm
Post #16 of 19
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Cool- thanks for the clarification!
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So if Tolkien favored June 23 to be Midsummer's eve, then Durin's Day of that year would have in fact fallen on my birthday (according to the books)- that is so cool!
We do know that Tolkien tended to have a lot of contradictions (like stating that Fili was youngest in TH novel, but in the appendices lists his birth year as five years before Kili's). So if he wrote a contradiction to what he put in Appendix D, then where is the contradiction at? Is it in the books themselves, or in other writings? I'm just curious what his thought process was and which text came first and which came last- it might give us an insight into what he finally decided
That's fair, especially considering the extreme northern latitude where Erebor and Gundabad (a former stronghold of dwarves) were located. For instance, by calendar only, winter is said to begin in the US on December 21st. However, those of us in the northern latitudes of the US (like me- I'm only two hours' drive away from the Canadian border) have winter start sometime in November instead, rather than December, due to colder temperatures and the possibility (depending on the year) of snow earlier than December 21st (however, it's still the winter solstice because that's not based on weather but rather on the axis tilt of the earth and hours of daylight).
Given that, if you interposed a map of ME onto a map of Europe, Erebor would be significantly north of the upper latitudes of the United States, I can imagine that winter weather would begin much sooner for the dwarves of Erebor than it would for those of us closer to the equator than they are
Another point to mention is that the end of October is when harvest is over in the northern hemisphere, and the end of harvest typically signifies another season to cultures, or had in the past. I stumbled across this historical tidbit when I researched why there were two words to describe this time of year- fall and autumn. Turns out this debate went on as late as the 1800's, and the seasonal shift did originally revolve around agricultural seasons. Spring came when the ground was thawed enough to plant crops, summer when the spring rains were done, autumn when the harvest was over, and winter when the snow began to fly.
So if the dwarves' calendar (or whatever they used) referenced the lunar cycle surrounding the end of harvest season, then late October/early November makes perfect sense when considered in the realm of both weather and agricultural seasons, which were the markers for seasons for many centuries
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 27 2015, 11:19pm
Post #17 of 19
(342 views)
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Tolkien's Shire-to-Gregorian Conversion
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I only figured that out (June 23 = Midyear--sorry! not Midsummer's Eve) by calculating how he got our January 1 to come out to 9 Afteryule instead of 11 Afteryule.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 27 2015, 11:52pm
Post #18 of 19
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I glossed over your previous post on first reading and my reply was less than complete! Prof. Tolkien wrote in LotR Appendix D:
It appears...that Mid-year's Day was intended to correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice. In that case the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days, and our New Year's Day corresponded more or less to the Shire January 9.
However, if we equate the Shire's Midyear to our June 21, the date nearest to coinciding with the solstice, then our New Year would correspond to S.R. January 11. We have to place Midyear's Day on June 23 to come out to January 9. Does Tolkien contradict himself? Then he contradicts himself. He is vast. He contains multitudes.
I sympathize with your physical location. We live in Buffalo, just across the Niagara River from Canada.
To determine when the Dwarven New Year begins on our calendar, it should be the day of the last first crescent moon before our October 21 (or October 19 if you use Tolkien's figures). This year it would have fallen on October 14.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 28 2015, 12:02am)
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NManfredi
Ossiriand
Oct 28 2015, 1:49am
Post #19 of 19
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Happy Durin's day for you too!
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I'll be celebrating it by finishing some stories I'm writing! Happy Durin's day to you all! (P.S. I have not been around very much because I feel I've spoiled myself many things from the EE already and I want to experience all the rest on my own. But I still lurk in the shadows from time to time!)
"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"
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Cupcakes
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