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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Feb 13 2008, 10:43pm
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Goblins or Orcs?
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Putting aside the present chaos that is 'A Day in the Life of a Movie called The Hobbit', and assuming one day it *will* happen...
When Fran, Philippa and Peter get around to writing it, will they be "goblins" as they are called in the Hobbit? Or will they be revised for consistency as "orcs" instead?
Has anyone ever heard any mention or comment about this? Any opinions/guesses which it would be? Or, might they find a way to use them both interchangeably somehow?
-mwirkk :)
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Feb 13 2008, 11:00pm
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(because "v" is cooler than "w")
Legolas does say "goblins!" when he picks up one of the arrows in the dwarf carcasses in Moria right before the Watcher decides he doesn't like being disturbed all that much. A few scenes later, in the Chamber of Mazarbul (sp?), he says "orcs" rather than goblins when the drums are sounded.
Also, in FOTR EE, right before Frodo and Sam leave the inn, four hobbits sit around the table and talk about stuff, and "goblins" are mentioned... let me pull up the quote:
GAFFER GAMGEE
There's been some strange folk crossing the Shire. Dwarves and others of a less than savory nature.
DADDY TWOFOOT
War is brewing. The mountains are fair teaming with Goblins.
So they already used goblins here and there, though orcs was the more common term. I imagine that it will be very much the same in the Hobbit, if they wish to remain consistent to the LOTR films; the use of the word orcs more often than goblins, but goblins certainly mentioned. They are, at least in the film world, seemingly the same thing, though I know others have different interpretations.
My LJ
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One Ringer
Dor-Lomin
Feb 14 2008, 12:53am
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They've been pre-established, so there will be no problem. 
"Death is just another pathway . . . one which we all must take."
-Gandalf from "The Return of the King"
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Feb 14 2008, 1:54am
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the Hobbit here, not LotR. The term in the Hobbit is very much GOBLINS, not orcs.
So, you don't think they will stay true to the book, and instead will take up using the term orcs for the sake of an out-of-order continuity?
I can see a heated debate either way. I think those that actually read the books, and read The Hobbit first, will prefer Goblin over Orc, regardless of the seeming discontinuity with other texts. And those who know the story only, or primarily, thru the movies alone will probably prefer orcs (or not have an opinion). That's my guess.
But I'm also curious about it because of the bridge movie. The inspiration for that film will come from materials where the term orc is usually preferred. So if 'goblins' is adhered to in the Hobbit (thereby placating purists), how would a transition in terms occur?
I think it's true that JRR changed to orcs for LotR because he felt goblins was too general a term.
I'm actually going to have to go back and review the texts to see if maybe I haven't missed a few cracks that would allow a rationalization for going one way or another.
-mwirkk :)
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Feb 14 2008, 5:01am
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Orcs can be mentioned a couple of times, just as goblins were mentioned a couple of times in LotR. The goblins of Moria (same neck of woods as the Misty Mountains) are smaller than the Uruk-hai in LotR. In The Hobbit movie, Gandalf or someone can explain to Bilbo that even great orcs can move with great speed through the small tunnels by running bent over with their knuckles scraping the ground (Tolkien's approximate words from The Hobbit.) I think you're on the right track, mwirkk.
Where's Frodo?
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sador
Gondolin
Feb 14 2008, 6:33am
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As you've mentioned, the Shire Hobbits use 'goblins' in LOTR; and the Four Travelers have been quite a bit under the influence of Bilbo.
So I guess Bilbo would use 'goblins', and so would Gandalf in his intercourse with him, and the dwarves (if they remember to) - but Gandalf debating with Thorin or Elrond would use 'orcs', and as the movies develope, so would Bilbo. I guess in the Battle of Five Armies 'orcs' will be used, but the name isn't spoken that often, so it won't jar Hobbit-firsters that much.
Beorn might use 'goblins', I think - his people have live quite in seclusion. And The Great Goblin is a wonderful name, regardless of how the race is called.
"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Feb 14 2008, 9:51am
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used in LotR, I'd love to see Goblins as the dominant mutant in The Hobbit. Film 2 could show the trend changing over that 60-year period of Middle-earth inhabitants moving from Goblins (pre-Sauron return) to Orcs (Sauron/Saruman minions). Some comment could be made about the batch of brownies created after this new rise of the enemy being more notorious or blood-thirsty than their predecessors.
We could also have Bilbo ask Gandalf and Thorin what the difference is during the Unexpected Party. Bilbo will most likely be the "everyman" through much of the story to help the audience (non-book readers) get schooled on the euphemisms. ;)
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
TORn's Observations Lists
(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Feb 14 2008, 9:53am)
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Feb 14 2008, 4:01pm
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"dominant mutants" -- I love it!
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Hey, how about some hobgoblins too? They can be a little side branch on the goblin/orc family tree.
Where's Frodo?
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gracie
Nevrast
Feb 16 2008, 9:06am
Post #9 of 14
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 I think they should be called orcs and goblins! They are already established names in LOTR!
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overlithe64
Ossiriand
Feb 17 2008, 3:07am
Post #10 of 14
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I agree I think Goblin should be the primary descriptive name in the Hobbit..with a stray ORC thrown in by and Elf or Wizard to show that they are one and the same. The general non orc/goblin discerning public deserves some clarity after all Saruman confused things horribly with the Uruks....Not to mention the seemingly non verbal Moria goblins vrs the articulate, though crass and ever disgusting Orcs of Minus Morgul area. It did get confusing to the general public.....
(This post was edited by overlithe64 on Feb 17 2008, 3:08am)
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orcbane
Mithlond
Feb 18 2008, 10:01pm
Post #12 of 14
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Goblins may not be identical to Orcs
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But at least it is clear that Goblins inhabit the Misty Mountains. Someone here mentioned Hobgoblins, which are mentioned in passing in the Hobbit as inhabiting the area North of Mirkwood. I am really curious about those, and what they are exactly. I have not come accross any other mention of them anywhere else. My guess would be a larger (or maybe even a smaller) type of Goblin, perhaps something approaching a half-troll.
If I was making the film, I would likely bring in a Hobgoblin as a kind of change-up or surprise. Not being defined (I think) it would be too good a chance to make up something new, to pass up.
As far as Goblins & Orcs being the same, I think a case can be made that they are not, or at least might not be. Tolkien imbedded some conflicting information within the texts. We know it evolved and he changed his mind on things, or as he might have put it, discovered new information. I suspect he toyed with the idea of giving Goblins a different lineage. I think it was that Goblins were degraded men, while Orcs were degraded elves, and I think I see it suggested in certain text. But I have not seen clear evidence that he finally went with that idea, and it may be he rejected it.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Feb 19 2008, 1:09am
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...that Goblins could have been reconciled as a local race, too, with a range limited to beneath the Misty Mountains. But in The Battle of Five Armies, the fourth army is a massive hoard that come down from the Grey Mountains in the North. They must be connected culturally to the goblins of the Misty Mountains because it is described how word was transmitted by 'means unknown' betwixt. Moreover, keeping things thoroughly muttled, is the juxta-position of the goblins in the Hobbit and the orcs of Moria.
As has been said in essays and critiques elsewhere, it may come down to a destinction of symmantics, as there are an array of different words for them, depending on from whom, and from whose perspective, they are named. So it might be that a variety of names are introduced into the narrative. But I wonder if that would be deemed to be "confusing" for some audience members.
One thing I'm also wondering - how much of an influence will the design of the orcs of Moria, which we have already seen, will have on the design of the goblins encountered in the pass?
-mwirkk :)
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orcbane
Mithlond
Feb 19 2008, 3:46am
Post #14 of 14
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Into the wild blue tangent
In the Hobbit there is clearly some sort of family group for Goblins. Bolg is son of Azog, and a 'Goblin Imp' (I think he also calls him a young squeaker) is throttled by Gollum. The context is an Goblin child. There are females in their lives, but whether they are Goblin or Womenkind (captured ?) I can not say. Yet.
By Lotr, he has pretty much abandoned, or I should say ignors the Orc Family concept.
But I have little doubt both Orcs and Goblins 'came into the world in the ususal way', and not grown like grubs in the mud as the movie suggested.
But back to the thread...Misty Mountain Goblin Boys (Plucka Pluck Pluck Pluck) different from Moria Goblins ? No doubt, no doubt. They will be more vocal and closer to men in their ways. Like the more advanced Orcs in Rotk. I hope they keep at least one Goblin song in btw. It needs some fine tuning  but I feel like it could be done with style.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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