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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Mar 24 2016, 12:37am
Post #1 of 17
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Gandalf the not-so wise.
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I'm sorry, but I do have to say this. What exactly was Gandalf blithering on about to Thorin at the start of DOS in Bree? It didn't seem to make much sense. And was never really referred to again in the movies. Also, it seems a bit unwise to encourage a proud-Dwarf like Thorin to reclaim a treasure like the Arkenstone and to tell him of its importance. It's possibly Gandalf's fault that Thorin became obsessed by it if it was the jewel that would unite all the races of the Dwarves. In fact, I am surprised that Thorin didn't say this to him later that it was the Wizard that first put the idea into his head, so no wonder he was keen on keeping it. Well, I suppose we should be grateful that this Gandalf was never in the First age. He would have probably said to Feanor that re-capturing the Silmarils would free the world from Morgoth!
I suppose that as the movies at least in regard to smoking reflected the nanny state of today's society the same could be true of alcohol. As well as suffering from Tobacco, Gandalf drunk a bit too much of that strong ale in Bree which adled his mind. Happens to everyone kids, watch out!
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No One in Particular
Menegroth
Mar 24 2016, 12:47am
Post #2 of 17
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Even in the books, Gandalf was a chess player, going here and there as he would, "inflaming the hearts of men", always attempting to motivate the Free Peoples to resist the Darkness.
Gandalf in the DoS is doing the same thing-just with a complete absence of subtlety or finesse. :)
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Mar 24 2016, 8:04am
Post #3 of 17
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Also, it seems a bit unwise to encourage a proud-Dwarf like Thorin to reclaim a treasure like the Arkenstone and to tell him of its importance. It was just as unwise to tell Thorin that he should steal the whole treasure in the book. And in the end Thorin became obsessed by the treasure. So Gandalf was just as unwise in the book as in the film. At least in the film it makes more sense to just steal the arkenstone, if they take the arcenstone the rest of the dwarves will help them killing Smaug, instead of like in the book where they are going to steal the whole treasure from Smaug with out a plan.
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 24 2016, 12:24pm
Post #4 of 17
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Well, if you must, you must....
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... but I can't see the problem here. This is the story Tolkien told: that Gandalf set the whole adventure in motion when he chanced on Thorin in the inn at Bree. He was concerned primarily about the threat Smaug posed if Sauron were to make use of him in a planned war in the north, Thorin wanted revenge on the dragon (and his treasure). That is, essentially, what they show in the film, with a few shifts in emphasis.
As for the smoking and alcohol, what does that have to do with either? Far from being 'nanny state' about it I think they were actually quite brave in the films in the way they avoided censoring the pipe-smoking that is so much part of the original stories. It's only Saruman who complains about it!
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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LSF
Mithlond
Mar 24 2016, 1:25pm
Post #5 of 17
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perfectly explained for me....
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Gandalf's reasons for doing this are perfectly explained and reasonable to me. Which would be worse- a king with gold-sickness/arkenstone-obsession that he could be snapped out of or a dragon in league with Sauron when Sauron starts making his moves?
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Omnigeek
Menegroth
Mar 24 2016, 10:05pm
Post #6 of 17
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Gandalf was looking at the BIG picture
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Remember, the Istari were sent to look after the welfare of Middle-earth in general. Smaug posed a threat to Lothlorien and Imladris which would have prevented them from coming to the aid of Men when Sauron arose. Setting Thorin about the quest to eventually get rid of Smaug eliminated that threat (in fact, Gandalf says as much to Merry and Pippin in the Appendices of ROTK). Restoing the lost kingdom of Erebor gave the Dwarves another stronghold, yet another bulwark against Sauron.
As was said earlier, Gandalf was a chess player, a deep one, and he used the tools available to him.
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 28 2016, 8:40pm
Post #8 of 17
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As was said earlier, Gandalf was a chess player, a deep one, and he used the tools available to him.
And IMO, vs. the book, I admire the sensitive handling of Gandalf in the films, who shows real qualms about abandoning the dwarves, and closes his eyes in pain when Frodo volunteers to take the Ring. I appreciate PJ & co. taking note of how things *may* appear, if a book is literally brought to screen. And Gandalf does tell Thorin to not enter the mountain without him - although I could go 'round and 'round in my head as to whether Gandalf, knowing full well what Thorin and dwarves were like, should have left them at all, and then again, Gandalf ISN'T at the overlook, so what was Thorin supposed to do at that point....
And apparently re the AUJ EE Thorin knew the score, as it were. He knew that in serving his own purpose, it was serving Gandalf's, but then again, re the films, that's not a bad thing, I think. Far as I can tell life was better in the North with the dwarves in place, which I think even Thranduil knew (tho I am imagining that, but to me it *feels* that way).
It's Radagast that I lift my eyebrows over re the films, as there is no mournful line at all, from him, about the dwarves.
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LSF
Mithlond
Mar 28 2016, 10:00pm
Post #9 of 17
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I've got no problem with Radagast not being as sad about leaving the dwarves to investigate DG. Firstly, he doesn't have the same emotional attachment that Gandalf does to them. I like that he's the voice of reason there, in terms of the big picture. And the way his lines are delivered, he's doesn't sound happy about convincing Gandalf to leave his friends to investigate. It sucks, but someone has to tell Gandalf "you're leaving them for the greater good."
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Omnigeek
Menegroth
Mar 29 2016, 11:17pm
Post #10 of 17
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I didn't think the books portrayed Gandalf as insensitive
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Gandalf looked at the big picture. That doesn't mean he was manipulative or insensitive. Just because he saw how Thorin's expedition fit in with neutralizing a threat to Imladris and Lothlorien doesn't mean he was cold-heartedly sacrificing the dwarves and the books said Gandalf had a genuine affection for the hobbits even before he realized they would have an important role in defeating Sauron. I think he was far more attached to Bilbo than to Thorin. For his part, Thorin was a wise old dwarf himself and it appeared to me he was taking advantage of Gandalf for his own purposes as much as Gandalf was taking advantage of Thorin's interest in reclaiming his heritage. Thorin was also quite willing to forego Gandalf's advice and participation if he needed to as he wasn't at all convinced about Bilbo after the Unexpected Party.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Mar 31 2016, 5:16pm
Post #11 of 17
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It does not seem very subtle or wise to inflame a Dwarf-lord like Thprin's Treasure lust. Emphasising the importance of the Arkenstone does this. Ad it nearly ended in disaster.
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StingingFly
Menegroth
Apr 1 2016, 12:13am
Post #12 of 17
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Overall I was disappointed with the Gandalf of the Hobbit. He often came across as bumbling and weak, especially in relation to Galadriel, who was clearly superior to him in power and authority in these films. Even his striking down of the Great Goblin, which was awesome in the books was kind of lame. Not wise was going into Dul Guldur alone. Not wise was not connecting the resurgence of Sauron with the discovery of Bilbo's ring. Roughed up by, then running away from Azog? Beaten to death by a single Orc? Sent away from the Battle of Dul Guldur on a bunny sled?! There is no way that Gandalf stands down a Balrog.
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wizzardly
Nargothrond
Apr 1 2016, 12:20am
Post #13 of 17
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He came across like Bilbo's silly grandpa, running around willy nilly.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Apr 1 2016, 5:46am
Post #14 of 17
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Gandalf in the hobbit is just as great as he is in LOTR. He is not weak just look at his Goblintown entry, and he is just as wise as he was before like "true courage", "why Bilbo Baggins" and many more.
Even his striking down of the Great Goblin, which was awesome in the books was kind of lame I thought it was really funny and a great scene.
Not wise was going into Dul Guldur alone. Not wise was not connecting the resurgence of Sauron with the discovery of Bilbo's ring This happened in the book, the first time Gandalf was in Dol Guldur he was alone and he nearly survived and if you think Gandalf was not wise connecting the ring with Sauron then blame Tolken for that one.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Apr 1 2016, 6:22am
Post #15 of 17
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And he has weak moments in LOTR too
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Like Gandalf vs Witch King, Gandalf the gray could defeat a Balrog but Gandalf the white has no chance against a ringwraith? In DOS Gandalf did at least fight back against Sauron before he got defeated and that is why he is weak later agents the orc later and could not fight during the battle of Dol Guldur, just as Galadriel becomes weak after banishing Sauron.
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StingingFly
Menegroth
Apr 1 2016, 9:14am
Post #16 of 17
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...in the book, Gandalf explains of Dul Guldur, "I was finding things out, as usual; and a nasty dangerous business it was. Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped" (Hobbit, pg.37). This is Gandalf going in on his own, encountering danger on his own, and escaping on his own. He then comes back with reinforcements and drives the Necromancer out. In the film he enters on his own, but is then knocked on his butt and mocked by Azog, runs away from Azog, gets utterly smashed by Sauron, gets put in a bird cage, gets mocked, roughed up and beaten to death by a single orc, gets carried like a baby by Galadriel, kissed back to life, then sent away from the battle on a bunny sled. I'll take the book Gandalf.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 1 2016, 12:38pm
Post #17 of 17
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...in the book, Gandalf explains of Dul Guldur, "I was finding things out, as usual; and a nasty dangerous business it was. Even I, Gandalf, only just escaped" (Hobbit, pg.37). This is Gandalf going in on his own, encountering danger on his own, and escaping on his own. He then comes back with reinforcements and drives the Necromancer out. In the film he enters on his own, but is then knocked on his butt and mocked by Azog, runs away from Azog, gets utterly smashed by Sauron, gets put in a bird cage, gets mocked, roughed up and beaten to death by a single orc, gets carried like a baby by Galadriel, kissed back to life, then sent away from the battle on a bunny sled. I'll take the book Gandalf.
Yes, the book-Gandalf (the Grey) who is so wimpy that Sauron, sensing that he is sniffing around Dol Guldur, flees into the East and disappears for 400 years.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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