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Girdle of Melian
Menegroth
Nov 18 2014, 11:34am
Post #1 of 21
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Language of The Enemy and Black Speech of Mordor?
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It's been said that (unless it is false) that Galadriel will be using the language of the enemy (currently, we know of that as the Black Speech of Mordor).
Questions:
1. What would be the advantage of Galadriel using the Black Speech of Mordor against Sauron (who created it?). The only advantage I could potentially think of is that maybe she could use it control the Ringwraiths and Orcs and somehow wrestle control over them from Sauron, temporarily at least? Unlikely though...
2. How did she learn it? I can't possibly imagine why Melian will teach her that, or even if Melian herself would have learned it? I guess Gandalf used it (at least in the movies)
3. It is said that the Black Speech of Mordor is a spell by itself...is this accurate? Maybe at least in the One Ring....which adds another question..the 3 Rings were not made by Sauron, but his methods were used, so that means it's not evil on its own? But it would be if the One Ring was found and worn by someone evil?
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Faramir74
Nevrast
Nov 18 2014, 1:36pm
Post #2 of 21
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Galadriel wants to know for certain that the enemy is definitely Sauron. Presumably by conversing with him in his own language she might be able to perceive his thoughts and plans. Whether she does speak the language so all can hear it, such as the Nine, or just telepathically to Sauron himself remains to be seen.
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Girdle of Melian
Menegroth
Nov 18 2014, 1:45pm
Post #3 of 21
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thanks...though I fail to see how that would help her other than determine that it is Sauron himself, or see what is his on mind...I guess that remains to be seen..you are right....
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Nov 18 2014, 2:21pm
Post #4 of 21
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I would have thought that it would be an indication of her "temptation"
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Rather than a tactic on her part.
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Girdle of Melian
Menegroth
Nov 18 2014, 3:32pm
Post #5 of 21
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as if she was possessed by Sauron and she ends up speaking the Black Speech that he made?
Coz I believe in one of the blogs, I believed it was mentioned in the visual companion that she will be using the language of the enemy against him? This is the blog, or maybe it does not suggest that...
“
[BOTFA SPOILERS: GALADRIEL IN DOL GULDUR]
When they part in An Unexpected Journey, Galadriel makes Gandalf a promise: ‘If you should ever need my help. I will come.’ She fulfills that promise in The Battle of Five Armies when, at Dol Guldur, the Wizard confronts the Necormancer. As in The Fellowship of the Ring, the filmmakers opted to explore, once more, a surprising aspect in Galadriel’s character. ‘It’s almost,” says Cate, ‘as if you cannot have good without the threat of it being challenged and even taken over to the dark side, as if you can only know shadow when you know light. Peter wanted to give a shadow to Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings, and he really went there in The Hobbit. He referred to it as ‘psychic distress’, that sense of a war within, that internal battle between one’s dark side and one’s better self. In coming to Gandalf’s aid, Galadriel has to grapple with the seductive power of the Necromancer to draw other beings into a void of darkness, despair, and decay. She has to summon every particle of her strength to resist and, in doing so, we see Galadriel’s incredible power and realize that -but for the finesse and strength of her spirit- how quickly that power for goodness could be turned to evil.’
An astonishing moment in Galadriel’s struggle with the Necromancer is when she uses the language of the enemy. ‘Unlike Elvish,’ says Cate, ‘Black Speech is thick, harsh, and very gruttal. It’s completely unexpected and shocking that such a sound would ever emerge from her mouth…
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2014, 3:33pm
Post #6 of 21
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1. What would be the advantage of Galadriel using the Black Speech of Mordor against Sauron (who created it?). The only advantage I could potentially think of is that maybe she could use it control the Ringwraiths and Orcs and somehow wrestle control over them from Sauron, temporarily at least? Unlikely though...
It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose.
-Appendix F, "The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age"
So one might view Black Speech, like George Orwell’s Newspeak, as a language Sauron specifically constructed to control the thought of his minions.
Indeed, true Black Speech seems to have been the language of Mordor’s leadership:
From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that were in the Third Age wide-spread among the Orcs, such as ghâsh 'fire', but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dûr and of the captains of Mordor.
-ibid
So one could imagine orcs being conditioned to follow almost automatically a command in Black Speech, especially if given with sufficient authority, which Galadriel most certainly has.
But one caveat for Galadriel:
It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill. But such falls and betrayals, alas, have happened before.
-The Council of Elrond
2. How did she learn it? I can't possibly imagine why Melian will teach her that, or even if Melian herself would have learned it? I guess Gandalf used it (at least in the movies)
It’s an Elf thing:
Now the Eldar were beyond all other peoples skilled on tongues; and Felegund discovered also that he could read in the minds of Men such thoughts as they wished to reveal in speech, so that their words were easily interpreted.
-The Sil, Of the coming of Men into the West
3. It is said that the Black Speech of Mordor is a spell by itself...is this accurate?
It was a device of Sauron, so one might think so, but then we get into the whole "what is magic?" thing.
Maybe at least in the One Ring....which adds another question..the 3 Rings were not made by Sauron, but his methods were used, so that means it's not evil on its own?
Recall the stone of Minas Anor that was accidentally marred by Denethor. So think how much more marred Sauron could *intentionally* make The One Ring!
But it would be if the One Ring was found and worn by someone evil?
They’d probably fall into thrall to Sauron a lot quicker than someone good.
******************************************
"Kai provseisi, kai avpeisi."
("There and back again.")
-Heraclitus of Ephesus, c. 500 BC
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Spriggan
Dor-Lomin
Nov 18 2014, 3:39pm
Post #7 of 21
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I'm not sure that offers us much clue either way.
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It says she uses it during the struggle but I'm not sure it says much on the question of using it for or against him.
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Girdle of Melian
Menegroth
Nov 18 2014, 3:41pm
Post #8 of 21
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I love the quote about studying the arts of the enemy...you think PJ and Boyens actually based it on that? lol
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2014, 4:31pm
Post #9 of 21
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I love the quote about studying the arts of the enemy...you think PJ and Boyens actually based it on that? lol
I've long hoped Saruman would be portrayed totally as a good guy in The Hobbit so first-time viewers would see Gandalf's decision to consult him about the ring in FOTR as a wise decision, then be really gut-punched when Saruman betrays the West.
Similarly, I'm hoping Galadriel will be portrayed in The Hobbit as dangerous, rebellious, and perhaps a bit too willing to use the darker magics, so that when Aragorn leads the Fellowship into Lothlorien first-time watchers will be yelling "No! No! No!", and when she goes nuclear they'll go "I knew it!! I knew it!!!", and then they'd be truly awed by Galadriel resisting the temptation of the ring and passing her test. It'd be soooo moving and beautiful!
******************************************
"Kai provseisi, kai avpeisi."
("There and back again.")
-Heraclitus of Ephesus, c. 500 BC
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Nov 18 2014, 4:38pm)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Nov 18 2014, 4:35pm
Post #10 of 21
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I like your thinking there, Darkstone
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*Crosses fingers*
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Nov 18 2014, 4:50pm
Post #11 of 21
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Gandalf knows Black Speech SSOoo.. Why wouldn't Galadriel TOO?
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1. He Utters it @ the Council of Elrond
2. He shows the Rag with it on it
to Thorin in the Prancing Pony.
3. The Graphitti on the Elvish Statue
@ the Entrance to Mirkwood, Also...
4. Thorin seems to Understand Azog
when they are Stuck in the Pine Trees...
Question izz HOW...did Thorin know?
?bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Girdle of Melian
Menegroth
Nov 18 2014, 5:02pm
Post #12 of 21
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I just hope, more than anything that PJ learned from that terrible Nuclear Galadriel special effect monster voice, so OTT and corny...what a waste of Cate's acting abilities..lol
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 18 2014, 6:18pm
Post #13 of 21
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Tauriel's healing scene is pretty much the same sort of thing in my eyes and also 1000000000 time worse. He doesn't seem to realize that stuff like that can be unintentionally funny.
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Nov 18 2014, 7:38pm
Post #14 of 21
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IT would be.."Bone Chilling" to HEAR Sir Christopher Lee
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Speak "BLACK SSss---peach"...ALSO?
Cue "TwightZONE" Music...
Do, DO,do..do.DO..DO..dO...DOOOOOOO....
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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dubulous
Nargothrond
Nov 18 2014, 8:08pm
Post #15 of 21
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It seems they are going to explore Galadriel's darker side in this movie and I actually like that. While she is ultimately good, she also has many of the qualities that have lead others to darkness. Also, like you said, for movie viewers it'll give a whole new meaning to Gimli's warning words when they enter the forest of Lothlorien where lives the "elf-witch or terrible power."
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Bombadil
Gondolin
Nov 18 2014, 8:17pm
Post #16 of 21
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Here iz a Question? Does David Salo...know Black Speach?
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He izz the "Go-To-Guy",
when it comes to MiddleEARTH Languages
SSOoo. Is he the ONE to give the Pronunciation
of it for The CAST..?
Jus' Curious
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Elthir
Hithlum
Nov 19 2014, 1:17pm
Post #17 of 21
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Tolkien only invented a mere taste of it with the Ring Inscription (I'm not sure there is more of it, or notably more of it, published anywhere to date) -- there is a 'debased' example from The Lord of the Rings as well, although Tolkien himself gave two translations of this!
The films (the five so far) employ some of Tolkien's actual constructions, but also plenty of Neo-elvish, Neo-Dwarvish, Neo-Black speech -- fan invented stuff 'based' on the actual examples Tolkien constructed.
There is much more Quenya and Sindarin to base Neo-elvish on for example, but even that becomes a complex matter in itself, considering Tolkien's often changing mind and taste.
BTW, I'm sure the actors have a pronunciation coach, but the correct stress on 'Tauriel' is not always getting observed by the actors in my opinion.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 19 2014, 1:31pm)
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Elarie
Hithlum
Nov 19 2014, 1:52pm
Post #18 of 21
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Galadriel learning Black Speech
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Just a thought on how or why Galadriel would learn black speech: as protector of Lorien and someone who has been in Middle Earth through many wars and upheavals, I think Galadriel, and probably others among the elves, would have made it their business to learn the speech of the enemy for spying and interrogation purposes. It would probably be very unpleasant for an elf to learn Black Speech, but could be very necessary on occasion. When movie Gandalf translates the "promise of payment" for Thorin in Bree, it just goes to show how important it is to speak the enemy's language and know what they are up to.
__________________
Farewell hope,
and with hope
farewell fear.
John Milton
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Girdle of Melian
Menegroth
Nov 19 2014, 3:01pm
Post #19 of 21
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I am more curious as to how she would use it against (if so) someone who actually created it...unless she's able to overpower him and use the Nazguls against him, or ask them to turn against one another....lol
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Elthir
Hithlum
Nov 19 2014, 3:49pm
Post #20 of 21
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2. How did she learn it? I can't possibly imagine why Melian will teach her that, or even if Melian herself would have learned it? I guess Gandalf used it (at least in the movies)
The Black Speech did not exist at this time (at the time of Galadriel's living in Doriath with Melian).
It arose in the Dark Years of the Second Age but was forgotten by all but the Nazgul after Sauron was overthrown in that Age. Also, despite their fears, the White Council did not even discover that Sauron had arisen again until Third Age 2850, a mere 40 years before Bilbo was born, nor was this tongue the language of Dol Guldur...
... Appendix F merely generally states that after Sauron arose again, the B. S. became once more the language of Barad-dur and the captains of Mordor.
Unless I've forgotten some reason to believe so from the books, so far I don't believe Galadriel ever learned this language or felt the need to. The Orcs knew Westron, which Galadriel already spoke, and Black Speech was not the tongue of the enemy across Anduin, in general.
The answer that 'well Elves were good at learning languages' is quite vague with respect to Galadriel specifically, and I don't buy that Galadriel would feel the need to learn a language at which the Elves stopped their ears, on the mere possibility that it might help with questioning some captain of Mordor who happened to be taken alive into Lorien... when said invented captive captain arguably spoke Westron as well in any event.
Tolkien noted in a letter that no other folk willingly used the Black Speech -- and not that anyone has done so (yet) but I see no reason to start hair-splitting that JRRT said 'used' not learned, and that 'willingly' might be broken under some invented circumstance.
It's a film invention to my mind, and I don't fel the need to interpret the invention in such a way that it agrees with Tolkien's world, or is 'possible' in it.
Don't worry Tolkien, no matter what the films do or say the books remain 'inviolate'... something Tolkien's publisher one told JRRT (in essence) when there was a possibility of a film in Tolkien's day...
...I disagree.
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Elthir
Hithlum
Nov 19 2014, 4:53pm
Post #21 of 21
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By the way my last two comments should not be taken as an attack on you or anyone else who does try to interpret 'film fact X or Y' in such a way that it's possible in Tolkien's world...
... it's just that, in the past years, I have read what I find to be fairly strained arguments raised seemingly in order to defend something Jackson made up (for example including that Olorin and Galadriel 'could' have been lovers in Aman before Galadriel was married, due to Galadriel's hair fiddling scene)
And I get that. People naturally want things in the films to stay connected to JRRT's world... but to my mind, when folks have to strain to make a thing 'possible' it also seems to speak against the idea that the the 'book remains' no matter what the films invent... of course the books remain physically, but to my mind the films can alter interpretations of the book.
And I understand that 'strained' is subjective too 
Anyway, reading my last post on B. S. or Black Speech, it seemed like it could be read harsher than I intended.
Thus this.
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