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MyWeeLadGimli
Menegroth
Nov 9 2015, 3:12am
Post #1 of 26
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Blunt the Knives
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Reading the thread of how people would structure the films differently, one of the most common changes seemed to be cutting this song (or relegating it to the EE).
That song is actually one of my favorite parts of the film, as it's so charming and fun. For that one short scene, I think PJ came closer to the tone and spirit of the book than almost anywhere else in the Hobbit films, yet it seems less than popular around here. Why?
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Goldeneye
Menegroth
Nov 9 2015, 3:20am
Post #2 of 26
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I loved Blunt the Knives. It was perfectly Tolkien and was a great introduction to all the dwarves. Matter of fact, pretty much everything in Bag End during AUJ is perfect! Many people asked if I would cut that from my fan edit...not a chance!
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Mooseboy018
Hithlum
Nov 9 2015, 5:07am
Post #3 of 26
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If a fan editor can't make room for Blunt the Knives, they might as well just stop what they're doing.
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ProudFeet
Nevrast
Nov 9 2015, 12:02pm
Post #4 of 26
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Doesn't fit the tone of the movie
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I agree it's very Tolkien, but to me, it doesn't fit the tone of the rest of the film or the sequels. It was like Peter Jackson was wrestling with the idea of making it a children's film or similar in tone to Lord of the Rings. Misty Mountains for example works because it's sombre and foreshadows. Even Bofur's song at Rivendell works as it's a tavern song. In my opinion, Blunt the Knives and Goblin Town don't work as they are impromptu songs and tonally clash with the rest. I like the segment, but it would have been perfect in a different, more fable like version of the Hobbit.
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Goldeneye
Menegroth
Nov 9 2015, 2:35pm
Post #5 of 26
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I just looked over the weekend, and the longest uncut segment of my entire 4-hour edit of the Hobbit trilogy is the Bag End sequence in AUJ! Followed by Riddles in the Dark and the end credits, lol.
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Danielos
Nargothrond
Nov 9 2015, 4:06pm
Post #7 of 26
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If you watch the sequence carefully, you can clearly see that Fili is acted by Kazinsky rather than O´Gorman in many shots. That switch really messed up Fili in much of the first film. I suspect it is the reason he is barely seen in some parts (Goblin Town, Rivendell).
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Brandybuckled
Menegroth
Nov 9 2015, 4:12pm
Post #8 of 26
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"In my opinion, Blunt the Knives and Goblin Town don't work as they are impromptu songs and tonally clash with the rest."
Maybe they just insert the name of their host in to a song of general improvised mayhem. Seems like a dwarfish thing to do:
Gut the imps and open the shades,
Free the prisoners and give them blades
Stuff the great orcs into crates,
That's what the Great Goblin hates!!
NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented
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LSF
Mithlond
Nov 9 2015, 4:18pm
Post #9 of 26
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I love it and think it perfectly fits the movies. It's a collective Company character establishing thing as well, showing what's been called instinctive teamwork in the latest Chronicles book, which is then on display throughout the movies It also shows how everyone is feeling about the Quest and the adventure to come- upbeat and positive.
I think it perfectly fits the tone, and it's not just "trying to balance book feeling and LOTR movie feeling." This starts out with most of the dwarves ready for an adventure, reclaim a homeland, get some gold... Sounds like fun. They don't know what's coming. But then slowly things start to get real. When Azog nearly catches them at the end of AUJ, they truly understand the real dangers, and things get real. Which leads to the more serious tone in DOS and BOFA. Feels like a good natural progression to me. (Dean O'Gorman pretty much states exactly this in the new Chronicles book too).
I'd much rather have this tone progression than "Hey, this is completely serious business quest, no fun allowed." I think that's why I much prefer these movies over LOTR. There is a sense of fun, even in the more serious two movies. (Though I would not change that in LOTR, it works there).
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KW
Ossiriand
Nov 9 2015, 5:03pm
Post #10 of 26
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I don't like the scene as executed..
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My post was not intended as an edit of the films but as an off the cuff attempt to structure a tighter more "kill your darlings" adaptation of the book. I don't like the OTT handling in the films just on the face of it. In the book I believe the dwarves are just piling the dishes up precariously and carrying them one-handed etc. which I admitted probably isn't very cinematic although I do have second thoughts on that assumption. So It seemed like a good candidate to cut. Likewise I like talking animals and other whimsical elements but I didn't think they would work in the live action approach that I was considering. That is not to say that I want a humorless approach entirely. I thought the talking purse could stay and I would probably prefer a scene with Beorn closer to the book if it could be worked out. And I think some of the "problems" people have with the book such as Gandalf's disappearances and reappearances are opportunities for humor. And generally I'd go for a different tone than the Jackson films. Once it got down to an actual script I think there would be a lot of attention to finding opportunities to fit the lighter stuff into the unity of the approach. But I wasn't really going in that far.
But I would love a cartoon version with talking animals etc. in which such a scene (like the movie version) would probably fit fine. Same for the musical number in goblin town. I think the Jackson films offer brief glimpses of pieces that could work in even a live action film built around that approach but for me it would require a film radically different than the ones that were made. Less all the crude jokes, decapitations, portentous dialogue, grimness, and attempts at being epic..
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KW
Ossiriand
Nov 9 2015, 5:34pm
Post #11 of 26
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I'll put it this way. The structure is not the same as the script.
Structurally, I think an adaptation of the Hobbit should all be one unit, ideally. One film. But there are so many episodes within the plot that you would have to cut a tremendous amount out to get that. So the compromise is to go for two films but reign in all that material with a strong through-line and structural unity for each film. That means eliminating specific scenes or possibly restructuring the order of events to serve that unity but just because you leave a specific book scene out it does not mean that you can't find ways in the film script to achieve the same effect in a manner that better fits in with the limits of your composition. So my wanting to cut has more to do with that thinking than any dislike of whimsy are the original book scene, if that makes sense.
(This post was edited by KW on Nov 9 2015, 5:34pm)
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Ringtir
Ossiriand
Nov 9 2015, 5:42pm
Post #12 of 26
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I love this movie. I love all the childish moments, the funny moments , the dark moments and the emotive moments. All fits perfect for how an adaptation of the Hobbit should be.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Nov 9 2015, 6:29pm
Post #13 of 26
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That IS Dean in the song - I don't think Kazinsky is in the movie at all, though they used the stunt double in several scenes. The reason Dean wasn't in Goblintown & other shots is because he was still involved with a TV series, same reason Jim Nesbitt wasn't with the Dwarves in Erebor.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
Nov 9 2015, 6:29pm
Post #14 of 26
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How much I enjoyed it. I'm one of those people that do not like when people break into songs in movies. So Disney and musicals are obviously high up on my hate list.
However this is of course neither, but I loved it. I found it very charming and it gave us a good picture of the dwarves as a team and rather lovable and amusing. Not just bumbling angry little fellows.
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LSF
Mithlond
Nov 9 2015, 6:33pm
Post #15 of 26
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There's already a discussion on visible Kazinski
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He is still in it, you can tell in the wide shots where Fili is seen from the back or he's in the back of the group, because he is as tall as or taller than Kili. They did refilm the closeups of Fili for Dean in BagEnd,
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Avandel
Gondolin
Nov 9 2015, 7:19pm
Post #17 of 26
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Can't say it's the best for me but...
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I love this movie. I love all the childish moments, the funny moments , the dark moments and the emotive moments. All fits perfect for how an adaptation of the Hobbit should be.
I don't have a best with these films, because all of them have moments I am so glad are forever on film and I would never want to give up . But having watched all 3 over the weekend - not the BOFA EE as still in countdown mode (tho I saw the "premiere") I was feeling kind of wistful, in that IMO from AUJ to DOS to BOFA, AUJ doesn't have that *insane* IMO clipped pace.
(I mean you can see the editing tightening in DOS and I remember all THOSE threads re DOS, - Bwaaaaaah!!!! - how naive I was.  I didn't know what a "short and snappy" pace meant till I saw BOFA. Anyway I felt wistful (AGAIN) that BOFA had not had AUJ's pace, most of the time. As well as a character scene from the book where the dwarves sing to soothe Thorin....)
but not to derail the thread. As for RK shots showing up which is being commented on - the only one I really notice is Misty Mountains and that's only because it was pointed out in TORn. I love watching all the dwarves during "Blunt the Knives" - it's the little moments, Fili tossing plates in the background, when Bifur catches the forks or spins the basin, Nori tossing a whole stack of plates, Bofur's expressions - IMO it's pure joy and really well done.
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Smaug the iron
Mithlond
Nov 9 2015, 9:32pm
Post #18 of 26
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It is a great song and from the book. The films don't need to cut songs from Tolken, it needs more songs from Tolken.
(This post was edited by Smaug the iron on Nov 9 2015, 9:38pm)
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Nargothrond
Nov 9 2015, 10:39pm
Post #19 of 26
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You have summed up my thoughts completely. I love this scene and how it informs us of how in-tune these dwarves are with each other; it makes scenes such as the barrel chase and chariot chase possible and not feel wildly out-of-place.
[To a corpse] "You're looking so well, darling, you really are. They've done a marvelous job. I don't know what sort of cream they've put on you down at the morgue, but I want some."
- The Grand Budapest Hotel
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Nov 9 2015, 10:40pm
Post #20 of 26
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I think the real reason people say Bag End drags on...
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Is because of the intro stuff, particularly the Frodo scene. We spend so much time in Bag End at the start for NO REASON, then when the more necessary scenes come in people are bored of the same scenery and want it to move forward - so by the time the Blunt the Knives song begins the audience thinks "is this going anywhere?" and they blame the song rather than the loooonnnggg pointless intro.
That Frodo scene absolutely kills the movie in my opinion 
(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Nov 9 2015, 10:43pm)
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Nargothrond
Nov 9 2015, 10:52pm
Post #21 of 26
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I hardly think Frodo's appearance kills the entire movie
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But it is definitely one of the my least favorite moments from AUJ.
It's kind of funny to me that so many feel that the Bag End sequences drag on for too long; the amount of time we spend before exiting the Shire in both An Unexpected Journey EE and The Fellowship of the Ring EE is identical (44 minutes). Crazy coincidence and interesting to note, I think.
[To a corpse] "You're looking so well, darling, you really are. They've done a marvelous job. I don't know what sort of cream they've put on you down at the morgue, but I want some."
- The Grand Budapest Hotel
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LSF
Mithlond
Nov 9 2015, 11:05pm
Post #22 of 26
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Yeah, I noticed that too. Though I guess not everything in the AUJ shire stuff was "necessary"... though maybe the same can be said for FOTR. It is an interesting note.
Frodo hardly kills the pacing of the movie, and I think it's a nice way to have enough time with Old Bilbo before we move to Young Bilbo. Gives him someone to talk or narrate to, at least.
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Nargothrond
Nov 9 2015, 11:18pm
Post #23 of 26
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If you think about it, *more* gets done at AUJ's beginning, plot-wise
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When the band of 15 leaves, the quest has been set and all of the major characters (save Bard) have been introduced; in FOTR, we haven't met four of the fellowship and the decision to destroy the ring is still a ways off.
FOTR does provide more essential backstory, though.
[To a corpse] "You're looking so well, darling, you really are. They've done a marvelous job. I don't know what sort of cream they've put on you down at the morgue, but I want some."
- The Grand Budapest Hotel
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Nargothrond
Nov 9 2015, 11:21pm
Post #24 of 26
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My issue with Frodo is more one of placement and cosmetics (I feel it's unnecessary, and he simply does not look like the innocent Frodo who will deteriorate later in the tale). A lot of it is just due to time and Wood aging... not much can be done about that, admittedly.
[To a corpse] "You're looking so well, darling, you really are. They've done a marvelous job. I don't know what sort of cream they've put on you down at the morgue, but I want some."
- The Grand Budapest Hotel
(This post was edited by TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense on Nov 9 2015, 11:23pm)
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Avandel
Gondolin
Nov 9 2015, 11:36pm
Post #25 of 26
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A lot of it is just due to time and Wood aging... not much can be done about that, admittedly.
IMO Wood has wonderful, flawless skin. It's amazing . It's like 10 years didn't happen. Don't know that much COULD be done that his shoulders filled out with adulthood tho, and all that . Unless they put him on a starvation diet or something.
IMO it's a better effect than Legolas, a lot of the time. (But not all the time. Maddeningly IMO sometimes Legolas looks like his own older brother, sometimes like we all stepped back in time, and sometimes just sort of blurry, to me).
But IMO that was how cameos SHOULD be done - a very nice nod, and then on to the main feature. It's not my favorite part of the film, but when I first saw AUJ it was enjoyable and felt right.
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