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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Mar 27 2013, 12:53am
Post #1 of 32
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Azog, a Boldog and envoy of Sauron to a Balrog?
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Just speculation, of course. But, in the movies he seems not to age in the century between Azanulbizar and the time Hobbit time line (granted, he is supposed to be long dead, and living death might have that effect). He is described as the most vile of the orc race. . . which would imply almost certain Boldog (as a type, i.e. a Maiar Demon, far less in might than Sauron or The Balrogs, incarnating as a type of early super orc, though obviously far more powerful, dangerous and potentially sorcerous than a true orc) ancestry, even if we seperate Boldog's as a type of being from true orcs.
It would make a certain sense. It would certainly be fitting for Sauron to send such to Moria to lead his colonization efforts there, as such a being would be more familliar and perhaps better recieved by the Balrog, and might also be better able to bear being in the presence of that more awful, incarnated evil Spirit.
It would also explain why he seems capable of knocking several heavy bodied, heavily armoured dwarves into the air with one swing  lol.
Anyway, just a thought.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Lio
Menegroth
Mar 27 2013, 1:30am
Post #2 of 32
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According to the movie continuity (we are talking about just the movies, right?), the Orcs are corrupted Elves so maybe they just don't age? Or die for that matter. Unless they are killed. Which happens a lot.  Anyway!
That's an interesting theory regarding Azog being a Boldog. The scenes of him knocking away the Dwarves with his mace reminded me of Sauron in the FotR prologue, and this more than anything makes it seem possible to me.
Though, personally, I would prefer it if he were just a regular (although powerful) Orc, acting independently of Sauron and the Balrog. I guess I just like the idea of a great Orc commander who looks out for himself rather than serving someone else. Having him be associated with Sauron, or not really being an Orc at all, would cheapen his character in a way I think. (Did that make sense? I feel like I didn't explain it very well. )
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Mar 27 2013, 1:44am
Post #3 of 32
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The Elf heritage could do it also. But he is more menacing than seems proper
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even for a ruined Elf.
As to the independance. . . The Great Goblin fits that bill. Azog. . . based on the books he would have at the least been a descendant of the orcs sent by Sauron to people Moria. And, no matter where he came from ALL of the orcs in Moria lived by the allowance and a subjects under the terror and power of The Balrog. According to the movie continuity (we are talking about just the movies, right?), the Orcs are corrupted Elves so maybe they just don't age? Or die for that matter. Unless they are killed. Which happens a lot. Anyway! That's an interesting theory regarding Azog being a Boldog. The scenes of him knocking away the Dwarves with his mace reminded me of Sauron in the FotR prologue, and this more than anything makes it seem possible to me. Though, personally, I would prefer it if he were just a regular (although powerful) Orc, acting independently of Sauron and the Balrog. I guess I just like the idea of a great Orc commander who looks out for himself rather than serving someone else. Having him be associated with Sauron, or not really being an Orc at all, would cheapen his character in a way I think. (Did that make sense? I feel like I didn't explain it very well. )
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Lio
Menegroth
Mar 27 2013, 2:04am
Post #4 of 32
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True, I wonder if a part of Azog being so menacing is due to the CGI (intentional or not). He looks somewhat unnatural, but I don't mean fake. The white skin, the small wide-set eyes, the facial expressions... something about it all seems uncanny. He has an almost supernatural presence. But maybe that's just because they're setting him up to be really intimidating, and it might not mean anything more.
I've always wondered about the relationship between the Balrog and the Moria Orcs in the books. I never really got the impression that he ruled over them, more like tolerated their presence. Especially given Azog's words after he kills Thror, declaring himself the king and master. Not something I would say within possible earshot of the Balrog if I were his slave. 
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Mar 27 2013, 3:28am
Post #5 of 32
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Very true about his look. He is especially monstrous at times. As to the relationship. . .
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Tolerance is part of it, yet even that speaks volumes. The great Demon clearly did NOT tolerate the dwarves, yet he allowed the orcs and trolls to flourish. I think it might be fair to say he was dominant and had the mastery, but was not interested in the micro-management of daily supervising, nor in the pomp of setting up a proper court. He knew what they were, who sent them, and why they were there, and he approved at least enough to allow it, so long as they understood who was boss and stayed in their place.
He would have been a great captain under Melkor The Morgoth, but like the lesser Morgul Captain, it is likely that he would be at the rear of battles and not in the fore. He might have driven the orcs in battle with his terror, but he wouldn't go forth as their champion. They were the underlings, not the other way around. As to turning to bay, As the Witch King did at Fornost. . . Glorfindel rode up and drove off the Witch-King . . . there were none to drive off the Balrog. One would hardly expect him to rush out of Moria and chase the victorious dwarves down the mountain side. But he came to the gate and delivered the main message: "You ain't coming in HERE!" lol.
I don't think the title of King would have been a thing he would have stooped to quibbling with an orc over, any more than Sauron or Melkor ever seemed overly troubled by the trash talk of their lesser servants. King, High Aldwin, or Grand Pubah, no matter the title both the Balrog and Azog would have known that the orc captian was no match for the Demon, and that Azog would never be fool enough to test it. One of the companion guides to the first trilogy of films held to the theory that the Balrog would have been akin to a dark god among the orcs, which is likely enough and essentially a true statement of its nature. What do gods, even lesser gods, need to be called king for, among creatures already wholly cowed by and subserviant to them.
Certainly The Balrog would have been a great threat to Lothlorien, as I beileve Tolkien himself once stated as a concern. It is unlikely that even the presence and wards of Galadriel would have turned aside this demon from before the shaping of the world, without a perilous direct confrontation. Yet, we are digressing. lol True, I wonder if a part of Azog being so menacing is due to the CGI (intentional or not). He looks somewhat unnatural, but I don't mean fake. The white skin, the small wide-set eyes, the facial expressions... something about it all seems uncanny. He has an almost supernatural presence. But maybe that's just because they're setting him up to be really intimidating, and it might not mean anything more. I've always wondered about the relationship between the Balrog and the Moria Orcs in the books. I never really got the impression that he ruled over them, more like tolerated their presence. Especially given Azog's words after he kills Thror, declaring himself the king and master. Not something I would say within possible earshot of the Balrog if I were his slave.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Mar 27 2013, 12:58pm
Post #6 of 32
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The moria orc sent the treasures of Moria in tribute to Sauron
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Gandalf say it in the book. Doesn't it prove that their main alliegeance goes to Sauron ?
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 2:01pm
Post #7 of 32
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From memory, isn't it only the Uruk-hai that are ruined Elves? They do look very different from your regular Orcs, and I don't think those are ruined Elves, but a race apart from Elves, Dwarves and the like…
According to the movie continuity (we are talking about just the movies, right?), the Orcs are corrupted Elves so maybe they just don't age? Or die for that matter. Unless they are killed. Which happens a lot. Anyway! |
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Rohirrim Rider
Ossiriand
Mar 27 2013, 2:08pm
Post #8 of 32
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In the movies Saruman explains it thusly:
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"Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers. Tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. Now perfected - my fighting Uruk-Hai"
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Mar 27 2013, 3:57pm
Post #9 of 32
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The Uruk-Hai of Isengard were the result of Saurman breeding orcs and men of Dunland. It was said that of all Saruman's evil actions, this was the most vile (forgot where I read that). I'm not sure we were even given much info on the origins of the Mordor Uruks.
As for the orc race as a whole, Tolkien kept modifying it and changing the story, and so there seem to be lots of inconsistencies regarding this. It's stated in both The Silmarillion and LOTR that orcs were perversions of elves, but Tolkien later wrote that these statements should not be considered definitive, because those making the statements were either guessing (the Eldar in The Silmarillion) or misinformed (Treebeard in LOTR). Tolkien had a strange habit of treating his legendarium as if he himself didn't have all the answers - other examples include his "suspicions" about the Blue Wizards, and the mysteries surrounding Tom Bombadil's origins.
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 4:23pm
Post #10 of 32
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Thank you very much for info. I really must reread the books again when I have time – though I doubt whether I'll ever acquire your level of knowledge. What I have are impressions accumulated over years of rereading the books, though not too many times and not of late. 
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Mar 27 2013, 4:58pm
Post #11 of 32
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although I myself am continuously having to brush up on my knowledge of Tolkien, so I wouldn't say I'm an expert. There are a ton of things I've read from Tolkien's letters, earlier versions, etc. that I have trouble remembering exactly where some of it came from, so I have to keep double-checking my facts
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Mar 27 2013, 5:05pm)
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 6:20pm
Post #12 of 32
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That's more than I have ever done
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I've read LOTR and The Hobbit several times over the years. I certainly haven't read any letters, or any of the other Tolkien books (well, apart from the little ones like Smith of Wootton Major).
The last time I read LOTR was just before the LOTR films came out. I remember being quite disappointed with the FOTR (film) initially, before I 'got it'. Since then I haven't been able to bring myself to read any of the Tolkien books. I think that for me it may be best to see these films without having a detailed knowledge of the books, just impressions of the characters and a basic knowledge of the story. That way I don't feel the need to pick them apart and just enjoy them for what they are, apart from the books – though I would be disappointed at major changes to characters, and the introduction of entirely new characters.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Mar 27 2013, 9:10pm
Post #13 of 32
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You definitely will want to at least read The Silmarillion.
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It gives you a strong cosmological and historical foundation for everything else. I've read LOTR and The Hobbit several times over the years. I certainly haven't read any letters, or any of the other Tolkien books (well, apart from the little ones like Smith of Wootton Major).
The last time I read LOTR was just before the LOTR films came out. I remember being quite disappointed with the FOTR (film) initially, before I 'got it'. Since then I haven't been able to bring myself to read any of the Tolkien books. I think that for me it may be best to see these films without having a detailed knowledge of the books, just impressions of the characters and a basic knowledge of the story. That way I don't feel the need to pick them apart and just enjoy them for what they are, apart from the books – though I would be disappointed at major changes to characters, and the introduction of entirely new characters.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 11:02pm
Post #14 of 32
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I know, I have it on my bookshelves
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I will try to read it soon. 
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imin
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 11:40pm
Post #15 of 32
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Though hopefully a nice one
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 11:48pm
Post #16 of 32
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I know it's a complex work, but I think what has put me off so far is that it wasn't published in Tolkien's lifetime and was put together by someone else. Perhaps in the back of my mind I'm a bit suspicious about it…
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Mar 27 2013, 11:53pm
Post #17 of 32
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It reads a bit by the Bible, but re-reading it through in its entirety, it is actually
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a quite cohesive and linear work. It is heavy reading, but not terribly difficult once you know what you are dealing with. It is told largely in the rather straight forward way of some folktales. Far fewer moment to moment details and dialogue than a novel, but the story comes through clearly and powerfully. I know it's a complex work, but I think what has put me off so far is that it wasn't published in Tolkien's lifetime and was put together by someone else. Perhaps in the back of my mind I'm a bit suspicious about it…
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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imin
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 11:54pm
Post #18 of 32
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But then most don't realize when they first read it that it has no hobbits for example or has a very different writing style about it.
I really hope you enjoy it, it is one of my favourite of Tolkien's works.
Another good one if you are interested is the Children of Hurin set in the first age.
I wouldn't worry about it being edited by his Son - he was appointed by his father (JRR Tolkien) to do this kinda thing if C.Tolkien felt inclined and does a good job - put his life into it really.
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Glorfindela
Doriath
Mar 27 2013, 11:58pm
Post #19 of 32
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When I flick through it, it does look biblical. I am, however, used to editing academic works and such, so it's not the book's complexity that bothers me – and certainly not the fact that it doesn't contain Hobbits.
I will try to set aside some time to read it soon…
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Mar 28 2013, 12:04am
Post #20 of 32
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I recommand you to keep a beleriand map not far from your sight while you read it. I bought the atlas of middle earth and re-read it with maps at my side, and it was sooo much clearer. the stories weren't even hard to follow anymore
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Lio
Menegroth
Mar 28 2013, 12:05am
Post #21 of 32
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I think we are mostly in agreement
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That is, the Balrog was definitely the dominant force in Moria but didn't particularly care about lording it over the Orcs. And he certainly didn't owe it to them to participate in their wars! The rest of your analysis is an interesting read as well.
Actually, I kind of wonder just what the Balrog was up to in Moria all these years. As far as I can remember from what I've read he never made any moves after the Dwarves were driven out. Was he just chilling or biding his time for some other purpose? But like you said we are digressing. 
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Lio
Menegroth
Mar 28 2013, 12:15am
Post #22 of 32
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Really? I must have completely forgotten this detail
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Will definitely have to look it up!
But I still have this impression that the Orcs of the Misty Mountains are mostly independent, having their own kingdoms and such. They could still form an alliance with Sauron without being completely subject to him. So I don't really consider them his servants, at least not to the same extent that the Orcs of Mordor are his servants. (I hope that made sense. )
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Mar 28 2013, 12:26am
Post #23 of 32
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It's in the chapter "A journey in the dark", a couple of pages before they arrive at Balin's tomb, and Gandalf is telling the story of the dwarves of khazad dum :
"The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from wich they fled, Durin's Bane. Of what they brought to light the Orcs have gathered nearly all, and given it in tribute to Sauron, who covets it."
Just before this passage there a line about treasures still presents in the depths of Moria, untouch by any partly because of the Balrog. It could be seen as a place were the Balrog is the undisputed lord and thos jewels would be his ? Here's the line :
"And since the dwarves fled, no one dares to seek the shafts and treasuries down in the deep places: they are drowned in water - or in a shadow of fear."
That's what's in the book that i happened to have near me, I let you and Ainur Olorin do your own conclusions from this material !
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Fàfnir
Nargothrond
Mar 28 2013, 12:42am
Post #24 of 32
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Even the orcs of Mordor used to be more independant before the rise of Sauron, but they are attracted by his dark powers.
There is a bit of Shagrat and Gorbag's discution were they remember with nostalgia the "good old days" when they were easy loot and "no big bosses" or something like that. The thing is, orcs are Sauron's slaves, weither they like it or not (and it's more likely they don't like it), so sooner or later every orc of middle earth would have had the same status as mordor orcs, but the further they were or Sauron, the easier they would have kept a relative independance.
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Lio
Menegroth
Mar 28 2013, 12:50am
Post #25 of 32
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But now it makes me wonder whether the Balrog himself approved of the Orcs sending away all that treasure. Was he in an alliance with Sauron too? Or maybe he just didn't care? Hmm. Mystery!
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