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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 15 2015, 11:13pm
Post #51 of 61
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1. Okay, we know from The Hobbit that Durin's Folk, the House of Durin, are also known as the Longbeards. Also that their capital before the founding of Erebor was Moria (Khazad-dûm).
2. In Appendix A from The Lord of the Rings, we first read of the Dwarf-cities of Belegost and Nogrod in the Ered Luin. The essay "Durin's Folk" repeats that Moria was the first city of the Longbeards, founded by Durin the Deathless. We then learn:After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim.
Moria endured until the waking of the Balrog that came to be know as Durin's Bane. Durin VI and his son Náin were slain by the Balrog and the Dwarves were driven out of Moria. Most fled North where Thráin I founded Erebor. Others may have returned to the Blue Mountains, but Tolkien doesn't specify this.
Some years after Erebor was taken by the dragon Smaug, Thrór came to Moria and was murdered and his body defiled by Azog, kicking off the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. Nár, Thror's companion brought word to Thráin II:Thráin at once sent messengers bearing the tale, north, east, and west; but it was three years before the Dwarves had mustered their strength. Durin's Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the Houses of other Fathers...
After the Battle of Azanulbizar, Thrain and Thorin led their people west of the Misty Mountains and established their Halls on the east side of the Northern Ered Luin, "beyond the Lune." And we have a notation at the bottom of the genealogical table for the Line of Durin:Of the other companions of Thorin Oakenshield in the journey to Erebor Ori, Nori, and Dori were also of the House of Durin, and more remote kinsmen of Thorin: Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur were descended from Dwarves of Moria but were not of Durin's line.
In other words: Bifur, Bofur and Bombur were not of Durin's Folk, a.k.a. the House of Durin, a,k.a. the Longbeards.
3. Appendix B, "The Tale of Years," simply notes for year 40 of the Second Age: "Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers."
4. There is relatively little about the Seven Houses of the Dwarves in The Silmarillion. We learn of the creation of the Naugrim and of how the Vala Aulë "took the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves, and laid them to rest in far-sundered places" to wait until the wakening of the Firstborn. And again we learn of Durin, whose halls were at Khazad-dûm. We still don't gat any names for the other Six Houses of the Dwarves, but we start to learn more about Nogrod and Belegost:It came to pass during the second age of the captivity of Melkor that Dwarves came over the Blue Mountains of Ered Luin into Beleriand. Themselves they named Khazâd, but the Sindar called them Naugrim, the Stunted People, and Gonnhirrim, Masters of Stone. Far to the east were the most ancient dwellings of the Naugrim, but they had delved for themselves great halls and mansions, after the manner of their kind, in the eastern side of Ered Luin; and those cities were named in their own tongue Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar. To the north of the great height of Mount Dolmed was Gabilgathol, which the Elves interpreted in their tongue Belegost, that is Mickleburg; and southward was delved Tumunzahar, by the Elves named Nogrod, the Hollowbold. Greatest of all mansions of the Dwarves was Khazad-dûm, the Dwarrowdelf, Hadhodrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards in the days of its darkness called Moria; but it was far off in the Mountains of Mist beyond the wide leagues of Eriador,and to the Eldar came but as a name and a rumour from the words of the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains.
Much is made of the dealings between the Naugrim and the Elves of Beleriand. The Dwarves of Belegost maintained good relations especially with Doriath under King Thingol and Melian,delving the Thousand Caves of Menegroth and receiving generous payment, including many pearls. By contrast, the Dwarves of Nogrod were contracted to work the Silmaril given to King Thingol by Beren into the Nauglamír which did not go se well and ended with the murder of Thingol, the sack of Doriath, and the destruction of a great host of the Dwarves of Nogrod. While Naugrim could be found on both sides of the Wars of Beleriand, the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod mostly sided with the Elves.
To be continued...
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Nov 15 2015, 11:15pm
Post #52 of 61
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So, if I'm reading this right, only one nephew? Only Kili? Hmm, well, that would be different, but I personally probably wouldn't care for that. Some other people might like the enhanced role for Gloin and Ori - I certainly wouldn't mind that part. But I felt like Thorin's role was already pretty well-developed, and I'm not sure how much bigger it can really get without crowding out Bilbo. Also felt that Dwalin & Balin were already pretty well-developed, of course it could be bigger but I'm not sure that would add that much to the story. Sounds like you would be changing Bofur's personality substantially & leaving all the comic relief to Bombur - well that would probably be alright. I certainly wouldn't complain about keeping the more OTT Legolas & Alfrid to a minimum (or cut Alfrid altogether), or cutting the "love story" and making the Kili/Tauriel relationship more of a friendship.
It's an interesting concept you've got, and I agree that people who haven't read the book wouldn't really care if there were only 8 Dwarves. So the only remaining question would be just how many book fans would be alienated by this, and if the story was strong enough to overcome that alienation. It possibly could, if enough explanation was given for the reasons behind such a change. Of course, no matter what decision Peter ultimately made, there would be some people complaining about it. For better or worse, we got the movies we got and for the most part I really like them. Now, over Thanksgiving holiday I intend to do a two-day, six-movie ME marathon, and maybe then I will get a little more insight into your suggestions about the Hobbit movies being closer stylistically and tonally to the LoTR movies. I'll get back with you on that....
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 16 2015, 12:38am
Post #53 of 61
(460 views)
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Dwarves of the Blue Mountains (continued)
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5. From Unfinished Tales onward, our sources become less reliable as Professor Tolkien starts to rethink his ideas and they begin to contradict what has been already published. The "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" notes:
There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon [Ered Luin], where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been--not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm. Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and he never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath; but it was the host of Nogrod that took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle of Sarn Athrad. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm. Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.
It is probably worth noting that the city of Nogrod was never assailed by the Elves and any survivors from Nogrod from the fall of Thrangorodrim presumably also migrated to Moria unless they resettled elsewhere in the Blue Mountains.
6. It isn't until we reach The Book of Lost Tales 2 that we read of the Indrafangs (and variants of the name). On page 69:
The Indravangs (Indrafangs in the typescript) are the 'Longbeards'; this is said in the Gnomish dictionary to be 'a special name of the Nauglath or Dwarves' (see futher the Tale of the Nauglafring, p. 249).
The Tale of the Nauglafring:
Then arose one from among the company, and that was Ufedhin, a Gnome; but more had he wandered about the world than any of the king's folk, and long had he dwelt with the Nauglath and the Indrafangs their kin.
Here, Nauglath seems to be a reference specifically to the Dwarves of Nogrod. The Indrafangs (Longbeards) might presumably be their kin in Belegost. Naugladur as named as the Lord of the Dwarves of Nogrod. Messages are received from Bodruith of the Indrafangs, "a kindred of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms." The tale has the Nauglath joined by both Orcs and the Indrafangs in the sack of Artanor (later renamed Doriath). These were all early writings of Tolkien and I do not think that too much importance should be given to them in the context of his legendarium. Yes, they place the Indrafangs in the Dwarf-city of Belegost, but the location of Belegost itself is questionable, whether it is meant to be near to Nogrod or a far-away realm. The Dwarves of Belegost were later cleared of any complicity in the sack of Doriath. And later writings suggest that the Longbeards would instead become the House of Durin that dwelt in the Misty Mountains at Khazad-dûm, making a different kindred of Dwarves the founders of Belegost.
7. Which brings us to The People of Middle-earth (a book that is not in my possession). Here, Tolkien finally provided names for all Seven Houses of the Dwarves and roughly indicated the locations their realms. We have:
- The Longbeards, Durin's Folk, originally from Gundabad, with dwellings in Khazad-dûm, Erebor, the Grey Mountains and the Iron Hills.
- The Firebeards and Broadbeams, originally from Nogrod and Belegost.
- The Ironfists and Stiffbeards, from the Orocarni in the distant East.
- The Blacklocks and Stonefoots, also from the Orocarni, but perhaps from a different part of the range.
I tend to associate the Firebeards with the Dwarves of Nogrod; this makes it seem more likely to me that Bifur, Bofur and Bombur were Broadbeams, descended from the Dwarves of Belegost.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Nov 16 2015, 6:35am
Post #54 of 61
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I am really not sure how much the film makers and Warner could have relied on "Book Fans" to determine the commercial risks of saying have 8 Dwarves. In the end these films were franchise movies built on Sir Peter's reputation with the LOTR and that was the key positioning.
However and I will tie this together with your remark about fan fiction. I only become "creative" after I had shaken out what I felt was a diversion and unnecessary to tell the story. At that point the T E was 280 minutes long. When I began looking at ways of strengthening the narrative I always looked to Tolkien for the solution three examples ;-
1) Thorins encounter with the Dragon was dramatically crucial the ideas I came up with where "inspired" by the Glaurung/Turin encounter.
2) In the films Gandalf meets Thorin at the Prancing Pony and sets in motion the quest that he will accompany Thorin on . Nothing is made of the dramatic consequences of this change. So when in my narrative as the company approach Mirkwood Radagast suddenly appears from Rivendell with a message from Galadriel, and Gandalf at this point has found out the nine have broken their bonds and Bolg is abroad with knowledge of Thrain the ring bearer, Gandalf's decision to dash South with Radagast has the same dramatic tension and echoes his departure from Dol Baron after the appearance of the Nazgul. Rather than the curious remembering what Galadriel said about the High Fells which he passed many days ago.It will also lead down to an encounter with Thrain, whom he had promised, when Thrain gave him the map and the key, to travel to the mountain with Thorin.
3) Something that would allay Book Fan anxieties however is I return to the book for the prosecution of the battle. Bard with his militia, Thranduil and Dain prosecute the battle together and in front of Erebor until Thorins breakout which then introduces the heroic dash to the Ravenhill Bolg seemingly isolated and now behind enemy lines with the Ravenhill in its AUJ (not book) and early BOFA position rather than very long chariot ride south into the basin of Erebor.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 16 2015, 6:41am)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Nov 17 2015, 3:30am
Post #55 of 61
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It's possible that the film makers don't have to worry about book fans - you describe PJ's story as "slavishly" following to the book, yet many "book fans" hate the movies anyway. There's no way one movie will please everyone, especially not movies that are based on a beloved book. However, the further you get from the book, the more alienated fans will become. I still think that cutting the number of Dwarves would be a mistake. I once watched a Syfy movie about the Minotaur legend (mostly because of Tom Hardy), and for some reason they only had 8 people taken to Minos instead of 12. Now, maybe you didn't really NEED 12 victims to tell the story, but it still felt like a cheap production. And I still don't see how having 5 Dwarves standing in the background with no lines would be any different than Bard or Dain having a bunch of their people standing behind them with no lines. But the rest of your story sound interesting, and of course, depending on how it's told I might not miss them so much.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Omnigeek
Menegroth
Nov 17 2015, 5:09am
Post #56 of 61
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Sorry but equating line of Durin with Durin's Folk is ridiculous. What Gimli laid down for Elessar was a lineage of succession. Unless you contend the 500 dwarves that accompanied Dain from the Iron Hills were also not of Durin's Folk since there's nowhere near 500 names on that lineage chart?
Lost Tales Part 2 is pretty clear on Indrafang = Longbeards = Dwarves of Belegost although Christopher Tolkien does point out these are older revisions (hence some of the name changes).
It is far more likely that Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur were Durin's Folk not in the line of succession than Thorin would invite Dwarves of another House to share in a substantial (over 20%) share of Thror's hoard. Of course, Bilbo was invited for an equal share too but his part in the adventure was regarded (albeit with some persuasion from Gandalf) as almost essential and he wasn't part of a House that had created a blood feud with the Longbeards.
As far as LSF's question about what I want, I enjoyed the movies as movies. I actually liked the effort to tie it in better with the LOTR films for the benefit of people who haven't read the books and therefore understand the change in tone. I understood the need to quicken the pace of the story as most audiences wouldn't appreciate the weeks spent in the Woodland King's dungeon or the days spent recuperating in Lake-town much less the days inside the goblin tunnels of MIrkwood. I just would have preferred not having the erstwhile Dwarf-Elf love triangle or the stupid Azog subplot and that the dwarves look like dwarves (is it too much to ask that the nominative leader of the Longbeards actually have a long beard or show his age?). The costuming and styling of the dwarves in this trilogy were as cringe-worthy (for me) as the ugly Elves in the Rankin-Bass cartoon (especially the nearly Grinch-like depiction of the Elf King) that I think actually did a better job of preserving the essence of the story.
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Michelle Johnston
Mithlond
Nov 17 2015, 9:35am
Post #57 of 61
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If I have your right your saying 5 extras with 8 character Dwarves would work for you. I think that could work and indeed thats effectively what we received in film 2 and 3.
When i was studying this matter several months ago you find the extras are rarely in shot. If the Bag End Party had silhouettes and over the shoulder shots rather like how they handled the original Fili shots that would work. My concern then would be in the intense pre action shots (Bilbo reporting on Beorn) where they just look like baggage and thats really noticeable in 3D.
What I am sure would have happened if you had great films a Dwarven Centric story really putting the 8 in the centre of the story telling people would have moaned about the non speakers.Then I would argue go read the book.
You can have both Fili and KIli murdered in front of Thorin but I am not seeing how that increases the drama or sense of loss, when only ones story is told. In fact I am sure part of the logic behind the Tauriel on the Ravenhill was to avoid that and split their deaths apart .
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Nov 17 2015, 9:37am)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 17 2015, 1:09pm
Post #58 of 61
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Sorry but equating line of Durin with Durin's Folk is ridiculous. What Gimli laid down for Elessar was a lineage of succession. Unless you contend the 500 dwarves that accompanied Dain from the Iron Hills were also not of Durin's Folk since there's nowhere near 500 names on that lineage chart?
I did NOT equate the Line of Durin with Durin's Folk. It is the HOUSE of Durin that has the same meaning as the phrase Durin's Folk, a.k.a. the Longbeards. Dori, Nori and Ori were identified as belonging to the House of Durin. Bifur, Bofur and Bombur were not.
Lost Tales 2 may be clear, but that doesn't mean that it remains accurate. There are many, many things in the contents of that book that were greatly altered in Tolkien's later writings. Most notably, The People of Middle-earth does not place the Longbeards in the Ered Luin before Thráin II and his surviving followers founded a colony there.
Why shouldn't the 'furs expect full shares of the treasure as long as they prove trustworthy and loyal? Even including them, Thorin could only assemble a company of thirteen Dwarves, whether they were all Longbeards or not. And Oakenshield had dwelt in the Ered Luin for many years; who is to say that he wasn't well acquainted with a good number of Blue Mountain Dwarves?
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Nov 18 2015, 1:38am
Post #59 of 61
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"You can have both Fili and KIli murdered in front of Thorin but I am not seeing how that increases the drama or sense of loss, when only ones story is told. In fact I am sure part of the logic behind the Tauriel on the Ravenhill was to avoid that and split their deaths apart."
Yeah that's probably correct about Tauriel, and book fans are mostly up in arms about it. I personally would have preferred the movie NOT go down that road. Other than that I really enjoyed the Ravenhill fight, and particularly could see Kili just losing it and charging up the hill enraged, which was what Azog wanted all along. Some people didn't like that Kili didn't mourn Fili, but I think that is actually a very common reaction in a real battlefield situation. If you only had one nephew, then I suppose Thorin would be the one charging up the hill for revenge, which is essentially what he was doing when he squared off with Azog after getting Orchrist back.
I confess, one of the problems I'm having with the idea of cutting the Dwarves is the fact that I've already seen 13 of them. Yes, I'm one of the people complaining that half of the 13 Dwarves, which were so successfully presented in Bag End, were reduced to non-speaking extras. Although I hadn't read the book in years, like the Minotaur I'm familiar enough with the story that I would have noticed fewer dwarves, and I'm sure some people would say "well he cut the characters and put all the money into CGI." I think that book fans would still feel that it was a cheap move on PJ's part, but as we've both acknowledged someone is going to complain no matter what PJ did. Well, we got the movies we got, so this is all conjecture. There's no way either one of us will know for sure.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Omnigeek
Menegroth
Nov 18 2015, 6:57am
Post #60 of 61
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You cited the line "not of Durin's line" as equivalent to saying they weren't Durin's Folk. Tolkien was pretty precise or particular in his language -- if he meant they weren't Durin's Folk, he would have said that. The lineage chart shows simply those who had lineage from Durin and therefore claim to the throne -- even spouses aren't shown or mentioned.
Tolkien altered details in Lost Tales but it still remains more accurate than undocumented speculations. The only documentation we have on Bofur, Bifur, and Bombur is that they were descended from the Dwarves of Moria meaning they were most probably Durin's Folk albeit not of royal lineage. I realize you'd like to think they were descended from Broadbeams; I'll concede that's a possibility albeit somewhat far-fetched IMO. Regardless, I still maintain the costumes were ridiculous (although nowhere near as bad as the Elf-Dwarf love triangle).
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 18 2015, 12:54pm
Post #61 of 61
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What I typed was:
In other words: Bifur, Bofur and Bombur were not of Durin's Folk, a.k.a. the House of Durin, a,k.a. the Longbeards.
Because Tolkien differentiated between the trio of Ori, Dori and Nori and the other trio of Bifur, Bofur and Bombur--neither of which appear on the table for the Line of Durin--my conclusion is that the 'furs are also not part of the House of Durin, aka the Longbeards. That would also exclude them from the Line of Durin, but that is a separate issue that I did not address.
I will certainly grant that there is room for more than one interpretation of Tolkien's footnote. However, I see no other good reason to set Bifur, Bofur and Bombur apart in the manner that he did. I also don't see what is so far-fetched about the Broadbeams maintaining their clan identity after relocating to Moria. It is no different from a population of Jews or some other minority maintaining their ethnic identity among a larger population.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 18 2015, 12:57pm)
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