|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
W1tchK1nG
The Shire
May 26 2014, 10:07pm
Post #1 of 24
(968 views)
Shortcut
|
The Vilest Traitor ???
|
Can't Post
|
|
Who do you think was the most dishonourable, disgusting and shameful traitor of both fiction and history !!! Judge by the damage brought !!! Tell me if I forgot someone
|
|
|
DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 26 2014, 10:14pm
Post #2 of 24
(803 views)
Shortcut
|
But not because I am religious. I just believe that what Judas did was more brutal than anyone else on that list I know. I do not consider Maeglin's betrayal to be the worst because it was based on love for Idril, even if it was jealous or misplaced. Judas acted on greed. These to me make a big difference in how I think about these people. Also Maeglin was born into a broken home with a corrupt father who was a bad example. Judas has no such excuse.
|
|
|
DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 26 2014, 10:17pm
Post #3 of 24
(797 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I don't know if I consider Brutus a traitor.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
He thought what he was doing was right for Rome. He thought Caesar was corrupt.
|
|
|
DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
May 26 2014, 10:18pm
Post #4 of 24
(804 views)
Shortcut
|
He betrayed the American patriots to the British.
|
|
|
Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
May 26 2014, 10:29pm
Post #5 of 24
(799 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The view might look different from the other side of the Pond...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Technically, he was a war hero to the British. Just sayin' 
|
|
|
Kim
Valinor
May 27 2014, 1:09am
Post #7 of 24
(788 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I was just thinking about this today
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
as I've been reading the John Adams biography, and the Revolutionary War is top of mind at the moment. Last year, when I got to visit London for the first time, I took a bus tour and spotted one of those blue "so and so lived here" plaques on the side of a building. It was for Benedict Arnold, and my first thought was "Hey, why are they commemorating where that traitor lived!?" then, "Oh, right, the British put that up".
|
|
|
IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 27 2014, 2:04am
Post #8 of 24
(787 views)
Shortcut
|
I would have voted for Maeglin, but you really can't top Judas. I mean, his name is literally synonymous with betrayal...
|
|
|
Meneldor
Valinor
May 27 2014, 2:26am
Post #9 of 24
(789 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Last month in our church's annual passion play, I was Judas.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Very little is actually known about him or his motivations, save that "Satan entered into him." I don't believe he asked for money to betray Jesus; the way I read the story, it seems like the priests offered the silver to buy his loyalty. Remember that people don't think of themselves as traitors or villains and that he very likely believed he was doing the right thing. Jesus chose him to be one of the twelve apostles. He travelled with the others, sat at the master's feet, learned and worked among them, and none of them thought he was different. Also remember that when the death sentence was passed on Jesus, he repented and returned the 30 pieces of silver to the priests, asking forgiveness for the blood of a righteous man. He was so distraught by what he had done that he hanged himself.
And then his guts spilled out onto the ground. Was God saying something about the state of this spirit when He made that happen?
So in the play, his motivation was to force Jesus into action against the Romans. This version of Judas was a zealot who wanted to free Israel from Roman oppression, and he was expecting the Messiah to physically strike down the oppressors and take the throne of David as the new king of Israel. After 3 years of preaching and healing, Judas was impatient for the revolution to begin, and he knew Jesus was capable of divine power, so he put him in a position where Judas assumed he would have to fight to free himself. He just couldn't understand that Jesus had a different plan that didn't involve worldly politics.
|
|
|
IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 27 2014, 3:05am
Post #10 of 24
(769 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I've actually never heard that take on Judas
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That's really interesting to think that he was trying to force Jesus' hand. It makes a lot of sense; most of the people of Israel at the time really couldn't accept the idea of a spiritual kingdom when they wanted a physical kingdom and power over their oppressors (which I'm sure is how most people would feel).
From what I've read and heard over the years, I believe it was the woman with the alabaster jar who pushed Judas over the edge. When Jesus defended her actions for "wasting" money on Him, Judas decided it was time to hand him over. I can't remember if this is actually in the Gospels or not, but I'm pretty sure Judas had been stealing from the collection for the poor, since he was the one who held the money bag.
It's definitely true that no one is a villain in their own eyes. Really, it was the priests and leaders of the people who were much worse. Even when Judas repented they offered him nothing. It always kind of astounded me. Here they are, the religious leaders. A man comes to them and confesses that he betrayed an innocent man and they essentially reply, "That's your problem." Pretty horrific from the leaders who are supposed to help you be a better person.
Sorry for the long post. I got a little carried away. :)
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 27 2014, 4:10am
Post #12 of 24
(781 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Judas did the job he was assigned to do.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Jesus said one of the apostles would betray him. When asked which, he pointed out Judas, and said, "What you are going to do, do quickly." It was necessary for him to be betrayed and killed for his mission to be accomplished.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 27 2014, 4:30am
Post #13 of 24
(771 views)
Shortcut
|
Many (e.g., Brutus) sincerely believed they were doing the right thing. If you're looking for Men in Tolkien, Maeglin was an Elf. If we include Elves, some of the Sons of Fëonor were pretty evil, especially Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin.* If you allow maiar, surely Sauron was more evil than Saruman? Not much for evil Men: Wormtongue was a tool of Saruman, and Bill Ferny a small-time hood.
*Easy rule to keep track of the Sons: C-sons bad; M-sons tormented and equivocal; A-sons mostly irrelevant.
|
|
|
IdrilLalaith
Rivendell
May 27 2014, 6:27pm
Post #14 of 24
(745 views)
Shortcut
|
He was the one who betrayed Barahir to Sauron. Of course, he was tricked into it. The narrator treats him with pity.
There's also the Easterlings (whose names escape me) that betrayed the Elven armies during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
|
|
|
Annael
Elvenhome
May 28 2014, 3:56pm
Post #16 of 24
(706 views)
Shortcut
|
I've heard it before, that Judas truly believed that Jesus had the power to destroy the Romans and was just trying to force Jesus' hand in a way. He didn't get it when Jesus kept telling him that the Kingdom of God was not an earthly kingdom. (Sadly, there are still followers of Jesus who don't get this either.) When he realized the enormity of his error, he killed himself. It was never about the money.
Also, if it was always God's plan for Jesus to die, someone had to take the fall.
I didn't answer the poll. I remember a bit from Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness where the King of Karhide asks the rulers of the Ekumen "what makes a man a traitor" and they reply that they don't know, because the person who commits the traitorous act almost never thinks of themselves as a traitor, and that makes it hard to find out.
I guess I'd vote for anyone who thinks it's okay to hurt another person. That's a betrayal of a sacred covenant we all should have with each other, imho.
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
May 31 2014, 5:05pm
Post #17 of 24
(691 views)
Shortcut
|
It was his brother, man!
|
|
|
Magpie
Immortal
May 31 2014, 5:55pm
Post #18 of 24
(696 views)
Shortcut
|
|
This article just got posted on io9 yesterday
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
14 Characters Who Prove There Are Way Too Many Cains, Kanes, Etc.
"When Cain murdered his brother Abel in the first book of the Bible, did he realize that he was turned his name into pop culture cliché? Probably not; he was busy murdering his brother, after all. Now Cain — and Kane, Caine, Kayne, and all other spellings — is among the most overused character name ever. Here are just a few of the villains, antiheroes, and assholes bearing the mark of Cain (and Kaine, and Caine, etc.)."
|
|
|
DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Jun 2 2014, 10:40pm
Post #19 of 24
(678 views)
Shortcut
|
I just saw this and I totally missed the connection to this topic. Nice job.
|
|
|
Loresilme
Valinor
Jun 9 2014, 6:03pm
Post #20 of 24
(658 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I read that in a fictional book many years ago
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
his motivation was to force Jesus into action against the Romans
called "I, Judas" by Taylor Caldwell.
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 10 2014, 10:09pm
Post #21 of 24
(640 views)
Shortcut
|
Well perhaps he was trying to force Jesus into action, BUT I've never really seen it that way. I can't find the verse now, but there was an agrument between the disciples as to which of them would be "the greatest," and Jesus said something like the least among you will be the greatest, and then he washed all their feet. It was after that when Judas went to the temple and offered to turn in Jesus. I think at that point he was disillusioned, and thought he had joined the wrong team. Perhaps he even felt "betrayed" by Jesus, since he (Judas) wanted to see the Romans out of Judea and Herod off the throne.
But was he the most vile villian? I don't know, if he hadn't betrayed Jesus the prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled; it was kind of necessary so I can't go there. I have to go with Hitler, yeah this is historical opposed to literary, but I can't imagine being worse than that. Fiction has nothing on history.
|
|
|
DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Jun 10 2014, 10:13pm
Post #22 of 24
(655 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Unless you believe Judas was a real person.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Which is hard to say. I am sure Christians believe he exist but as someone who is not Christian I cant say. There is no record of any such person...
|
|
|
Cuwen Maegmacil
Rivendell
Jun 19 2014, 4:34am
Post #23 of 24
(613 views)
Shortcut
|
Was totally thinkin' Maeglin but saw Judas and realized we weren't just talkin' about fictional characters! Gotta go with Judas!
|
|
|
joec_34
Rivendell
Jun 23 2014, 4:54pm
Post #24 of 24
(617 views)
Shortcut
|
This take on Judas doesn't seem very likely. The gospels clearly claim that he had been skimming money from their treasury--indicating that he wasn't really on board with Jesus and the other disciples. It is a lot more likely that he thought that Jesus might be the messiah, and wanted to be in a good position if he did organize a rebellion. Rather than forcing Jesus' hand; it seems that he sold him out when he became convinced that Jesus wasn't going to lead a political revolution. Also, the Bible makes a distinction between repentence and remorse. What Judas showed was remorse; what Peter did (after denying connections to Jesus) was repent.
|
|
|
|
|
