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Annael
Elvenhome
Jul 15 2025, 9:10pm
Post #1 of 10
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interesting article about online groups
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and how they can seem to self-sabotage, but he says the fault isn't with the people, it's inherent in the group structure. I've witnessed pretty much everything he talks about in my 25 years on this forum.
https://everything2.com/...e+Community+Dynamics
Written pre-Zoom meetings; I wonder what he would say about them!
Full disclosure: he lost me about halfway through. I don't think I was his intended audience. And yes, he spells Tolkien wrong.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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squire
Half-elven
Jul 16 2025, 3:15am
Post #2 of 10
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It dates from 2003 - just about when TORn was getting going
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What I noticed was how well TORn's subject-segregated message boards technology, and top-down moderation overseen by the PTB directors, prevented TORn from melting down or falling apart in the ways that Shirky asserted were almost inevitable in a social media platform in 2003.
For instance, he makes fun of 'Tolkein' fan groups as being a good example of the crippling 'religious' instinct in human/social media groups. But from my perspective and memory, TORn did not tolerate the flaming of anyone who questioned the length of The Two Towers or criticized the Prof's love of extense descriptions of his natural settings.
Shirky admits that some Tolkein groups ("in some places" are his words) tolerate open discussions that criticize their focused topic/ author/ ideology/ religion, but he asserts blandly that "in most places" they simply did not.
OK, but TORn has always been the former exceptional case, I think. And that's due to the mods and the core members (his 'users', compared to less involved 'members', in his terminology) being honestly interested in actually discussing the Prof rather than worshipping him, as it were.
I would be curious to read an update of this essay that considered the further advances in social media in the past 22 years. For instance, as we've noticed on this site, the threaded message-board format that TORn features seems to have lost its appeal compared to the running newsfeed format of sites like Facebook. But I find the newsfeed frustrating - for many of the reasons Shirky identifies in 2003: lack of continuity, inability to easily coordinate and return to a conversation, difficulty in distinguishing ones users from ones members, in his terms.
Thanks for the link, Annael!
squire online:
Unfortunately my longtime internet service provider abandoned its hosting operations last year. I no longer have any online materials to share with the TORn community.
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 16 2025, 5:56pm
Post #3 of 10
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Some observations are timeless
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even in an article written when "Google" wasn't a common verb yet, and no one used Facebook or Twitter.
So even if someone isn't really your enemy, identifying them as an enemy can cause a pleasant sense of group cohesion. And groups often gravitate towards members who are the most paranoid and make them leaders, because those are the people who are best at identifying external enemies.
And what was true in 1978 is true today (and some boys never grow up):
And who, in 1978, was hanging out in the room with the computer and the modems in it, but the boys of that high school. And the boys weren't terribly interested in sophisticated adult conversation. They were interested in fart jokes. They were interested in salacious talk. They were interested in running amok and posting four-letter words and nyah-nyah-nyah, all over the bulletin board.
Interesting read--thanks for sharing it.
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Annael
Elvenhome
Jul 16 2025, 7:46pm
Post #4 of 10
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was not boys making fart jokes (although a lot of us were guilty of puns & "pants" threads), but young teen girls who only wanted to gush about Legolas.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Annael
Elvenhome
Jul 16 2025, 7:53pm
Post #5 of 10
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reminds me of my experiences with two other boards
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one was televisionwithoutpity, which posted recaps of pretty much every current show on TV and had a discussion board dedicated to pretty much every show that had ever been on TV. It was intensely moderated (you could not offer unsolicited advice or say "you people" without getting banned), and as a result, the discussion remained at a high level of wit and insight. I was so sad when the people running it burned out - can't imagine how much work it took! - and closed it down. Have not found its like again.
On the other hand, I participated on a board supposedly dedicated to spirituality that was not moderated and quickly devolved into the worst flame wars I've ever witnessed. Most of us fled, leaving the most virulent posters in possession.
I do think TORN has done a good job of keeping the conversation civil.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jul 21 2025, 2:48am
Post #6 of 10
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in recent news site browsings...
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in recent news site browsings, i found reference to a study / report that stated that online trolls tended towards the antisocial (in the clinical sense) and psychopathic. (please note, i haven't read the article, but only have made a mental note to bookmark it and return to it).
that roughly tracks... there are people who truly get off on provoking negative reactions in others. quite non-empathetic. this type of person / motivation is very hard for "normies" to understand.
fascinating subject, annael -- thank you for casting light on it. : )
cheers ---
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 22 2025, 9:29pm
Post #7 of 10
(3355 views)
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that normies can easily forget is that a troll will argue any position just to stir up a fight when it may not be their view at all, they just want to provoke everyone and the *get popcorn* and watch in their perverted little way. When you're normal, you usually mean what you say and otherwise keep quiet. I hate it when I fall for ragebait, but sometimes I still do.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jul 25 2025, 11:41pm
Post #8 of 10
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hallo, cg : )
yep, i have read / heard (and observed) this as well. i think that's also the mechanism by which psychopaths can manipulate others.... normies just don't think of these other motivations, because they're... well... normal.
psychopaths aren't necessarily all serial killers. they do seem to do a larger percentage of damage in proportion to their numbers.
re TORN... have there been TORN trolls? TORN is such an unusual online community to me, very respectful (very, very). very calm, very gentle.
cheers (and mae govannen to you : ) --
...
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 26 2025, 12:05am
Post #9 of 10
(3294 views)
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we did have the occasional troll, often coming from theonering.com (there was a stupid competitive spirit between a handful of members over which was the 'best' Tolkien forum). They were difficult to handle (but were few in number) before admins were established; then after the movies came out and there was a tsunami of new board members, the admin role came along and we had a few tools at our disposal, but mostly it involved us and other board members saying, "Oi! Calm down!"
Eventually the vibe settled into what you see today. 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Fantasy novel - The Arcanist's Tattoo
My LOTR fan-fiction
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DGHCaretaker
Rohan
Jul 26 2025, 12:23am
Post #10 of 10
(3279 views)
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And every two years a new season of Rings of Power is released....
Release the hounds!
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