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Curious
Half-elven
May 10 2007, 10:04am
Post #1 of 22
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**Beowulf Discussion Part 4**
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Lesslie Hall's 1892 translation is at this link:
http://www.gutenberg.org/...328-h/16328-h.htm#IV
IV.
BEOWULF GOES TO HROTHGAR'S ASSISTANCE.
So Healfdene's kinsman constantly mused on
His long-lasting sorrow; the battle-thane clever
Was not anywise able evils to 'scape from:
Too crushing the sorrow that came to the people,
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Loathsome and lasting the life-grinding torture,
Greatest of night-woes. So Higelac's liegeman,
Good amid Geatmen, of Grendel's achievements
Heard in his home: of heroes then living
He was stoutest and strongest, sturdy and noble.
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He bade them prepare him a bark that was trusty;
He said he the war-king would seek o'er the ocean,
The folk-leader noble, since he needed retainers.
For the perilous project prudent companions
Chided him little, though loving him dearly;
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They egged the brave atheling, augured him glory.
The excellent knight from the folk of the Geatmen
Had liegemen selected, likest to prove them
Trustworthy warriors; with fourteen companions
The vessel he looked for; a liegeman then showed them,
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A sea-crafty man, the bounds of the country.
Fast the days fleeted; the float was a-water,
The craft by the cliff. Clomb to the prow then
Well-equipped warriors: the wave-currents twisted
The sea on the sand; soldiers then carried
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On the breast of the vessel bright-shining jewels,
Handsome war-armor; heroes outshoved then,
Warmen the wood-ship, on its wished-for adventure.
The foamy-necked floater fanned by the breeze,
Likest a bird, glided the waters,
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Till twenty and four hours thereafter
The twist-stemmed vessel had traveled such distance
That the sailing-men saw the sloping embankments,
The sea cliffs gleaming, precipitous mountains,
Nesses enormous: they were nearing the limits
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At the end of the ocean. Up thence quickly
The men of the Weders clomb to the mainland,
Fastened their vessel (battle weeds rattled,
War burnies clattered), the Wielder they thanked
That the ways o'er the waters had waxen so gentle.
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Then well from the cliff edge the guard of the Scyldings
Who the sea-cliffs should see to, saw o'er the gangway
Brave ones bearing beauteous targets,
Armor all ready, anxiously thought he,
Musing and wondering what men were approaching.
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High on his horse then Hrothgar's retainer
Turned him to coastward, mightily brandished
His lance in his hands, questioned with boldness
"Who are ye men here, mail-covered warriors
Clad in your corslets, come thus a-driving
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A high riding ship o'er the shoals of the waters,
And hither 'neath helmets have hied o'er the ocean?
I have been strand-guard, standing as warden,
Lest enemies ever anywise ravage
Danish dominions with army of war-ships.
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More boldly never have warriors ventured
Hither to come; of kinsmen's approval,
Word-leave of warriors, I ween that ye surely
Nothing have known. Never a greater one
Of earls o'er the earth have I had a sight of
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Than is one of your number, a hero in armor;
No low-ranking fellow adorned with his weapons,
But launching them little, unless looks are deceiving,
And striking appearance. Ere ye pass on your journey
As treacherous spies to the land of the Scyldings
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And farther fare, I fully must know now
What race ye belong to. Ye far-away dwellers,
Sea-faring sailors, my simple opinion
Hear ye and hearken: haste is most fitting
Plainly to tell me what place ye are come from."
Dr. David Breeden's loose modern translation is at this link:
http://www.lone-star.net/...beowulf/beowulf1.htm
But a warrior of Hygelac's
heard of Grendel's doings;
he was the strongest of men
alive in that day,
mighty and noble.
That man called for a ship,
said he would cross the ocean
and help the king who needed help.
Wise men urged him
to that adventure
though he was dear to them.
They examined omens
and whetted him on.
So the good Geat chose
the bravest warriors,
fourteen of them,
and that crafty sailor
led them to the land's brim,
to the ship.
They readied the ship
on the waves under the cliffs
and the warriors stood at the prow
as the water wound against the sand.
The warriors bore
into the ship's bosom
bright weapons,
fitted armor.
The men shoved
the well-braced ship
out on the journey
they'd dreamed of.
The foamy-necked ship
went out like a bird
so that the next day
its curved prow
had gone so far
that the seafarers saw land,
shining shore cliffs
and steep mountains.
Their journey was already over
and the Geat warriors
pulled their ship to the shore
and stood on land
in their rattling shirts,
their war-clothes. They
thanked God for an easy trip.
From his wall the sea-guard of the Danes,
protector of the cliffs,
saw bright shields
and ready war dress
coming over the gang plank
and he wondered
who those men were.
Hrothgar's warrior rode
to shore on his horse.
Shaking a mighty spear, he spoke:
"Who are you, in armor,
who come over the sea-road
in that steep keel?
Listen: I guard here
so that no forces
hostile to the Danes
may raid. Never has
one so openly brought
a ship's army, warriors,
without the permission of my kinsmen.
And never have I seen
a greater man on earth,
any man in armor,
than is one among you.
Unless I'm wrong,
that is no hall-man,
just wearing armor--
his stature is peerless.
I wish to know your lineage now
so I know you are not spies
going into the land of the Danes.
You far-dwellers, seafarers,
hear my simple thought:
you had best hurry to tell me
where you come from."
Questions:
What is Beowulf's motivation? Why do his companions urge him on? What is the motivation of those who come with him? Why don't we hear anything about Higelac giving Beowulf permission for this venture?
Geats apparently came from a part of what is now Sweden, while Hrothgar and his Danes lived in a part of what is now Denmark. See this link for a map:
http://www.beowulftranslations.net/beowulf-map-515.shtml
Why are the Anglo-Saxons in England singing about the glory of the Danes and the Geats?
The Danes and the Geats live next door to each other. Why did Beowulf have to sail for a day on a ship to reach Hrothgar? What do you suppose the relationship was like between these neighboring peoples?
Beowulf is described as a "sea-crafty man" or a "crafty sailor." Where else do you suppose he has sailed, and why?
Doesn't this seem like a lot of preparation for a one-day trip, in which they may never have lost sight of land? Isn't it a bit of a let down to make all these preparations, setting off on what seems like a great journey, and then boom, they have arrived? And when you look at the map in the link above, it doesn't seem all that far, does it? Why all the build up? How was traveling different back then?
Wait a minute, I thought we were among the heathens. Why do Beowulf and his men thank God (or the Wielder, another name for God) for an easy trip?
The Danes have set a guard on the shores, who challenges the Geats. Why didn't Beowulf communicate with Hrothgar and get his permission before coming? The guard marvels at how openly the warriors landed. How would they have landed if they were raiding?
The guard instantly acknowledges Beowulf's greatness, although he apparently has never seen him before. How do you suppose he perceived Beowulf's greatness? Bulging muscles? Or something less visible? Why doesn't the poet tell us what the guard saw that led him to believe Beowulf was no ordinary man?
Where exactly is the guard when he issues his challenge?
Note that Hall again uses the word "race," presumably to mean nation or tribe or what Breeden translates as "lineage." Can any of our Old English speakers comment? I don't want to make too much of this, but I do think it is interesting how lightly Hall tosses around the word "race" in his 1890s translation, while the more contemporary translator does not use that word.
Other comments?
(This post was edited by Curious on May 10 2007, 10:05am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 10 2007, 2:56pm
Post #2 of 22
(962 views)
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(Let's hope they don't end up as "Fifteen Birds in Five Fir Trees"!)
What is Beowulf's motivation?
It’s a German thing. There’s an instinctive urge by young Germans to march west. That’s how they got into Europe in the first place. (Then England, then Pennsylvania, etc.)
Of course from a heroic standpoint Beowulf goes because someone needs to set things right.
Why do his companions urge him on?
He exemplifies their courage. If he’s brave enough to go, then they will go too.
What is the motivation of those who come with him?
Gold, girls, glory.
Why don't we hear anything about Higelac giving Beowulf permission for this venture?
A good Germanic king knows that to keep peace in the kingdom he needs to encourage restless young warriors to form a band and go somewhere else exploring, raiding, killing monsters, whatever. Sometimes they come back with booty, sometimes they settle down and form a new colony, and sometimes they die in glory. It’s a win-win-win situation for the king.
Why are the Anglo-Saxons in England singing about the glory of the Danes and the Geats?
Why are we singing about the glory of King Elessar and the inhabitants of Middle Earth? There’s something morally uplifting about stories concerning great heroes who fought way back when once upon a time in a peninsula far far away.
The Danes and the Geats live next door to each other. Why did Beowulf have to sail for a day on a ship to reach Hrothgar?
Well, Texas is right next door to Oklahoma but I have to drive all day to get from Austin to Tulsa.
What do you suppose the relationship was like between these neighboring peoples?
Oh, they probably raid each other on a regular basis. Steal each others’ junk back and forth over and over. Like mathoms. And carry off each other’s women for brides. No doubt everyone’s at least a cousin. In other words they’re very close and inter-related and fight like cats and dogs.
Beowulf is described as a "sea-crafty man" or a "crafty sailor." Where else do you suppose he has sailed, and why?
Oh, probably all up and down the Gulf of Bothnia beating up on Swedes.
Doesn't this seem like a lot of preparation for a one-day trip, in which they may never have lost sight of land?
That’s why most ships sink in sight of land: Nobody bothers to make proper preparations cause you’re not going that far and the next thing you know you’re at the bottom of the sea drowned in 15 feet of water. Remember, more than half of all accidents happen within 25 miles of home. And with this little passage the poem qualifies as a public service announcement as well as entertainment!
Isn't it a bit of a let down to make all these preparations, setting off on what seems like a great journey, and then boom, they have arrived?
Hey, the ship’s a hot rod! This is the part for the young kids. Like cars going really really fast in today’s movies and games. Think “Grand Theft Denmark”.
And when you look at the map in the link above, it doesn't seem all that far, does it?
That’s the problem with maps. Places look so close together, but when you try and go there you end up wishing you’d packed a lunch.
Why all the build up?
That’s the point! They made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs! Woo-hoo!! This is a voyage as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Geats, Danes, and Swedes!
How was traveling different back then?
No motels, no Auto Club, no McDonalds, no Highway Patrol, no highway, lots of brigands. Not to mention dirt poor villagers who didn’t care for strangers carrying lots of gold and expensive equipment. You’d be lucky if you didn’t take a nap in town and wake up naked and dead.
Wait a minute, I thought we were among the heathens. Why do Beowulf and his men thank God (or the Wielder, another name for God) for an easy trip?
Cause like God sent Scyld Scéfing to comfort the Danes now He’s sent Beowulf. This is the Higher Powers at work!
The Danes have set a guard on the shores, who challenges the Geats. Why didn't Beowulf communicate with Hrothgar and get his permission before coming?
No telephones. Beowulf probably would have gotten there about the same time as a messenger. Now if only they had some agreed upon system of communication like, oh, say, beacons.
The guard marvels at how openly the warriors landed. How would they have landed if they were raiding?
SOP for when going a’viking: Sail into a nearby estuary, then sneak through the forest the rest of the way. Like how Captain Morgan took Panama, or how Captain Jack sacked Port Nassau without firing a shot.
The guard instantly acknowledges Beowulf's greatness, although he apparently has never seen him before. How do you suppose he perceived Beowulf's greatness?
Well, the guard turned and saw the ship. In the stern stood Beowulf son of Edgetho, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land. (Hmmm….. That sounds familiar somehow…)
Bulging muscles? Or something less visible?
Well, these are indeed are indeed strange days. Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass, er, that is, sea.
Why doesn't the poet tell us what the guard saw that led him to believe Beowulf was no ordinary man?
He has a tall and kingly form. Probably also has grey eyes I bet.
Where exactly is the guard when he issues his challenge?
“High on his horse”. I’m sure if there had been a bunch of guards, and Beowulf and his band were on foot, then at a signal the riders would have made a quick turn and surrounded them in an ever-tightening circle.
Note that Hall again uses the word "race," presumably to mean nation or tribe or what Breeden translates as "lineage." Can any of our Old English speakers comment? I don't want to make too much of this, but I do think it is interesting how lightly Hall tosses around the word "race" in his 1890s translation, while the more contemporary translator does not use that word.
“Frumcyn” is more properly translated as “lineage”, or perhaps “origin”. Again Breeden is obsessed with race. We might have just as much fun analyzing him next time.
All is not gold that glitters,
All is not pure that shines.
Follow your mother's teachings
And happiness will be thine!
-Bugs Bunny, "Bowery Bugs", 1949.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 10 2007, 3:01pm)
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Curious
Half-elven
May 10 2007, 3:34pm
Post #3 of 22
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That's Hall who uses the word "race."
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Breeden is the more modern translator.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
May 10 2007, 5:18pm
Post #4 of 22
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Very entertaining as usual. :-)
And when you look at the map in the link above, it doesn't seem all that far, does it?
That’s the problem with maps. Places look so close together, but when you try and go there you end up wishing you’d packed a lunch.
This reminds me of a story I heard the other day. A friend of my Dad's was living in St. Louis back in the 1960s. His family came to visit him from Norway. They commented that they'd be arriving in New York, so he could pop over and pick them up. He replied that if he were traveling to Morocco they could pop down from Oslo and pick him up. Apparently they got it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on May 10 2007, 5:20pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 11 2007, 8:01am
Post #5 of 22
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Now that's what I call an entrance!
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After the non-description of Grendel, we find out what really gets the poet's (and presumably his audience's) juices running - the description of the heroes in their cool gear - the slinky boat, the glitter and swagger of armoured men and their state-of-the-art equipment. Heaney has a line I love here, describing the sound as the heroes alight from their boat: "...There was a clash of mail / And a thresh of gear." After all that description of amazing stuff, it doesn't seem surprising that the coast-guard is impressed!
What is Beowulf's motivation? Why do his companions urge him on? What is the motivation of those who come with him? Why don't we hear anything about Higelac giving Beowulf permission for this venture?
Since when have heroes needed any other motivation than to do great deeds for the good of others? As for his companions, I suppose they might be in it for the loot, but I think in terms of the poem, they're in it because they will follow Beowulf wherever he leads "because they would not be parted from [him] - because they love [him]", as Eowyn might put it. Like Aragorn, he's one of those natural leaders that never lacks for followers.
Geats apparently came from a part of what is now Sweden, while Hrothgar and his Danes lived in a part of what is now Denmark. Why are the Anglo-Saxons in England singing about the glory of the Danes and the Geats?
This is a tale of long ago and far away. From our perspective, it may look as if the poem is about a contemporary hero, but from the perspective of the poem, this is actually a tale of legendary heroes. (The same is true of Arthurian legends - although we tend to imagine them set in the refined 12th century world in which they were popular, to the people of that time they were about a vanished time long before, an a misty, magical faraway place.)
The Danes and the Geats live next door to each other. Why did Beowulf have to sail for a day on a ship to reach Hrothgar? What do you suppose the relationship was like between these neighboring peoples?
It's very difficult terrain in that area between Denmark and Sweden, if I remember correctly. You can cross the strait now on a high-tech bridge, but it's a steep and rocky coast, and no doubt the overland route would be difficult indeed, especially with horses and gear.
Beowulf is described as a "sea-crafty man" or a "crafty sailor." Where else do you suppose he has sailed, and why?
I assume sailing was the chief way of getting around at the time. Overland routes were always difficult, and whoever had control of the seas in those regions had the upper hand. At this point in Northern European history, the Vikings were serious contenders, but the Angles, Saxons and other seafaring groups were very powerful too. In fact, I'd say that ruling the waves was a very important part of European politics up to and including WWII.
Note that Hall again uses the word "race," presumably to mean nation or tribe or what Breeden translates as "lineage."
I image the reason is simply that "race" wasn't a loaded word back in the 19th century. It simply meant the same as "lineage" does now. Words pick up extra baggage as they move through history - look at the word "gay" for example, which went from meaning "happy", then "fun-loving", to euphemistically "(heterosexually) promiscuous", to its current meaning.
The word "race" has been tarnished by its use as a technical term in misguided "scientific" attempts to categorize humans into higher and lower types, but back in the late 1800's this kind of thinking was still recent and presumably hadn't yet impacted the word to make it unacceptable in polite company.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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NZ Strider
Rivendell
May 11 2007, 10:33am
Post #6 of 22
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No time, so just one or two comments:
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The scene in which the coast-guard greets Beowulf is an odd one in that it flouts the literary cliché current at the time. In an age when seaborne raids occurred with destressing frequency, encounters between coast-guards and ship's crews did not often go smoothly. In fact, according to the literary cliché, coast-guard and crew usually exchanged insults.
Thus, from the poetic Edda, out of Helgakvida Hundingsbana I, starting at stanza 31:
(following the translation of C. Larrington, since I'm being lazy and it's late)
"So in Una-bay in the evening
the splendid ships are floating;
and the others in person from Svarinshaug
with an anxious mind came to look at the army.
(Gudmund is here the coast-guard.)
"Gudmund asked, divinely-descended,
'Who is that ruler who leads the troop,
who's brought the dangerous men to the shore?'
(From the ship Sinfiotli answers.)
"Sinfiotlu said – he'd slung on the yard-arm
his red shield, the rim was all of gold;
he was a lookout-man who knew how to answer
and how to debate with the princes:
"'Say this evening when you're giving
pigs and bitches their feed to chew,
that these are the Ylfings come from the East,
eager for fighting to Gnipalund.
"'Hodbrodd will find Helgi there,
the prince who never flees, aboard his ship,
a man who's often given food to the eagles,
while you were kissing slave-women at the grindstone.' (Ahem!)
(Gudmund replies.)
"'Little must you recall, lord, the old stories.
when you taunt the princes with untruths;
you have eaten the leavings of wolves
and beed the slayer of your brother,
often you sucked wounds with a cold snout;
hated everywhere you've crept into a stone-tip.'"
I break off before the taunts reach a level inappropriate for a family board.
A similar exchange from Saxo Grammaticus, Gesta Danorum, book V 112 and following; Grep, the coast-guard, challenges Erik, who's arriving:
"Who are you, you fool? On what silly errand? Whence and whither
are you bound? What route, what pursuit, what father and family?
...
There are few people warm to a deed wrought by a rascal,
anmd the acts of detestable fellows rarely please."
Erik responds:
"Regner is my father, my characteristic a fluent
tongue, and prowess ever my life-long love.
...
A blockhead, unrestrained and unseemly in his emotions,
cannot conduct his affairs with due moderation.
..."
Grep replies:
"You are crammed full of disputes, they say, as a cock with filth,
stinking of low breeding and accusations.
It is hard to bring a case against a buffoon, who thrives
on a dance of words without expressing a meaning."
To which Erik responds:
"By Heaven, brainless talk, unless I am much mistaken,
often rebounds on the head of him who uttered it
..."
(Translation: P. Fisher; and here I'm not being merely lazy -- our library doesn't have a text of Saxo Grammaticus.)
And on it goes. There are various other examples; it was such a cliché, that the Beowulf-poet actually writes in regard to a later landing scene (when Beowulf returns to Geatland) that
Ll. 1891b-1894:
"the coast-guard noticed the men's return as he had before; and he did not greet the travellers with insults from the cliff's precipice and speak to their discredit."
The way the scene was supposed to work, coast-guard and Beowulf should have had an unpleasant exchange and hurled insults at each other. Instead, we have something very different. It seems that the Beowulf-poet is pointedly telling us that this is not a standard landing scene, but rather something very different. The coast-guard and Beowulf size each other up, and each forms a favourable impression of the other; as Kipling might have put it, "two strong men stand face to face."
The parallel within the poem is, I think, working here (Darkstone referred to it): first Scyld is sent in a boat to the Danes, now another man in a ship arrives in Denmark. By not giving the conventional scene, the poet suggests to his hearers that more is going on than just an ordinary arrival of a ship -- and so one thinks naturally enough of the other extraordinary arrival of someone by boat.
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a.s.
Valinor
May 11 2007, 11:20am
Post #7 of 22
(914 views)
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He bade them prepare him a bark that was trusty;
He said he the war-king would seek o'er the ocean,
The folk-leader noble,
Heaney has:
He ordered a boat
That would ply the waves. He announced his plan:
to sail the swan's road and seek out that king,
the famous prince who needed defenders.
Is "swan's road" a literal interpretaion? Is it a (I'm going to use a word I don't quite understand!) kind of a "kenning" for "ocean"?
What is Beowulf's motivation?
Does he have any "motivation" in the modern sense? Isn't he just challenging fate, the workings of fate, that put him in the way of helping a besieged king and earning fame because that is the way a hero buys "remembrance" and is his only lasting reward?
Where exactly is the guard when he issues his challenge?
Heaney has:
When the watchman on the wall, the Shielding's lookout
whose job it was to guard the sea-cliffs,
saw shields glittering on the gangplank
and battle-equipment being unloaded
he had to find out who and what
the arrivals were. So he rode to the shore,
this horseman of Hrothgar's, and challenged them
in formal terms, flourishing his spear:
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say they're going to a place called Glory, and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to Purgatory, and I don't like the sound of that!
I believe in love, and live my life accordingly,
And I choose: let the mystery be.
~~~~Iris DeMent
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Curious
Half-elven
May 11 2007, 12:02pm
Post #8 of 22
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"You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs!
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Go and boil your bottom, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all your silly English k-nnnnniggets. Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt! ... I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! ... Now, go away, or I shall taunt you a second time-a! [sniff]"
One of the things I love about Monty Python and the Holy Grail is that the writers had actually read the old tales, and were truer to them in parody than many more serious versions.
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Curious
Half-elven
May 11 2007, 9:46pm
Post #9 of 22
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A Google search turned up several other translations
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that speak of "swan's road" or "swan's riding," which wikipedia specifically quotes as a "kenning" for ocean, so I think that might be a literal translation. I'm not sure why my two translators did not use the phrase. Perhaps they thought it would be confusing to modern readers, or perhaps it did not fit into Hall's alliterative verse.
http://www.google.com/...p;btnG=Google+Search
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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 12 2007, 7:58am
Post #10 of 22
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"Swan-road" does seem to be a standard kenning
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according to Wikipedia, as you say. Also according to Wikipedia, "whale-road" is also used for the sea in Beowulf. "Whale-road" I can understand, but I've never imagined swans actually swimming across the sea (which is what swan-road seems to imply). They seem happy enough around saltwater shores, but do they actually venture out onto the sea? Or is there some other connection being made in this kenning? The Wikipedia entry for swans has an interesting summary of all the mythological connections to swans, which shows how important they have always been in the imagination. I also wonder if the curve-necked Viking/Danish ships might have been connected imaginatively to the swan?
(Post-script: I've just read the posts about Earendil and Elwing in the RR, which makes me realize that the "swan-road" might be where the swans journey in flight, rather than by swimming.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on May 12 2007, 8:06am)
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Curious
Half-elven
May 12 2007, 9:04am
Post #11 of 22
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A little Googling has revealed
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that mute swans in Scandinavia and Germany do not migrate south for the winter, but instead migrate from fresh water inland lakes (which may freeze over) to the salt water of the Baltic coast, which is rather calm. They can be seen there in large flocks in the winter. The mute swan is also the national bird of Denmark.
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Curious
Half-elven
May 12 2007, 9:59am
Post #12 of 22
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What is Beowulf's motivation? Why do his companions urge him on? What is the motivation of those who come with him? Why don't we hear anything about Higelac giving Beowulf permission for this venture?
In this heroic epic, Beowulf seems primarily motivated by glory, although remember that Hrothgar also had a reputation for generosity. What's interesting is that young warriors usually took such trips to raid, rather than offer service, to foreign kingdoms. Even if we were unfamiliar with history or other such epics, that's clear from the fact that Hrothgar set a guard upon the coast, and from the guard's challenge to the visitors.
I also find it interesting that Beowulf apparently did not need Higelac's permission for the trip, even though he was offering his services to a foreign leader. Just based on the poem so far, it seems as if authority is pretty loosely structured. Successful and generous leaders win many followers, as Hrothgar and his immediate ancestors have. And a retainer such as Beowulf is free to offer his services to a foreign leader, at least temporarily. Although it is not stated here, presumably unworthy leaders lose retainers.
Why are the Anglo-Saxons in England singing about the glory of the Danes and the Geats?
Perhaps the tale works better because it is about people similar to the Anglo-Saxons, who migrated from that general area, but not identified with any of the rival leaders or the ancestors of the rival leaders in the poet's audience. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one of the Anglo-Saxon leaders -- perhaps the original poet's patron -- traced his ancestry back to Hrothgar or Beowulf.
The Danes and the Geats live next door to each other. Why did Beowulf have to sail for a day on a ship to reach Hrothgar? What do you suppose the relationship was like between these neighboring peoples?
The Baltic coast is fairly calm, and roads were rough in those days. Plus going overland meant traveling through other people's territory, which as we see meant dealing with guards looking for raiders. As we see from the guard's challenge, Hrothgar also had to deal with raiders, some of whom were undoubtedly Geats.
Beowulf is described as a "sea-crafty man" or a "crafty sailor." Where else do you suppose he has sailed, and why?
Since he is an experienced warrior, Beowulf has presumably sailed on many raids, but also may have sailed for more peaceful purposes. Again, water travel was probably preferred to overland travel for anything longer than a day trip of a few miles.
Doesn't this seem like a lot of preparation for a one-day trip, in which they may never have lost sight of land? Isn't it a bit of a let down to make all these preparations, setting off on what seems like a great journey, and then boom, they have arrived? And when you look at the map in the link above, it doesn't seem all that far, does it? Why all the build up? How was traveling different back then?
Even a short trip was an adventure in those days. The sea was treacherous, and the reception at the other end was likely to be unfriendly. It was a big deal to leave home for more than a day. We see this in LotR, as well, where, with the exception of Aragorn and Gandalf, people rarely venture far from home.
Wait a minute, I thought we were among the heathens. Why do Beowulf and his men thank God (or the Wielder, another name for God) for an easy trip?
The poet does seem a bit inconsistent. Apparently he wants to gloss over the heathen part as much as possible, to the point where he anachronistically has the Geats thank God for a safe passage.
The Danes have set a guard on the shores, who challenges the Geats. Why didn't Beowulf communicate with Hrothgar and get his permission before coming? The guard marvels at how openly the warriors landed. How would they have landed if they were raiding?
Beowulf is his own messenger. And he lands openly as a sign of good faith. On a raid, a small band of warriors would have considered carefully how best to conceal their landing, perhaps coming by night, or far up an estuary. Alternatively, raiding warriors would have landed in force, so that they did not need to conceal their intent. That is why the guard wonders if these are spies, but doubts it because they land so openly.
The guard instantly acknowledges Beowulf's greatness, although he apparently has never seen him before. How do you suppose he perceived Beowulf's greatness? Bulging muscles? Or something less visible? Why doesn't the poet tell us what the guard saw that led him to believe Beowulf was no ordinary man?
The poet does describe Beowulf as the strongest man alive. Presumably he would have bulging muscles. But there's also a convention in heroic epics that heroes have a special look to them which instantly wins respect.
And perhaps that is true. After all, even among a group of fifteen athletes, you might be able to tell which one is the superstar, the Michael Jordan of the group. If nothing else, the deference shown to the superstar may give you a clue.
This is Beowulf's posse, his entourage, if you will. It may have been immediately obvious who was the leader, and if the guard thinks these warriors might be friendly, it doesn't hurt to say nice things about the leader.
Where exactly is the guard when he issues his challenge?
If I'm not mistaken, he is not just on his horse but also at the top of the cliff, looking down on the warriors who have just landed. Thus he is pretty safe from any violence they may have in mind.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 12 2007, 11:26am
Post #13 of 22
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I agree that it appears that the "command structure" is a loose one, since Beowulf doesn't seem to need explicit permission from Higelac. However, he obviously does run his plan by the elders of the community, who encourage him to go ahead.
Hall:
For the perilous project prudent companions
Chided him little, though loving him dearly
They egged the brave atheling, augured him glory.
Breedan:
Wise men urged him
to that adventure
though he was dear to them.
They examined omens
and whetted him on.
Heaney:
no elder denied him, dear as he was to them.
Instead, they inspected omens and spurred
his ambition to go
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Half-elven
May 12 2007, 1:43pm
Post #14 of 22
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of Christian and non-Christian references, since examining omens sounds distinctly non-Christian.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 12 2007, 3:29pm
Post #15 of 22
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I get the impression that the poem has a foot in both worlds
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Overall, it seems as if the poet and his hearers are able to hold both sets of beliefs - "pagan" and Christian - in their minds at the same time, without worrying about the kinds of logical, either-or conflicts between them that we notice today.
I've been reading some Irish myths recently (retold by Marie Heaney, wife of Seamus), and one thing that struck me is how they blend a Christian element into those early pagan stories of druids and magic. In one such legend, the Children of Lir are turned into swans by the evil magic of their stepmother, who tells them that they will only be released after 600 years, when they hear a bell announcing a new faith. After centuries of suffering, they are eventually rescued and given sanctuary by a monk, who keeps them safe (although eventually they are forced to leave the sanctuary by order of a king, whereupon they change back to human form and instantly die of old age).
As Heaney points out, these stories were only written down in Christian times because the technology of writing came with Christianity. The original myth obviously could not have included the reference to the new faith, yet it's been blended into the story in such an inclusive way that you get no sense of conflict between the new faith and the old beliefs.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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a.s.
Valinor
May 12 2007, 4:12pm
Post #16 of 22
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Where exactly is the guard when he issues his challenge?
Maybe someone who can read Anglo-Saxon can comment, because as I said above  , Heaney says the guard "rode to the shore" and then challenged them:
Heaney has:
When the watchman on the wall, the Shielding's lookout
whose job it was to guard the sea-cliffs,
saw shields glittering on the gangplank
and battle-equipment being unloaded
he had to find out who and what
the arrivals were. So he rode to the shore,
this horseman of Hrothgar's, and challenged them
in formal terms, flourishing his spear:
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Some say they're going to a place called Glory, and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to Purgatory, and I don't like the sound of that!
I believe in love, and live my life accordingly,
And I choose: let the mystery be.
~~~~Iris DeMent
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
May 12 2007, 4:24pm
Post #17 of 22
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I MUST finally get to see this Monty Python and the Holy Grail!...
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Thank you already for this great sample of it... A classic, I suppose?...
Being French, I am more familiar with Iliad and the other epic about Odysseus (no idea how you call it in English), but I don't seem to remember the opposing warriors there ever get so hilariously low in their mutual insults as these Germanic/Scandinavians ones do!!!
Or is it simply that one never gets to study those parts of the dialogue?...!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
May 12 2007, 8:08pm
Post #18 of 22
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Googling a bit more, I've found
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other swans (trumpeter, whooper, Bewick's) that seem to migrate between northern Scandinavian nesting sites and overwintering locations in more southerly regions such as Britain. The exact migration routes seem to be still uncertain, judging by the number of references I've found to tracking studies. But it seems quite likely that swans of these types might overfly southern Sweden and Denmark, and/or make winter visits there.
Reading more closely, I've noticed that Beowulf's ship is actually compared to a bird in this passage:
Hall:
The foamy-necked floater fanned by the breeze,
Likest a bird, glided the waters
Breeden:
The foamy-necked ship
went out like a bird
Heaney:
with the wind behind her
and foam at her neck, she flew like a bird
Heaney's image could be of a flying bird, although the description of foam at the neck of the boat (the bow-wave) really sounds more like a fast-swimming bird, especially a swan, which does seem to part the water with its neck as it swims.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Morwen
Rohan
May 12 2007, 8:58pm
Post #19 of 22
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The guard instantly acknowledges Beowulf's greatness, although he apparently has never seen him before. How do you suppose he perceived Beowulf's greatness? Bulging muscles? Or something less visible? Why doesn't the poet tell us what the guard saw that led him to believe Beowulf was no ordinary man?
That reminds me of Eowyn's first impression of Faramir.
And she looked at him, and saw the grave tenderness in his eyes, and yet knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would match in battle.
Apparently some warriors just have that certain look.
Doesn't this seem like a lot of preparation for a one-day trip, in which they may never have lost sight of land? Isn't it a bit of a let down to make all these preparations, setting off on what seems like a great journey, and then boom, they have arrived? And when you look at the map in the link above, it doesn't seem all that far, does it? Why all the build up? How was traveling different back then?
and Wait a minute, I thought we were among the heathens. Why do Beowulf and his men thank God (or the Wielder, another name for God) for an easy trip?
I don't think they could have been sure that it would be a one day trip. Had the seas been rough, or the wind blown the wrong direction or not at al, the adventurers could have been thrown off course and the trip could have taken much longer. Travel was precarious in those days. And that's why had I crossed that cold ocean in an open ship, and arrived safely in one day, I would have found some Higher Power to thank. Even heathens know better than to take good fortune for granted.
I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine
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Curious
Half-elven
May 12 2007, 9:00pm
Post #20 of 22
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where Tolkien got the idea for his swan boats.
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Saelind
Lorien
May 20 2007, 3:27am
Post #21 of 22
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I was a science major so this discussion has been very educational. I appreciate the comments on the background of the poem.
What is Beowulf's motivation? Why do his companions urge him on? What is the motivation of those who come with him? Why don't we hear anything about Higelac giving Beowulf permission for this venture?
*I would guess that the motivation is to do something heroic that would be remembered. His companions want to be part of this “heroic” venture. I am thinking of the St. Crispin’s Day speech from “Henry V”. “He that outlives this day, and comes safe home will stand a tip-toe when the day is named.”
Why are the Anglo-Saxons in England singing about the glory of the Danes and the Geats?
*They are examples of courage and honor. The poet is trying to show his audience that the qualities of these ancient people are something to aspire to.
The Danes and the Geats live next door to each other. Why did Beowulf have to sail for a day on a ship to reach Hrothgar? What do you suppose the relationship was like between these neighboring peoples?
*As it has been said before it was the easier way to get there. I imagine it was grudging respect with periods of friendship and periods of war.
Beowulf is described as a "sea-crafty man" or a "crafty sailor." Where else do you suppose he has sailed, and why?
*Other coastal areas on raids or visits perhaps?
Doesn't this seem like a lot of preparation for a one-day trip, in which they may never have lost sight of land? Isn't it a bit of a let down to make all these preparations, setting off on what seems like a great journey, and then boom, they have arrived? And when you look at the map in the link above, it doesn't seem all that far, does it? Why all the build up? How was traveling different back then?
*I don’t think it’s a let down. It gets you excited about what going to happen. It shows Beowulf’s standing among his people. He needs to project a certain image, first impressions and all that. Plus it makes his people look good too.
Wait a minute, I thought we were among the heathens. Why do Beowulf and his men thank God (or the Wielder, another name for God) for an easy trip?
*There is a mix of Christian and non-Christian elements. And I, too, think it’s a reflex to thank the gods or God for a successful trip.
The Danes have set a guard on the shores, who challenges the Geats. Why didn't Beowulf communicate with Hrothgar and get his permission before coming? The guard marvels at how openly the warriors landed. How would they have landed if they were raiding?
*It’s not like he could pick up a phone and call him.  I also think there was a bit of “the heat of the moment” in his decision to go to Hrothgar. The open landing shows that Beowulf and his companions do not come with evil intentions.
The guard instantly acknowledges Beowulf's greatness, although he apparently has never seen him before. How do you suppose he perceived Beowulf's greatness? Bulging muscles? Or something less visible? Why doesn't the poet tell us what the guard saw that led him to believe Beowulf was no ordinary man?
*Well he lands openly in a well made ship with well-armed men. And Beowulf probably projected an “air of command”. Charisma in D & D parlence.
A somewhat late post with nothing very original but curious sounded so wistful in wanting a little more participation. 
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