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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
From Balin, Smaug’s look, Bard’s introduction, Fellowship connections and more
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven


May 22 2008, 6:21am

Post #26 of 38 (388 views)
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Could be fun [In reply to] Can't Post

as long as it doesn't break any rules Blush

A bit of friendly rivalry between sibs Wink

And thank you I'm glad you like them BlushSmile

*hugs* Kelvarhin


There he stood
Proud and solemn
Yet happy and gay


grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 22 2008, 9:25am

Post #27 of 38 (409 views)
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100,000th post!? OMG! Congratulations! [In reply to] Can't Post

100,000th post by N.E. Brigand on May 21, 2008!!!





How PERFECT that it should land on one of your posts! *Smiles Broadly* This is HUGE!!! *toots on horn*

Way to go, NEB!! :D *high five*

I think your prize should be a free trip to the nearest Ice Cream Parlour ;)



sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on May 22 2008, 9:25am)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 22 2008, 10:09am

Post #28 of 38 (373 views)
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That is so incredibly appropriate! [In reply to] Can't Post

Our resident post-finder, being the one to make such a momentous post!

*tosses virtual confetti in air* Congrats!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

May 22 2008, 1:37pm

Post #29 of 38 (397 views)
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Thranduil isn't part of the council Gramma [In reply to] Can't Post

He is still In Mirkwood when Gandalf is away. Actually, we only know for a fact that the following persons were on The Council: Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan and Glorfindel. We may assume Celeborn and Radagast. Anyone else is sheer speculation, and Thranduil is actually an unlikely participant for various reasons. As much as we like him, he really is not in the same league with Galadriel, Elrond and Glorfindel (whom I pray we will see at last! Elrond's great captain leading a Rivendell contigent against Dol Guldur. . . hopefully the same actor whose picture was posted in that Glorfindel thread (which needs reviving), the one who stands behind Elrond in the Minas tirith scene, ROTK.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 22 2008, 2:19pm

Post #30 of 38 (368 views)
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I'm counting on you [In reply to] Can't Post

...to get the millionth post.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us May 19-25 for "Helm's Deep".


grammaboodawg
Immortal


May 22 2008, 4:39pm

Post #31 of 38 (355 views)
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Wow! These are awesome pics! [In reply to] Can't Post

IIRC, Gino Acevedo was hidden in Dwarvish makeup as well as a Corsair Pirate. I'll have to see if I can find the article.



sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Mirabella_Bunce
Rivendell

May 22 2008, 7:58pm

Post #32 of 38 (363 views)
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Oh! I didn't realize that was supposed to be Glorfindel! [In reply to] Can't Post

But it makes sense! So now I really do hope we get to see Glorfindel in the Hobbit movie - he always struck me as most elflike of all the extras, even (forgive me!) Figwit. Also he is very cute, so thanks yet again - now that I know he's Glorfindel, I don't have to chide myself that he's "too young for me" anymore!

In Reply To
Elrond's great captain leading a Rivendell contigent against Dol Guldur. . . hopefully the same actor whose picture was posted in that Glorfindel thread (which needs reviving), the one who stands behind Elrond in the Minas tirith scene, ROTK.



squire
Valinor


May 23 2008, 3:50am

Post #33 of 38 (350 views)
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Is Elrond a member of the "great council of White Wizards"? [In reply to] Can't Post

At the end of The Hobbit, Bilbo listens as Gandalf fills Elrond in on the expulsion of the Necromancer from Mirkwood, courtesy of the "White Wizards". One can hardly conclude that Elrond had left Rivendell at all during the hobbit's adventures. And one might imagine that if Glorfindel, as a member of Elrond's household since who knows when, had been at the attack on Dol Guldur, Elrond would hardly have needed to hear about the whole thing from Gandalf the next year.

I tend not to think that I know anything about Middle-earth "for a fact". What I like to know is what Tolkien wrote at various times, and in what context. Do you know where you read that very authoritative list of "persons on The Council" that you gave? I know that later on, after LotR was written, Tolkien adjusted his ideas about the "Council" to accomodate the idea of "The Wise" that the latter book had generated in its writing.

None of the LotR stuff on the so-called Council fits very well with what's written in The Hobbit, of course: "great council of White Wizards", indeed! The very phrase, evoking as it does the traditional fairy-tale distinction between "white magic" and "black magic", undercuts the whole White-Grey thing between Gandalf and Saruman. Tolkien reconceived the Council rather radically as he wrote and rewrote LotR. There we eventually learned that Galadriel had "called" the White Council and lobbied unsuccessfully for Gandalf as chief. Of course in the Tale of Years only Gandalf and Saruman are mentioned as members, and that entirely in the context of the search for The One Ring.

Along with Glorfindel and Elrond, I would not count Cirdan as a likely participant in the Council, for the reasons he gives: "I will dwell by the shores of the sea until the last ship sails" is how he puts it to Gandalf around 1000 Third Age; the White Council is not formed until after 2400 T.A. And as we see in FotR, Cirdan does not come to the Council of Elrond, but sends a representative.

Of course, he wrote additional bits and pieces about "The Council" in passages that appear in Unfinished Tales, but that research is supposed to be off limits for the writers of these Hobbit films. We hardly can call anything in there "fact" in any case - Tolkien never approved it for publication.

For The Hobbit/bridge film, if they have to show this "council", I'd like to see Saruman and Gandalf and Galadriel and about six other anonymous wizards and elf-lords (along the lines of the eye-candy wand-fodder that populates Jackson's version of The Council of Elrond).

I know I am repeating myself, but I keep seeing posters get this elementary rule of storytelling wrong: It is very important that Saruman be the good guy in these films. The nobler, smarter, and stronger he is in these films - smarter even than Gandalf! - the better FotR will look beside it in future years. The slightest hint that he is becoming corrupted by a lust for power and the Ring will absolutely ruin what little suspense the Orthanc scene in FotR offers. As Gandalf puts it in the book, though not in the movie since he does not tell the tale in retrospect, he would not have gone unwarily to see Saruman if he had had the slightest suspicion of danger. This from a wizard who boasts that he trusts no one, not even himself!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Mirabella_Bunce
Rivendell

May 23 2008, 12:34pm

Post #34 of 38 (340 views)
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Hmm, not sure why, but [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always imagined the actual "attack" on Dol Guldur to be more virtual than physical. I never imagined that the members of the White Counsel actually physically went to Mirkwood to do their little driving-out-of-the-Necromancer exorcism. I'm not sure why I get that impression, though! I've always "seen" it this way, even before PJ's nicely-presented little mental "teleconferences" between Elrond and Galadriel, or Gandalf's long-distance tossing of Saruman across the room while liberating Theoden.

But anyway, I agree, I don't think Elrond ever physically left Rivendell once he settled down there. I don't think Galadriel ever left Lothlorien, either. If anyone was physically present at the driving out of the Necromancer, it would have been the wizards - and maybe not even them (though for movie purposes it would look very cool and epic if they are physically there!) It was more like he was driven out by proxy of the White Council, really, not by them per se. At least that's how I've always thought of it without having actually thought about it, if you know what I mean.


(This post was edited by Mirabella_Bunce on May 23 2008, 12:34pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 23 2008, 1:27pm

Post #35 of 38 (340 views)
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Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

...founded Rivendell halfway through the Second Age, so we know he left at least once, about 2,000 years later, to take part in the Last Alliance. That can be determined from LotR. Galadriel settled in Lothlórien relatively late, well into the Third Age -- according to Unfinished Tales. Also in UT is a note indicating at least one of the White Council meetings was held in Rivendell.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us May 19-25 for "Helm's Deep".


AinurOlorin
Half-elven

May 23 2008, 2:24pm

Post #36 of 38 (338 views)
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Always trying to ruin the parade. What a raincloud! lol [In reply to] Can't Post

In all seriousness though, I think the whole explanation to Elrond will be left out. Though it does make sense that Elrond would have stayed at Rivendell and sent the mighty Glorfindel in his stead. And Elves are funny. Glorfindel might have been less willing to speak on the matter than Gandalf, or have simply decided Gandalf could better explain, having a deeper knowledge and understanding of all the events and implications.

Cirdan was a member of the council. See The Silmarillion. . "The White coucil was called. . . and therein were Galadriel, Cirdan and Elrond, along with other Lords of The Eldar, and Mithrandir and Curinir." We know that Glorfindel was one of those Lords of The Eldar from his comments in The Fellowship.

I really don't understand the wish to make everyone anonymous. . . unless its purely out of spite towards fans of Glorfindel or of Radagast or of Cirdan.UnimpressedMadWink.

There is NO good reason to make them all anonymous if we know who some of them were. Glorfindel and Cirdan at least should be preserved (especially Glorfindel), and should have at least minimal speaking lines. If Gamling and Grimbold got to speak, and several characters completely made up for the film, like that Elf who tells Arwen the ships won't wait, then certainly legends of the lore like our glorious Glorfindel can have their moment. Glorfindel, and even Cirdan and Radaghast, can easily be briefly worked in, unlike Bombadil, who really does require far too much in the way of excess information and explanation.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


merklynn
Lorien


May 23 2008, 2:43pm

Post #37 of 38 (337 views)
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White Council vs Dol Guldur insignificant cinematically [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Also in UT is a note indicating at least one of the White Council meetings was held in Rivendell.



That would work well if the particular council that film might depicts takes place in Rivendell, regarding what to do about the Necromancer. I suggested this previously as Estel might be a good POV to show this from, as a sort of witness to the gathering of the wise. The more tidily that the scene can be incorporated into the various possible strands that the companion film might depict, the better.

Regarding the White Council, I've also wondered about the reality of it. It is a very alluring image to think of Endor's big guns gathering for a physical confrontation against an evil "necromancer" and driving him out. But often these sorts of terms are simply metaphors for political meneuverings and pressure. As mentioned by others, the White Council forming a unanimous opinion to oppose the Necromancer might have been all that it took for Sauron to exit Dol Guldur and head to Mordor. This is not as exciting or cinematic, sadly, but it is perhaps a safer and more reasonable interpretation of the rather vague description of events.

Squire makes perhaps the most interesting point:


Quote
At the end of The Hobbit, Bilbo listens as Gandalf fills Elrond in on the expulsion of the Necromancer from Mirkwood, courtesy of the "White Wizards". One can hardly conclude that Elrond had left Rivendell at all during the hobbit's adventures. And one might imagine that if Glorfindel, as a member of Elrond's household since who knows when, had been at the attack on Dol Guldur, Elrond would hardly have needed to hear about the whole thing from Gandalf the next year.



With this in mind, it is now extremely hard for me to believe Elrond was part of any physical force that went to face off against the Necromancer. Nor Glorfindel who would also have reported the events to Elrond had he been part of it. The more I think about it now, the less likely it seems that anyone at all, not even Gandalf or Saruman actually went to the doorstep of Dol Guldur and told Sauron his secret was up. I suspect they found more indirect means to communicate this warning to him. Once again, the Dol Guldur confrontation sounds less of a confrontation and less of a set piece for a film than it did originally to me. I think it will be a signifcant scene as a council discussion only, and possibly some later shot of of Dol Guldur's gates opening and some Black Riders gallopping out towards Mordor. The set pieces for the interim film would most likely be original material elaborating on Thorongil's activities, and/or Aragorn's later capturing of Gollum. That or Balin material. I think the former is more likely.



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Oct 31 2008, 4:41pm

Post #38 of 38 (156 views)
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Wow! Awesome!! Thank you :D // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

sample


sample

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."

I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



TORn's Observations Lists

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