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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
King of the Golden Hall 5: Diplomacy
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Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 17 2008, 4:52am

Post #26 of 35 (287 views)
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"Look for me on the third day, at dawn." [In reply to] Can't Post

Not one of the screenwriters' better moments, because how could Gandalf possibly know how long it would take to find Éomer ? Be that as it may, I'm thinking that Éomer isn't peacefully heading for exile anywhere, but is in fact thinking of taking on Saruman's forces and is therefore heading towards Isengard, which would put him in an auspicious location. Of course, it's been about 5 days since he met the Hunters, and could have been at Isengard long since, but timelines aren't the film's strong points.




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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 17 2008, 4:14pm

Post #27 of 35 (273 views)
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Exile [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes exile didn't mean being driven out of the country, but being banned from court, or from the capitol, or being confined to one's own ancestral lands.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 17 2008, 4:17pm

Post #28 of 35 (282 views)
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There was no Dunland [In reply to] Can't Post

Dunland no longer existed as a political entity. Rohan used to be Dunland. The Dunlendings were a conquered people. That's why Saruman could rile them up. They had a legitimate grievance, but grasped at the wrong ally to redress it.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.

(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on May 17 2008, 4:21pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 17 2008, 7:04pm

Post #29 of 35 (271 views)
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It's on the map [In reply to] Can't Post

in my 50th Anniv. ed. of LotR: immediately west of the southern reaches of the Misty Mtns. Some of the folk who live there are surely descended from those pushed out by the Eorlingas when they took what is now Rohan, and their resentment is understandable.

My suggestion that movie-Éomer might have headed that way is based on the supposition that he would have been more concerned with defending Rohan (even illicitly) than accepting any form of exile for himself. And that would make him easier for Gandalf to find as well as auspiciously located for relieving Helm's Deep.




Ride with us in the Reading Room this week to see
the King of the Golden Hall!


Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 18 2008, 6:39pm

Post #30 of 35 (272 views)
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You're right again! / / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


sador
Half-elven

May 19 2008, 7:24am

Post #31 of 35 (312 views)
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Of course she did! [In reply to] Can't Post

I know Elizabeth meant Grima, but I questioned the defining of him as a traitor. I distinguished between what we know is good for Rohan, and the actual will of the legitimate government. Treachery is towards the later, and Grima is clearly not a traitor.

Unless, of course, we take for granted Gandalf's words that Saruman bought him. Gandalf accuses him, Grima denies, saying Gandalf lied, and Gandalf contradicts him. What would be the verdict of an unbiased jury?

"I will help as I may" - Gimli


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 9:35am

Post #32 of 35 (229 views)
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Like Curious, I suspect that Aragorn merely foretells rather than curses. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 9:36am

Post #33 of 35 (228 views)
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Aragorn’s ancestry impresses Éomer in the book too. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 9:38am

Post #34 of 35 (231 views)
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In that sense, Háma reminds me of Togashi in “Kanjincho.” [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a kabuki that I only know from its retelling by Akira Kurosawa (with a twist) as the film Tora no O o Fumu Otokotachi, or The Men Who Step on the Tiger’s Tail (completed 1945, released 1953). Here are some interesting remarks from Donald Richie’s description of the play:


Quote
Yoshitsune, one of Japan’s most famous generals, is fleeing form his brother, Yoritomo. He is accompanied by his retainers and by Benkei—all of whom are disguised as mountain priests. At Ataka is a sekisho or check-point through which they must pass on their flight, but it is in the hands of Yoritomo’s forces. The false monks must convince the commander, Togashi, that they are real and Benkei reads an empty scroll pretending that it is the kanjin-cho or subscription-book of their temple. When they are leaving, Yoshitsune—dressed as a porter—is recognized. Benkei averts the discovery by finding this porter too slow and by beating him. The beating of a lord by his retainer is directly contrary to the ethos of Japanese feudalism and, though Togashi suspects, he is so moved by this that he not only allows the party to proceed but sends a train of bearers after them with saké. Benkei formally begs pardon of Yoshitsune, receives it, and then gets drunk on the saké and dances….
This is a touchy point in the Kabuki and different actors play it differently. Did Togashi truly know that it was Yoshitsune? Therefore, knowing, does he allow him to escape? This is the one psychologically interesting explanation, but for years a controversy has been raging in the Kabuki as to just how the role should be interpreted…. [However] If Togashi lets them go, knowing, then theat means that they fooled no one and it makes Benkei less the hero. It even throws some doubt on the usefulness of the unthinkable tableau of retainer beating master.



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Curious
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 4:53pm

Post #35 of 35 (242 views)
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Does it make Aragorn and Gandalf less heroic [In reply to] Can't Post

if they failed to fool Hama? I don't think so. Hama needed a reason to let Gandalf in with his staff, and the act was well played. Even if it fools no one, it's a ritual which must be observed in order to allow Hama to do the letter of his duty. And I think it does create some doubt, which Hama resolves emotionally, rather than logically.

Are Gandalf and Aragorn lying by implying that the staff is only a crutch for an old man? I think they are practicing the fine art of equivocating or evasion of unpleasant truths -- an important art in a world where people like Hama are practiced truth tellers, and also where your words may bind you for all eternity. Gandalf is old, he does lean on his staff, a staff in the hands of an old man is ordinarily not considered a weapon -- and for that matter, Gandalf doesn't use his staff as a weapon in the ordinary sense.

We also see this art practiced by Frodo when Faramir questions him. Frodo is quite good at it; Sam is not. Sam is a truth teller in the ordinary sense -- no clever evasions for him.

Of course, equivocation also has its unpleasant side, as when Bilbo tried to avoid telling the true story about the Ring, or when Gollum attempts to avoid his oath to Frodo by letting Shelob do his dirty work.

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