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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 28 2008, 10:38pm
Post #1 of 11
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thoughts on the 2nd volume film.
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WHY THE ATTACK ON DOL GULDUR IS ESSENTIAL TO THE BRIDGE AND TO THE LOTR PLOT!
The Unfinished Tales have been speaking to me again of late, and this is what I am channeling. The Attack on Dol Guldur was indeed a pivotal event in The Tale of Years and The War of The Ring. I have heard some say it was not, because Sauron had planned it to go as it did, but that is not entierly true. Sauron had perceived, realizing that Gandalf had discovered him and alerted the other Powers among The Wise, that he would be attacked, and he had made arrangements to mitigate the damage of that attack. But his fient and return to Mordor was just that, damage control. It was not his true desire, nor his preffered plan of action.
Consider the words of The Wizard. "I was very troubled at that time, for Saruman was hindering all my attempts at The Council. . . I knew that Sauron had arisen again. . . and I knew he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I felt then, and I AM SURE NOW, THAT TO ATTACK LORIEN AND RIVENDELL AS SOON AS HE WAS STRONG ENOUGH WAS HIS ORIGINAL PLAN. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MUCH BETTER PLAN FOR HIM, AND MUCH WORSE FOR US.. . . You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom Under The Mountain and The Strong men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain The Northern passes. . . and the old realm of Angmar, there were only The Dwarves of The Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and A Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use to terrible effect! Often I thought to myself; '. . . a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed. We must disrupt Sauron's plans.. . I persuaded The Council to attack Dol Guldur first, before He attacked Lorien. . . Sauron decided to take the next step. He returned at once to Mordor and in ten years declared himself. Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan, and in the end it proved a mistake. Resistance still had someplace where it could take consel, free from The Shadow. How could The Ringbearer have escaped, if there had been no Lorien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all of his power against them first, and not wasted more than half of it in the attack on Minas Tirith."
And herein we find the truth of why the attack on Dol Guldur, while not the decisive or lasting victory that The Wise had hoped for, was still an instrumentally important event in The History of The War of The Ring. Far more important than Aragorn's victory in Umbar, and likely on par with the Battles of Helm's Deep and The Pelenor Fields in significance. In this light, the weight and truth of Elrond's statement to Gandalf, "And, but for your vigilance, the darnkess, maybe, would already be upon us," is brought home.
Playing up these angles would make it clear, in the film, why The Dol Guldur attack was of such import, and will offer a much greater sense of vast impending peril to all Middle-Earth, via the peril to its strongest places of Power, as well as offering a more immediate connection to the designs of Sauron, than would, say, battles between Gondor and The Corsairs in The South. Certainly it is far more closely related to the Hobbit.
Interestingly, this could also bear a small connection to the Balin/Balrog tale, though only in passing. Perhaps the destruction of Balin's colony by The Balrog and his host happens not long before the decisive Council meeting (in the films anyway, all of this set, perhaps five to ten years post Hobbit). And as a final prod, Gandalf suggests, at that meeting(held in Lorien?) , that they consult Galadriel's Mirror, in an attempt to more clearly see the most likely outcome of delaying further. Perhaps a scene of Smaug descending on Rivendell as a thing that "might have " been. Or of other lesser dragons besieging it. And a scene of (how amazing would this look, even in the mirror water) The Balrog of Morgoth with The Nine Nazgul in his train leading an assault against Lorien. It has been discussed before, that it is entirely probable that it Sauron would have done all possible to convince his former Demonic comrade and co-captain in the service of Melkor The Morgoth, to assist him in an assault against the mightiest of his Elven foes remaining in Middle-Earth, The Lady Galadriel. IT would have made the best tactical sense. Even The Witch-King of Angmar was unwilling to lead a challange against The Noldor Queen, for the power of her Ring, and, more consequentially, for the Light of Valinor that was in her, which he had also feared in Glorfindel. The Balrogs held no such fear. Bold, and proud, and poweful, they feared only the wrath of the other Ainur, and it was their own presence which left even High-Elves striken with fear, rather than the other way around. Also, the promise of direct assistance from The Nine would surely have lessened The Balrogs own fears of potentially having to sacrifice himself for a victory over The Elven Queen. As to what was in it for The Balrog (who, admittedly, was not likely to jump at the chance to serve a relative peer, even one with greater power, after so long a period free from mastery, unless considerable incentive was offered). . . aside from the typical promises of power, his key motivator would be revenge. It is said that The Demons of Might were most like Melkor in his corruption, which would mean they were full of hate, and malice, and that they took all slights VERY personally. The promise of vengeance on one of the greatest of The Noldor would have been mighty incentive indeed.
I think, given the decade and possibly several decades of un-assailed security which Sauron would have had, had Gandalf NOT uncovered his identity and repeatedly urged and proded The Council to attack, that this is one of the more likely scenarios of the way Sauron's Great War would have played out.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Apr 29 2008, 1:09am)
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Unspoken_Request
Bree
Apr 29 2008, 1:38pm
Post #2 of 11
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Your thoughts are intersting but
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Could you please use standard characters? These big and bold characters make it less convenient for us to read. It detracts the reader from the message. It feels a bit like I'm being shouted at. I know that is not your intent, but it's still annoying.
On subject: most here agree that Dol Guldur is very important. Most think (and GDT seems to hint this way) that it will indeed be included in the movie.
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merklynn
Lorien
Apr 29 2008, 1:41pm
Post #3 of 11
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First, let me say how much I enjoyed reading your "essay" for want of better term. I think it is very well thought out and highlights a lot of exciting strategic POV offered in the extra material from sources like the Unfinished Tales. I hope there is a way to use this material (not much of the book really) without there being any serious copyright issues, because I want this story told on film as accurately as possible.
I have a question, and my question is thus... Did Sauron plan to make his move (the war of the ring) minus the ring or with it? I realize this may seem a foolish question, but from all we hear and read, if Sauron had the ring, he'd be much more powerful. But would he have been unstoppable even then? Gandalf already saw to it that Smaug would not be an ally, and presumably Gandalf did not consider the Balrog to be an option for Sauron, unless Gandalf deliberately manipulated the fellowship to Moria so he could take care of the Balrog himself. I'm just curious, if Sauron had gained the ring roughly by the time that FOTR begins, and IF the Balrog was not really an option to help him, then could Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, and others still have managed a victory... just with more decimation to their kingdoms? Remember, there is still the Dead Men of Dunharrow... would they have been swayed by Sauron's ring on the field of battle?
The bottom line might be Gwahir, lord of the eagles. His feathered peers seem to save the day all the time anyway. I'm just being silly now... or am I?
I love the speculation and I really hope that PJ and GDT explore the Necromancer and Dol Guldur material to the fullest, along with of course the romance between Aragorn and Arwen.
(This post was edited by merklynn on Apr 29 2008, 1:43pm)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 4:43pm
Post #4 of 11
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Answers, as best I can manage them. . .
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Unspoken request, my apologies. I am not shouting ( well, sometimes I am   ), but I type in bold to make sure no one has trouble seeing and the words don't seem to run together, especially since I tend to type in blue and write long posts.
MErklyn (love your Gandalfesque Fizban by the way) . . . lets see.
1. Yes, Sauron was planning to strike without the ring. As Gandalf says to the Council (of which Glorfindel was a member ) "It is not needed that he regain the ruling ring. For while it abides on earth and is not destroyed, still his power grows. The enemy already holds The Nine, and of The Seven he has recovered three. Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the one. We Must Strike!"
Also he certainly intended to lure Smaug into service for the Destruction of Rivendell. As to The Balrog, there is nothing to suggest that Gandalf did not think him an option for Sauron's cause. Indeed, Arathornjax brought it to my attention that Tolkien wrote a letter stating that a great fear of Celeborn upon hearing that the dwarves had stirred "The Terror" again in Moria was that The Balrog would gather a large orc army and lead an attack on Lorien.
2.Gandalf was not aware that The Balrog was there, by the novle reckoning. "A Balrog. Now I understand. . ." For in the encounter at last the hopless nature of the dwarves flight from Moria, and the identity of the powerful spell-caster who had strove with Gandalf for control of the Door to Marzabul was revealed.
Admiteddly The Balrog would not have been the sort of unconditional servant to Sauron that The Nazgul were. Neither would the Dragon have been. But as they shared evil purpose, they would likely have worked in concert. The Balrog would have proven of inestimable value to any assault on Lorien, for He would be the one thing that even the mighty among the Silvan and Sindar Elves would have been truly fearful of (Amroth and a third of his people fled Lorien at the mere awakening of The Demon of Might), and the one enemy against whom even Galadriel's power would not guarunteed victory. Leading an army would have been business as usual for one of the former chief servants of Melkor the Morgoth (unlike Shelob, who like Ungoliante had only hunger, and lacked the desire for structured dominion). And, as has been said, with the guaruntee by Sauron of an army to follow him, and likely with some if not all of The Nazgul commanded to aid him in the siege, pure malice against the elves, who had been the cause of his master's downfall, would likely have been motivation enough for The Balrog to assist the cause of his ancient comrade. The Balrogs, after all, were the "first to adhere to Melkor in the days of his splendor, and became most like him in his corruption." Also, The Balrog would have been the only aid to Sauron (aside from the dragon) who would not have feared the sacred power of Lothlorien, its Lady or its Elves. Unlike the Wraiths of Kings, the Balrogs had no fear of even High-Elves. These were corrupted Maia, older than the world, and they had served as the captains of Melkor's hosts and of all his assaults both against the works of THe Valar, and against the ancient Elves. And as Legolas said, they were "of all Elf-banes most deadly, save The One who sits in The Dark Tower."
3.The attack on Dol Guldur, while forseen and partly prepared against by Sauron, was still a major disruption of his original plans, which likely included both The Dragon of Erebor. . . and The Balrog of Moria. Moria after all was very near to Dol Guldur, and Sauron sent many orcs and trolls thither. I doubt it long escaped his notice when they were subjectated by another dreadful lord.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 4:56pm
Post #5 of 11
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Tolkien said Celeborn fears balrog-led army?
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Indeed, Arathornjax brought it to my attention that Tolkien wrote a letter stating that a great fear of Celeborn upon hearing that the dwarves had stirred "The Terror" again in Moria was that The Balrog would gather a large orc army and lead an attack on Lórien.
I have no memory of that letter -- details, please!
This post was more easier on the eyes than your first one, by the way.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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merklynn
Lorien
Apr 29 2008, 5:04pm
Post #6 of 11
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I actually didn't have a problem with his larger font, and it probably would be easier on my eyes if it wasn't for the bolded blue. It's kind of a too solid, too much the same... sort of thing. The size isn't bad for an old wizard with weak eyes. :-)
However, the standard for the boards should be adhered too.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 6:15pm
Post #7 of 11
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I'd love to site the entire letter
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Unfortunately, Arathornjax clued me in on it. He knows the original content. I had asked him to post the full letter on this Balrog attack, but as of yet, have not seen it on the threads. I am hoping he will put it up soon.
That Celeborn would have feared The Balrog only stands to reason. Balrogs having slain High-King Fingon, at least two of the mightiest captains in the history of The Noldor, and Feanor himself, mightiest of all The Eldar in Middle-Earth. . . they had a powerful reputation of dire menace. I was interested to hear Tolkien had written on it. . . but there is little surprising in it really. There was, after all, no way of Knowing with certainty that Gandalf, haven fallen into battle with The Balrog, would defeat it. It was a great Power against which he was only newly being tested, and the outcome was far from assured. If the Balrog had limped away from the battle victorous and healed in the dark. . . . . . . .
All that said, the only reason for the Elves of Lorien not to have been deeply concerned about The Valarauko next door, was if they were indeed unaware of his nature. Within the context of The Film, they are very well aware of his nature and presence, and would doubtless fear his coming out of Moria, as much as the filmed Gandalf feared going in. For all the talk some have made of it maybe being a brute, we have all the evidence needed to prove the counter. We know that the Demon had sorcerous might to Rival even one of the chiefs of The Five Wizards, that they were more than a match in battle prowess for all but the very greatest of The High-Elves of antiquity, and that they served as Melkor's "proud Thanes" and "captains."
The Balrog was not some idiot brute like the cave troll, as much a danger to comrades as to combatants. The Balrog might well have had sorcery enough to break through Galadriel's fencing of Lorien, for mighty as she was, she was not of The Ainur. . . Galadriel of The Noldo was not Melain The Maia. That any Balrog, reinforced by a sizeable orc army, and possibly The Wraith Lords of Sauron would have posed a severe threat to Lorien, greater than any seen since the days of Sauron's peak in The Second Age, is rather incontestable.
(p.s. Merklyn, I deem that I am not breaking forum format, since its the forums that give me the tools to enhance size and change colour. They value our individuality lol)
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 6:28pm
Post #8 of 11
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It wasn't the font, size or color for me but the run-on paragraphs stuck together with ellipses and the periodic emphases in all-caps that made the first post hard to read.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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merklynn
Lorien
Apr 29 2008, 6:36pm
Post #9 of 11
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Middle-earth Celebrity Deathmatch
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So maybe we should have a fantasy tournament where we pick the who would beat who in a match. LOTR celebrity deathmatch. Of course that would earn the negative connotation of "fanboy" and I think one thing that makes LOTR fans different than many others is the kind of studious and bookish culture of the fandom.
Still, part of me would love a bit of fun like that.
Just how powerful are Galadriel and the elven rings?
(This post was edited by merklynn on Apr 29 2008, 6:37pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 29 2008, 6:43pm
Post #10 of 11
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Here's the earlier post by ArathornJax
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...where he refers to this letter. I should definitely like to know more about it. To the best of my poor recollection, it's not in Letters, but there are other Tolkien letters out there.
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Unspoken_Request
Bree
Apr 29 2008, 7:00pm
Post #11 of 11
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I hope someone in NZ or near GDT is taking note.
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Imho, by his posts here AinurOlorin has clearly established in more detail than I could ever remember about Tolkien's stories what should probably be the spine (for a lack of a better word in English) of the second movie. Making The Hobbit's quest relevant to the global fate of Middle-earth is essential for these movie to fit with LOTR. This whole strategic thinking by Gandalf makes everything gel into one single long tale (The only probable part that is not directly related is Aragorn-Arwen's tale).
I often thought taht the quest against the Lonely Mountain was a diversion for the real strike in Dol Guldur because I never thought Smaug and Sauron could have cooperated effectively. Same with the Balrog (I thought it was a classic case where evil guys hate each other's gut, making it easier for the good guys to win). I hope this outlook on the story of Middle-earth is not too geopolitical for PJ and GDT's taste.
I'm sure there'd be a way to make it all very engaging.
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