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Fionnan2
Rivendell
Apr 18 2008, 10:58am
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The blue wizards?
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What exactly happend to these two wizards? I've gotten different intrepretations from the internet both positive and negative. Does anyone know what really happend them? I would be most grateful if anyonne could enlighten on the matter.
Fionnan
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 18 2008, 11:27am
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In Unfinished Tales Tolkien said that no one knew their fate, and in a letter he said "I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
There's plenty of room for fan fiction, if you like.
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visualweasel
Rohan
Apr 18 2008, 2:28pm
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Am I the only one who's ever wondered why Tolkien decided to have one grey, one white, one brown, but two blue wizards? We're told that "Alatar took Pallando as a friend"; but on the other hand, Saruman took Radagast at the behest of Yavanna, and each had his own color. Why did the two friends, Alatar and Pallando, both represent blue? It makes them seem completely interchangeable* — which is perhaps just indicative of their being an afterthought to Tolkien. Still, it chafes at me. A wizard spectrum would seem to call out for five distinct colors.
* "Wizard-twin powers, unite!!" 
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 18 2008, 2:46pm
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They wear the same color cause they're on the same team.
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The grey, white, and brown wizards are wizards in the friendly West.
The two blue wizards are wizards in the enemy occupied East. Thus they would seem to need to be more co-dependent (or interchangable) since the only ones that they would have to depend upon were each other. That is, it was necessary that they be a much more unified team than the Wizards of the West.
Just a thought.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 18 2008, 2:50pm)
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 18 2008, 2:47pm
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Perhaps it has to do with stereotypes of wizards.
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After all, in The Hobbit, where Gandalf was introduced as a more traditional wizard, he wore a "tall pointed blue hat." In tradition those blue hats usually were decorated with stars and moons or astrological signs. Often the robe was blue as well. Thus:
In LotR, Gandalf becomes an altogether different kind of character, more angelic in nature. Perhaps Tolkien invented the Blue Wizards to account for the difference between Gandalf in LotR and the Victorian stereotype.
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 18 2008, 3:15pm
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Elsewhere - just read it several months ago, Tolkien says that perhaps the Blue Wizards had great sucess in helping keep down the effectiveness of the Easterling's attacks on Gondor in the Latter Third Age, helping to undoubtabely save Gondor....
I tried looking it up in The Letters of JRR Tolkien, but it's not there, so it must be in HoME somewhere.
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acheron
Gondor
Apr 18 2008, 3:19pm
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Pretty sure the thing you're referring to is in The Peoples of Middle-Earth.
Don't have it with me now, but he gives a couple alternate names for them (other than Alatar and Pallando), suggests they possibly came to ME during the *Second* Age, rather than the Third like the other wizards, and says they were probably successful in the East. Hopefully someone who's not at work at the moment has their copy of HOME XII and can find the exact information. :)
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 18 2008, 3:43pm
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Tolkien's comments, that they may have failed and founded cults, and that they heroically succeeded in hampering a portion of Sauron's recruitment might not contradict each other. Like most of his contradictions, when you combine them together they produce something much more subtle, detailed, and rich.
One possible scenario: They go east. They impress people with their powers. They decide that the easiest way to spread reform is to allow people to worship them, thus greatly increasing their influence. No need to fuss with long explanations, just say, "Trust me, I'm God." As the network spreads beyond their less-than-omnipresent reach, they create a priesthood to represent them in the spread of their policies. Sauron takes note, and finds the followers of the Blue Wizards pre-conditioned to follow blindly. So he insinuates himself into the cults, seducing or replacing priests right and left, and takes them over, winning himself many slavish devotees, who still believe themselves to be following the Blue Wizards. The Blue Wizards themselves rise up to expose this as a lie, and die dreadful martyr's deaths, but not before sowing sufficient seeds of doubt and dissension, at considerable risk (ultimately fatally realized) to themselves, to insure that Sauron cannot draw on nearly as large an army as he had hoped.
Thus they did some good, yet still fell short. Anyway, that's my possibility. Others might come up with something different.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 18 2008, 3:52pm
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Hopefully someone who's not at work at the moment has their copy of HOME XII and can find the exact information. :)
That would be me......
I've been reading so many of Tolkien's supplemental works lately, I can't keep them straight.....
The Quote:
' 'They must have had very great influence on the history of the 2nd & 3rd Ages (sic) in weakening & diarraying the forces ol the East.'
There is much in this short essay that is in disaccord, however:
It starts by saying they (the Blue Wizards of course) came with Glorfindel in the Second Age, yet that was never settled in Tolkien's mind (completely) & now further discord arises in this unpublished essay saying two of the 5 Istari came not in c. 1000 of the Third Age
Then, it says Glorfindel was 'pre-eminent in the (Second Age) 'war in Eriador' Yet, this is never mentioned in The Tale of Years, nor is such a prominent figure mentioned in the Battle of Dagorlad or Seige of Barad-dur, while all other leaders are.....
The essay goes on to say, that though the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age, they were sent after Sauron's first fall (at the END of the Second Age) to 'search out his hiding'. This would seem contradictory & put their coming back to early Third Age, but earlier than c. 1000......
Finally, if we look at the history of Gandalf & Saruman, we know they arrived in Third Age c. 1000 & are not mentined for about 1000 more years. Tolkien tells us that they spent this time travelling far & wide, learning of Middle-earth & it's people (forget Radaghast).
Now, if we look at the Tale of Years, after the year 2000 of the Third Age, with the exception of the Battle of the Field of Ceelebrant, there are no attacks from Easterlings. This would seem to indicate that the Blue Wizards may have arrived in T.A. 1000 & began to have some sucess in the East after 1000 years of their own wandering & learning the people.......
They impress people with their powers. They decide that the easiest way to spread reform is to allow people to worship them, thus greatly increasing their influence. No need to fuss with long explanations, just say, "Trust me, I'm God."
The one problem with this is: ''
'They were forbidden to match power with power & reveal themselves in forms of majesty.'
Just by doing so, they, like Saruman, would be grasping for power & worshipping themselves......
(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Apr 18 2008, 3:58pm)
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 18 2008, 4:03pm
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So here is the question that leaps to mind regarding the Wizards, their mission, and their success or failure:
Compare Saruman with Radagast. Both of them depart from their intended purpose they were sent to Middle Earth to accomplish, but they do so in very different ways, and Saruman a lot moreso than Radagast. Radagast merely wishes to live with and protect the animals and plants, not the Free Peoples, but still beings that are worthy in the eyes of the Valar. Saruman, by contrast, actually becomes evil, and tries to overthrow the Enemy and take his place as the new dark lord.
Does this difference in the degree of failure, or departure from their intended purpose, set Saruman and Radagast apart as far as their punishments, as it were, for their actions? And, if there is a difference, then how seriously and for what reason do the Blue Wizards depart their intended purpose?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 18 2008, 4:09pm
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But I'd think they kept in a lot closer touch and cooperated and coordinated a lot more than the Western Wizards. I'd imagine that's why two close friends were chosen in the first place. On the other hand even in Valarland there did seem to be some personal friction between Olorin and Curumo. And unfortunately Radagast seems one of those those poor people born to be exploited by others. But to a large extent all that didn't matter because the three Western Wizards had a lot of allies like Elrond and Galadriel. On the other other hand the two Eastern Wizards would tend to have only each other for support.
Again, just a thought.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 18 2008, 5:04pm
Post #15 of 25
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True, blue is a primary color and has many shades. And the three Western Wizards are also blue. Brown, grey, and white are all neutral colors, made out of varying percentages of the three primary colors, red, yellow and blue.
I have no idea why that would be significant.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 18 2008, 7:20pm
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Why are the blue wizards so popular?
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I am always baffled by this.
The first time they "appear", it is in Saruman's line about the "staffs of the five wizards". Tolkien did not have much in mind by that line, beyond its mathematical symmetry in Saruman's list. Being Tolkien, he decided to ride this new swell, and after a few years of paddling he stood up and added the stuff in the LotR Appendices about Allatar and Pallando (and shot the tube with the short but detailed passage on their origins in the Istari essay/story in Unfinished Tales). They go East, never to be heard from again, but probably falling into evil or coming to evil ends.
Near the end of his life, Tolkien changed the story in his unpublished notes: now it seemed they were effective in keeping the Easterlings under control, and so they contributed to the triumph of the West in their own way!
As noted already in this thread, one can fanfictively spin all kinds of stories to reconcile these tidbits of non-information. To me though, Tolkien simply changed his mind about the essential nature of the Blue Wizards' quest, from futility to effectiveness. I think it is a weak change, and much less likely as well. Why did he do it? I wonder if he felt that Saruman's fall should be more unique, so that only one wizard truly fails, and so the Order of the Istari, the messengers of the Valar, should not appear to be so hopelessly outclassed by Sauron!
I think the inconsistency of Tolkien's ideas about these guys is a classic case of why it is dangerous to get too deeply into "Middle-earth Studies" with questions like, what "really" happened with the Blue Wizards. Since the second version didn't exist when Tolkien published LotR, why should we even credit it in our understanding of that greater story? On the other hand, he came up with it later, and maybe it represents what he wished he had written. Should that new version go into future editions of the LotR Appendices, like "others" for "other" in Aragorn's line in the "Riders of Rohan" chapter of LotR now being discussed?
Of course not. But it is important, I think, not to treat the so-called "Legendarium" as one giant story with a single underlying history that can be "pieced together" by correctly "interpreting" the various texts that Tolkien wrote. The Blue Wizards: in the 1950s they did one thing and were one pair of guys. In the 1970s they did another thing, and were, to some degree, a different pair of guys. When we ask who the "Blue Wizards" were, we should never try to simplify the complex and contradictory aspects of Tolkien's creativity.
When I took on the commission of writing the article "The East" for the J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, one of the few specifics the editors asked me to incorporate was: The Blue Wizards! I was astonished, because I really didn't think they are very important, at all, in Tolkien's writings or his mythologies. Nothing I came across in my extensive research into the texts and the scholarship changed my mind. And in the end I left them out (without asking the editors, either), since any mention at all would have required an irreducibly long and complex sentence (as above) in a very short (500 words total) article.
So my final question is, why? Why do the insignificant Blue Wizards continue to attract and entice so many readers, even including the very professional and sophisticated Tolkienists who edited the Encyclopedia?
P.S. Although I do admire the observation here that they are another example of Tolkien's obsession with twins!
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visualweasel
Rohan
Apr 18 2008, 7:37pm
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So my final question is, why? Why do the insignificant Blue Wizards continue to attract and entice so many readers, even including the very professional and sophisticated Tolkienists who edited the Encyclopedia?
To venture a more succinct answer, hahae, I think it all boils down to this: people are incurably curious about the Blue Wizards precisely because so little is said about them, and what is, is contradictory. They're mysterious. And people love mysteries. That, if nothing else, seems to be at the heart of most Middle-earth studies, wouldn't you say? Filling in the gaps, solving the cruces?
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 18 2008, 8:43pm
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They impress people with their powers. They decide that the easiest way to spread reform is to allow people to worship them, thus greatly increasing their influence. No need to fuss with long explanations, just say, "Trust me, I'm God."
The one problem with this is: ''
'They were forbidden to match power with power & reveal themselves in forms of majesty.'
Just by doing so, they, like Saruman, would be grasping for power & worshipping themselves......
That's the "failure" part.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 19 2008, 2:15pm
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Here's one possibility (fanfic link)
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Chip of Dale (I haven't seen him on these new boards yet) wrote a good fan novel, The Falcon: The Adventures of Peregrin Took", a post-LotR story about Pippin, in which the fate of one of the blue wizards plays a part.
As for what really happened to them...no one knows - not even Tolkien.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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SmeagoloftheStoors
Lorien
Apr 19 2008, 9:32pm
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So this is going to be brief. I think that the Blue wizards were to be understood as emesaries. Rather like the prophets of the Old Testamnet. They were sent simply to prepare the way for peace, with limited success. As for thier apparently uniform appearence, maybe it has to do with thier jobs. Or posibly their level of power, (just a thought). It is important to understand that this is realy not a history, but rather the work of an individual creativity. It is fun to imagine and fill in the blanks though. I for one haven't researched the Istari much since the overall story and the side story of Smeagol are my favorite points, but I do agree that the lack of information is the key factor of the interest. Research on known things is easy and you don't get to come to your own conclusions.
Eglario Valar!
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 20 2008, 11:55pm
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So my final question is, why? Why do the insignificant Blue Wizards continue to attract and entice so many readers,
The Blue Wizards are really not that much of a subject of fans 'persevertating' when compared to the two great objects of Tolkien Reader's compulsion in comparison to importance:
Glorfindel
Balrogs
These two minor characters attract so much attention in comparison to their importance that it is simply mind boggling.
Why?
I guess because Glorfindel is the one High Elf we see in full action (plus he came back from the dead) & Durin's Bane is the one evil Maia we see in full action......
Near the end of his life, Tolkien changed the story in his unpublished notes: now it seemed they were effective in keeping the Easterlings under control, and so they contributed to the triumph of the West in their own way!
I don't think we can ever say that 'Tolkien changed the story' just because he wrote an unpublished paper later in life that his son then chose to pull out of a pile of notes & publish after his father's death. Or, in this case, two, unpublished papers.......
What would or wouldn't JRR Tolkien have decided himself to have made the finished story?
Perhaps he would've decided that no information on the two other wizards would be published after all.
Maybe Tolkien thought the two opposing stories were indeed compatable because the information about the Blue Wizard's later actions came from the Far East after Sauron's Fall & were therefore only rumors that could not be substantiated?
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 21 2008, 12:39am
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I think that minor characters will always fascinate us because by their very nature we cannot know much about them, which increases their value as mysteries. Nobody has to speculate as to whether hobbits have wings, because we know everything about hobbit physiology from the tops of their curly heads to their furry toes.
(Well, on further reflection, that's a bad example--I do speculate quite a bit on what makes hobbits so much tougher when they're seemingly softer--but again, that's only because it's never been explained.)
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Apr 21 2008, 12:40am)
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stormcrow20
Gondor
Apr 21 2008, 6:54am
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because they are insignificant and mysterious. Visualweasel nailed it, at least how I see it. People are fascinated by wizards, and also by mystery and the unkown. So, two more Tolkien-wizards...with little information given about them equals "Ooh, interesting! So that's who Saruman was talking about!"
Isn't the unseen villain/creature in the shadows often scarier and/or more intriguing than one you actually see? Like Sauron? Same idea, in my opinion.
So my final question is, why? Why do the insignificant Blue Wizards continue to attract and entice so many readers, even including the very professional and sophisticated Tolkienists who edited the Encyclopedia?
~~~~~~
Círdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.
'Take this ring, master,' he said, 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.'
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vtboyarc
Lorien
Apr 21 2008, 5:15pm
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I've always been fascinated by the blue wizards! You should get the book "Unfinished Tales" and read the chapter "The Istari" (and the rest of the book!)
I personally think that they died by the Easterlings, or became evil, and leaders for them. Or maybe Saruman killed them. In the Letters of Tolkien, he says he didn't write more about them because he didn't know anymore about them!
Theres some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and its worth fighting for.
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Lord of Magic
Bree
Feb 26 2010, 7:30pm
Post #25 of 25
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The colors are actually quite significant if you think about it.
Sarumon was white, the leader. Gandalf himself says that he wasn't always evil. White is purity, the purity of service that Saruman diverts from(thus becoming Many Colors) and the service that Gandalf inherits.
Grey is humility(also poverty, but that is usually given to brown more often). Both Círdan and Galadriel sees Gandalfs potential, Círdan gives him Narya and Galadriel wants him to head the White Counsel, but Gandalf seeks to be obscure, wandering among the people as a hermit and pilgrim.
Brown is poverty, but I think in this case it means more an affiliation for nature, which suits Radagast's role.
Blue is fidelity and trust. The wizards were sent to be a force against Sauron, so anything other than serving Sauron or doing nothing, in my mind, would consist in failure. And service to Sauron would not fit in with their color.
Former Duke of Stardock, Overseer of the Paraphysical Army of Tokidoki, High Mage in Service to King Lyam conDoin I of Rillanon, The Absolute Lord, Ruler, and Sovereign of all Tokidoki.
The White Dragon and Arnölé, The Lord of All Magic
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