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soulive185
Registered User
Apr 13 2008, 6:36pm
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Dreams in LOTR
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Hi. Im writing a paper on Tolkien's use of dreams in LOTR and I am having trouble remembering every dream in the Trilogy. Obviously, I have been looking at the section in Tom Bombadil's house and Faramir and Boromir's dreams, but after that I am having trouble. Any help from you scholars would be greatly appreciated.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 13 2008, 9:20pm
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Dreams--my favorite topic! (As my name implies.) Let's see--Frodo dreamed of Gandalf's imprisonment, although I am not sure where in the story that is. I do know that he mentions the dream at the Council of Elrond. There's Faramir and Boromir's dream of the Imladris poem, of course, but also remember Faramir recounting, in the Houses of Healing, his dreams of Numenor succumbing to a tidal wave. The interesting thing about that dream was that Tolkien had interposed his own recurring dream onto Faramir, and once he wrote that, he stopped having it. However, one of his sons then started having it. There's Frodo's dream of sailing to the west, and seeing the rain part like a crystal curtain to reveal the Undying lands. I think that might have been mentioned several times. In contrast, see Tolkien's poem, "The Sea Bell", subtitled, "Frodo's Dreme", which shows a more nightmarish scenario on the same theme. Frodo had a dream in the snows of Mt. Caradhras where he returns to Bilbo, who scolds him for coming back with too little to report. Frodo had a number of dreams of peace in Mordor that helped him to keep going. In the Hobbit, Bilbo dreamed about being back at Bag End, looking for something missing, though he wasn't sure what. I am sure I'm missing some important ones. If I think of them, I will tell you--or someone else might be good enough to fill in the one's I'm missing. Is this for a literature class, or a psychology class, or are you studying oneirology? On the topic of dreams in general, a good resource might be www.iasdreams.org. But if you go on the message boards and specifically ask anything about dreams related to Tolkien, they'll probably refer you right back to me, as I have become notorious there for my Tolkienesque dreaming!.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 14 2008, 2:05am
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"Dream Visions in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings" by Amy M. Amendt-Raduege. It can be found in Tolkien Studies, vol. III (2006). It's not perfect, but inclues some good observations on Tolkien's use of dreams generally, and in particular on how his use of dreams relates to medieval ideas on the subject. Amendt-Raduege also has a good bibliography leading to other works. One essay I don't recommend is Jared Lobdell's entry on "Dreams" in the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia (see a review here).
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Apr. 7-13 for "The Departure of Boromir".
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 14 2008, 2:44am
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Personally, I'd be interested to know more about Tolkien's own dreams, especially but not exclusively those pertaining to Middle Earth.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 14 2008, 3:23am
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Frodo dreamed of Gandalf's imprisonment, although I am not sure where in the story that is. That happens during the hobbits' first night at Bombadil's house. And the dream of Valinor comes during the second night.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Apr. 7-13 for "The Departure of Boromir".
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soulive185
Registered User
Apr 14 2008, 3:52am
Post #6 of 13
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wow! thanks a lot. It is for a literature class, but my interest in psychology and dreams in general is partially responsible for the topic choice.
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Laerasëa
Tol Eressea
Apr 14 2008, 4:16am
Post #7 of 13
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Faramir's Numenor dream (and in the movie- Eowyn's dream) was based on one of Tolkien's dreams that he had a lot, I think- I can't really remember- it was in one of the Appendices of one of the movies (and I can't remember which movie, either, haha )- but I believe that he wanted to incorporate it into his work, so he could have a way of writing it down, and publishing it in his novels- I think that his dream of a tidal wave actually came before he "invented" Numenor. (speaking of Tolkien's dreams...)
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squire
Half-elven
Apr 14 2008, 7:34pm
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A very good book that tackles the subject of dreams in Tolkien
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See if you can get a copy of A Question of Time by Verlyn Flieger, Kent State U. Press, 1997, paperback 2000. Flieger analyzes how Tolkien uses the psychological dream-state to accomplish time travel, both in The Lord of the Rings, and in his uncompleted novel, The Notion Club Papers. Like all of Flieger's writings on Tolkien it is brilliant yet readable. Amendt-Raduege's article in Tolkien Studies III, which N. E. Brigand mentions above, does not cite Flieger's book, but rather its predecessor article -- which unfortunately can only be found in the out-of-print and impossible-to-find Tolkien Centenary Conference Proceedings of 1993. Flieger's book is, you'll be glad to know, in print and available from, say, Amazon. Amendt-Radeuge's other citations are split between academic studies of dreams in medieval literature, and articles about Tolkien's use of dreams. In the latter category are Flieger (as mentioned); Tom Shippey's indispensable JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century; one piece from English Studies in Canada (1978); and three from the respectable but very hard to locate Mythlore (1983, 1987, and 1996). One of the Mythlore articles is Sean Lindsay's "The Dream System in The Lord of the Rings" (13:3, 1987), and Amendt-Radeuge says that Lindsay identifies 46 direct references to dreams. A-R adds that "when the search is expanded to include 'visions,' I count nearly one hundred". Good luck with your paper, and if you have the time and energy, could you come back and let us know how it went or even share it with us?
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Apr 15 2008, 12:36am
Post #9 of 13
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I found two descriptions of this dream. In Letter #257 to Christopher Bretherton (16 July 1964), Tolkien tells of incorporating some aspects of his mythology into LotR: "Another ingredient, not before mentioned, also came into operation in my need to provide a great function for Strider-Aragorn. What I might call my Atlantis-haunting. This legend or myth or dim memory of some ancient history has always troubled me. In sleep I had the dreadful dream of the ineluctable Wave, either coming out of the quiet sea, or coming in towering over the green inlands. It still occurs occasionally, though now exorcized by writing about it. It always ends by surrender, and I awake gasping out of deep water. I used to draw it or write bad poems about it." And from Letter #276 to Dick Plotz (12 September 1965): "N. [Númenor] is my personal alteration of the Atlantis myth and/or tradition, and accommodation of it to my general mythology. Of all the mythical or 'archetypal' images this is the one most deeply seated in my imagination, and for many years I had a recurrent Atlantis dream: the stupendous and ineluctable wave advancing from the Sea or over the land, sometimes dark, sometimes green and sunlit." I'll leave you to find out what "ineluctable" means! What is most curious is that one of Tolkien's sons, I think it was Christopher, also had dreams of the Wave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Laerasëa
Tol Eressea
Apr 15 2008, 12:43am
Post #10 of 13
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thanks! (I really need to get to reading some of his letters...they're referenced so often, and I've only read one!! He writes letters like he writes books, imho, which makes them more interesting to read, I think) and honestly, who wouldn't have dreams like that if they did that much of Tolkien's posthumous work! Haha, if I did that much work, I'd be dreaming Tolkien-realated anythings every night! lol Thanks for that, though- I've actually been wondering where that came from for a while- I really like the Numenor story (although it still makes me snicker slightly to read one of the Elvish names for it is Atalante)- and it is almost certainly one of my favorite stories from the Sil! and...*giggle* ok... ineluctible= inescapable- comes from "in" which means "not" and "ex" which means "out of," which often drops the x before a consonant, and "luctari" which means "to struggle," all from Latin (sorry, huge fascination with etymology here...)
(This post was edited by laerasea on Apr 15 2008, 12:51am)
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dernwyn
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Apr 15 2008, 2:42am
Post #12 of 13
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I was looking for that reference, earlier! That's an interesting way to compare those two brothers - although one might say that Christopher has some more Boromir-type qualities, with what seems to be an aggressive desire to allow no one else to wield his father's "Ring".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Apr 15 2008, 2:44am
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Very good! *gives laerasea a virtual gold star* //
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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