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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 7:45pm
Post #51 of 73
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readers even know who Frodo is when they read that note in the Prologue? I don't think so. Would they remember the note after they are properly introduced to Frodo? I doubt it.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 8 2008, 8:45pm
Post #52 of 73
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In the next day or two Frodo went through his papers and his writings with Sam, and he handed over his keys. There was a big book with plain red leather covers; its tall pages were now almost filled. At the beginning there were many leaves covered with Bilbo's thin wandering hand; but most of it was written in Frodo's firm flowing script. It was divided into chapters but chapter 80 was unfinished, and after that were some blank leaves.
The title page had many titles on it, crossed out one after another, so:
My Diary. My Unexpected Journey. There and Back Again. And What Happened After.
Adventures of Five Hobbits. The Tale of the Great Ring, compiled by Bilbo Baggins from his own observations and the accounts of his friends. What we did in the War of the Ring.
Here Bilbo's hand ended and Frodo had written:
THE DOWNFALL OF THE LORD OF THE RINGS AND THE RETURN OF THE KING (as seen by the Little People; being the memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by the accounts of their friends and the learning of the Wise.) Together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by Bilbo in Rivendell.
"Why, you have nearly finished it, Mr. Frodo!" Sam exclaimed. "Well, you have kept at it, I must say."
"I have quite finished, Sam," said Frodo. "The last pages are for you."
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 8 2008, 9:03pm
Post #53 of 73
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this, from "Quest of Erebor", Gandalf finally explaining why Bilbo was selected to go with the Dwarves:
‘How would you select any one Hobbit for such a purpose?’ said Gandalf. ‘I had not time to sort them all out; but I knew the Shire very well by that time, although when I met Thorin I had been away for more than twenty years on less pleasant business. So naturally thinking over the Hobbits that I knew, I said to myself: “I want a dash of the Took” (but not too much, Master Peregrin) “and I want a good foundation of the stolider sort, a Baggins perhaps.”
‘That pointed at once to Bilbo. And I had known him once very well, almost up to his coming of age, better than he knew me. I liked him then. And now I found that he was “unattached” - to jump on again, for of course I did not know all this until I went back to the Shire. I learned that he had never married. I thought that odd, though I guessed why it was; and the reason that I guessed was not the one that most of the Hobbits gave me: that he had early been left very well off and his own master. No, I guessed that he wanted to remain “unattached” for some reason deep down which he did not understand himself - or would not acknowledge, for it alarmed him. He wanted, all the same, to be free to go when the chance came, or he had made up his courage. '
What was it that Bilbo did not understand, or that would "alarm" him? That solitude was an effect of the Ring? Or was it something else? Mystery abounds! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 9:03pm
Post #54 of 73
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I said there is nothing in the text until the final chapter, or perhaps it is the penultimate chapter.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 8 2008, 9:09pm
Post #55 of 73
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"until the final chapter."
So let me add these:
"How long do you think I shall have here?" said Frodo to Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
"Oh, I don't know. I can't count days in Rivendell," said Bilbo. "But quite long, I should think. We can have many a good talk. What about helping me with my book, and making a start on the next? Have you thought of an ending?"
"Yes, several, and all are dark and unpleasant," said Frodo.
"Oh, that won't do!" said Bilbo. "Books ought to have good endings. How would this do: and they all settled down and lived together happily ever after?"
"It will do well, if it ever comes to that," said Frodo.
"Ah!" said Sam. "And where will they live? That's what I often wonder."
(The Ring Goes South)
and
"Ent-draughts?" said Sam. "There you go about Ents again; but what they are beats me. Why, it will take weeks before we get all these things sized up!"
"Weeks indeed," said Pippin. "And then Frodo will have to be locked up in a tower in Minas Tirith and write it all down. Otherwise he will forget half of it, and poor old Bilbo will be dreadfully disappointed."
(The Field of Cormallen)
Although why it's a problem that the real giveaway is in the final chapter I'm not sure. It's not as if we're supposed to be thinking who wrote what as we read - just that, with hindsight, certain things might look different (just as certain scenes, like Sam's eavesdropping for example, look different when you learn things that were not apparent at the time). The fact that it's in the text at all at least shows that Tolkien had this scenario in mind while writing, and that it's not some kind of afterthought dreamt up for the Appendices.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 9:21pm
Post #56 of 73
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The penultimate chapter ends with Saruman's death.
Even as a twelve-year-old, first-time reader, I got, after reading "The Grey Havens", that we were meant to take Bilbo, Frodo and Sam as the original authors of LotR. I had by then quite forgotten any hints of this from the Prologue, and only after many readings did I begin to grasp the idea that the appendices had multiple imagined authors.
But it was a long time before I started to wonder about how the history of the main text was recorded. Probably when I first started to wonder how LotR could be adapted for film (fifteen years ago?), wondering how a movie could stay with the book's limited points of view: the hobbits plus Aragorn and Gimli, so I thought. And it was only in the past couple years, because of comments on TORN, that I realized how even some moments when Frodo and Sam are present show things they couldn't know -- like that famous moment of Gollum's near repentance.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 9:49pm
Post #57 of 73
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The fact that it's in the text at all at least shows that Tolkien had this scenario in mind while writing, and that it's not some kind of afterthought dreamt up for the Appendices.
Those passages don't really tell us that Frodo did write it all down. We don't learn that until the last chapter. So we still don't know for sure what Tolkien had in mind prior to the last chapter.
Furthermore, because Frodo is identified as the writer only in the last chapter of the text, only people who have already read the book at least once would wonder about the fictional narrators for each chapter, and even then it takes some effort, I judge, to do so, just as it would take effort to remember that the hobbits aren't "really" named Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, and that Common or Westron is not "really" the same as English, and that hobbits don't "really" resemble 19th century Englishmen, and that the Shire doesn't "really" resemble the English countryside.
I hope you don't mind continuing to discuss this. I know you wondered if the conversation had gone on too long, but I think we are exploring some interesting points.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 10:08pm
Post #58 of 73
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The conceit that 'The Hobbit' is based upon Bilbo's diary is kept throughout the books quite consistently, but in the book itself there are 'modern' comments on everyother page.
Compared to that, the conceit about the authoring of LOTR is easy to sustain.
"I am sorry. I have paid" - Boromir
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Canto
Bree
Apr 8 2008, 10:52pm
Post #59 of 73
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what Tolkien precisely had in mind, all these elements as presented do begin to paint a picture that lends credence to the notion that Tolkien wished to communicate as thoroughly as possible (and as early as possible) the idea that Frodo is responsible for the primary narration. The later addendum of the Note in the Prologue taken in conjunction with brief allusions to a chronicle being written or that may be written indicate (to me) this very possibility. The question (for me) then is not, 'Does Tolkien tell us that Frodo is the narrator,' when the answer appears to be clearly "yes," but rather, 'Why doesn't Tolkien spell out Frodo's narrative role more directly in an earlier section?' I think the answers lies somewhere within the realm of when you said that most first time readers, unfamiliar not only with the characters but also the terrain and various other nuances, would easily lose focus of what extra role Frodo played outside the story.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 9 2008, 1:06am
Post #60 of 73
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Fictional histories or memoirs are quite common.
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Tolkien could have written the story in the first person, for example. Or he could have written a preface in the first person.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 9 2008, 1:09am)
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 9 2008, 2:39am
Post #61 of 73
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If Tolkien had made it too evident that Frodo had written the major portion of the narrative, it would have clued the first-time reader in on the fact that Frodo had survived to do so. He could do no more than he did.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 9 2008, 9:31am
Post #62 of 73
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That goes back to my original point; Tolkien did not mean for the reader to think of Frodo as the narrator.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 9 2008, 3:54pm
Post #63 of 73
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spoilers versus afterthoughts.
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He did, however, intend the reader to look back on the rest of the book and say, "Oh, so Frodo wrote it!" To call the notion of Frodo's authorship an afterthought makes as much sense as Gollum's destruction of the Ring being an afterthought. Just because the reader is not supposed to figure it out until the end does not mean that it went without foreshadowing or intention.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 9 2008, 5:19pm
Post #64 of 73
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Furthermore, because Frodo is identified as the writer only in the last chapter of the text, only people who have already read the book at least once would wonder about the fictional narrators for each chapter, and even then it takes some effort, I judge, to do so, just as it would take effort to remember that the hobbits aren't "really" named Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, and that Common or Westron is not "really" the same as English, and that hobbits don't "really" resemble 19th century Englishmen, and that the Shire doesn't "really" resemble the English countryside.
There are a lot of hidden things in LotR, things that you are very unlikely to spot on first reading, but that are there for a purpose. Some things, like the relevance of the Conspiracy Unmasked chapter to the eavesdropping scene, for example, might lead us to reassess what we read earlier in the book. The Long-Expected Party, and Bilbo's departure, take on a different, darker shade when we look back at these events with greater understanding after learning more about the Ring.
The added information about the hobbits' real names, etc., that you mention above, are less instrinsic than the examples I mention, because they are only in the Appendices, but they are indeed yet another level of the almost obsessive detail that adds depth to LotR.
I would suggest that Frodo's narration could be thought of in the first category, since it's (eventually) made quite clear in the text, leaving us to reassess what we've read, if we care to. It's not entirely impossible for the "alert reader" to know about Frodo's authorship from the start, since it's in the Prologue, but for most first-time readers, the story itself is quite enough to be going on with. But there's so much more waiting for the second-time reader, or even the first-time reader who is willing to reassess things in the light of new information as it becomes available.
Actually I've been wondering if it might be better to think of Frodo, Sam and Bilbo as "chroniclers" rather than narrators, because they seem to think of themselves as historians, not as individuals telling their own stories exclusively. In this kind of writing, there's no reason why one chronicler might not feel it perfectly appropriate to add or correct things written by one of the others, if they had better information. And none of them would feel it was appropriate to use the first person for this collaborative effort.
Overall, I think it can be interesting to wonder if Tolkien was imagining one or other of the hobbits as the source for a particular part of the story, but I'm certainly not suggesting that there's a solvable puzzle here, or that there's any way of telling who wrote what. However I find that the changing points of view throughout the story do fit in quite well with this general idea. And it works to explain, too, why almost all the other characters are observed from the outside, so that we are left to interpret their actions for ourselves. There are also the many instances of things "seeming" to happen, and this also makes me think that witnesses or chroniclers who are not omniscient are telling the story. These are things that don't need to be considered in order for the story to be enjoyed. They are just things that keep you coming back, and seeing new texture in a story you thought you knew.
(No objections from me about continuing the discussion, as you can see!)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:56am
Post #65 of 73
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Tolkien was not wounded in the Great War.
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I will acknowledge right off that I have heard so many contradictory accounts of Tolkien's medical discharge (including in different published biographies) that I might have reconstructed it erroneously. But as near as I can figure out, he sustained a wound that should not have been serious, which became complicated by a mysterious high fever with a psychosomatic element … By all accounts Sam was based on the valiant bat-boy who got Tolkien out alive after his wounding.
Tolkien was not wounded: he contracted trench fever, a disease spread by lice. Sam was based on batmen that Tolkien knew (see Mark Hooker’s article here) but there was no such rescue.
I remember my utter shock when I first read Tolkien's bizarre praise of the poppy, left out of The Silmarillion.
Do you remember where you read this?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:57am
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…might be more convincing if Tolkien presented rather than paraphrased them.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:58am
Post #67 of 73
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:58am
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…on October 6, and Tolkien wrote elsewhere that Frodo set out in order to reach Elvenhome before the anniversary of his wounding on Weathertop on that date.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:00am
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Frodo agrees that this is “just one of [Mordor’s] works...”, but I think his perspective is better than Sam’s.
How do you know that statement isn’t Frodo as Sam later chose to think of him, as he finished up the Red Book? Or the work of some later editor? As Dreamdeer writes, “one can only guess” who wrote which parts of real manuscripts – and the same is true here. We should be very careful in using these guesses as the basis for speculation on the meaning of the text. And also that Tolkien’s mistakes aren’t explained away as being merely reflections of the bias of some imagined author.
In another response to this thread, you wrote:
Tolkien does tell us quite specifically who the authors of LotR are, as well as its later transmission via scribes of Gondor and so on.
Tolkien only tells us who some of the authors and editors are, not all of them.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:54am
Post #70 of 73
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to be convincing.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 10:00am
Post #71 of 73
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When we last see Frodo, the sun is rising after at least one night of sailing. But Sam seems to return home the same night that he saw Frodo off. Or does he? I guess I always read it that way, but perhaps the hobbits camped along the way. It would be a long ride back to the Shire, now that I think about it. I suppose they must have camped along the way. I'll have to read the ending again.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 22 2009, 10:06pm
Post #72 of 73
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One reference, but not the main one.
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I found one reference that I was looking for, in "Lost Tales I: Chapter 3" about Lorien growing poppies and using them much in his enchantments. But I distinctly recall another reference out there that I can't track down, about Manwe blessing the poppies in Irmo Lorien's garden, that struck me as really strange. Now that troubles me--maybe someone else forged it?
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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