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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Mar 31 2008, 6:04am
Post #26 of 44
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I've had the fancy Persian ones, but I'm used to the wild buttercups with only five petals. :)
They're even more difficult to photograph than the dark hybrid hellebores.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Mar 31 2008, 5:07pm
Post #27 of 44
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...I imagine that the statues are mostly carved from native rock, with some additions built in. By "facade" I meant their decorative aspect. But in the carving and the additions, I would dig in positions for archers here and there. It seems to me it would be foolish not to, not with such a superb chunk of strategic geology. If they had the technology of the ancient Greeks, in something that large they could also have easily built in long amplifying tubes, enabling someone in a hidden chamber to call out in a great, booming voice, "Halt! Who goes there?"
Much of that would now, of course, be caved in, broken down, unreachable, or simply forgotten.
As for Rauros being a "riverblock" the Fellowship wouldn't have gone that way if they had no way around it. Carry boats, climb down, repeat as needed. Whereas the Argonath effectively bottlenecks all passageway except one narrow part easily controlled from all sides. What general on earth could pass up an opportunity like that, with construction of fancy statues already going on anyway?
The founders of Gondor would not wish to block off all trade and all entry, simply control it. If they took so much trouble over the aesthetics of the Argonath, surely they would have spent at least as much energy on its practical use.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Mar 31 2008, 5:13pm)
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 31 2008, 7:12pm
Post #28 of 44
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1. Why are the “good guys” afraid here?
This is a different kind of fear, akin to respect and reverence rather than anxiety or fright. Modern egalitarian societies tend to downplay this type of feeling, but even Americans might feel it at a monument like the Lincoln Memorial. Sam, though, might genuinely fear for his life. Remember he was never comfortable in a boat.
2. Why does Aragorn say Minas Anor and not Minas Tirith?
The monuments of ancient kings call to mind the ancient name of the city. But Aragorn also looks ahead to the defeat of Sauron, when the city can relax its guard and once again be called Minas Anor, The Tower of the Setting Sun.
3. Are the Argonath a fortification?
Yes, but not the conventional sort of fortification. The immense statues are meant to strike awe into visitors, and they succeed. In the Primary World that might be all there is to it, but in Middle-earth such statues, like the river, might also have magical/spiritual powers. When Gondor was bigger, there apparently were real fortifications in this area. But now the river seems to guard itself, yet the orcs rarely dare to cross it.
The tenth day of their journey was over. Wilderland was behind them. They could go no further without choice between the east-way and the west. The last stage of the Quest was before them.
4. What’s your reaction to this summary? Does Tolkien do this sort of thing again in LotR?
It seems to me Tolkien does this sort of thing all the time, although I suppose it depends on what you mean by "this sort of thing." Frodo, in particular, is continually faced with the decision of whether to go forward with the Quest. This is neither the first nor the last time he will make that choice.
I find the summary interesting because it is so very wrong, or even deliberately misleading. The summary makes it sound as if they are at the steps of Mount Doom. "The last stage of the Quest was before them." Ha! They have a long, long way to go yet. I'm sure that Frodo did think of it as the last stage, now that he was just a few miles from the Black Gates of Mordor. The narrator seems to purposely give us Frodo's point of view here, rather than revealing what Frodo doesn't know, i.e. that he is a long way from his goal. This means that we will identify with Frodo and Sam's sense of frustration when they cannot easily find a way to Mordor or into Mordor or through Mordor, all because the narrator misleads us into thinking that the Quest is entering its "last stage."
5. What does the Great River symbolize? Time, a road, a threshold, a dream…? (You might enjoy Modtheow’s interesting post from last week.)
The Great River is, on the one hand, Bilbo's Road (the one he and Frodo sing about) come to life, literally sweeping Frodo and the company along to Mordor. The Great River is also a border, though, between Sauron's East and the Free Peoples of the West. It seems like a magical or spiritual border of some kind, guarded by Unseen Powers, because Rohan and Gondor seemingly do little to guard the border. Here the Great River also represents the indecision of the Fellowship, with their decision deferred for ten days by Celeborn's gift of boats.
Then again, the Great River also represents another major step in Frodo's Quest, another river he must cross, here literally marking the divide between the West and the East. Frodo has already crossed several rivers, and each crossing seemed significant, but this crossing will be the most significant of all, for Frodo is not merely crossing into the unknown; he is crossing into Enemy Territory.
So yes, it is a road and a threshhold. It represents time running out as they head towards the falls and the moment they must make a decision. Does it represent a dream? Perhaps a nightmare is more like it, or leaving a dream for a harsh and bitter reality. Remember that when Frodo returns to the Shire, he says it feels like he is "falling asleep again."
6. I can think of a couple of other of Tolkien’s river stories – Bilbo’s escape on the Forest River and Frodo at the Ford of Bruin[en]. How do these river incidents compare?
Bilbo traveled on a river but only for a short distance. And the river on which he traveled did not mark a border, as I recall. The magical stream he crossed in Mirkwood might be a closer parallel to the Anduin, since it did mark a border and a point of no return. The Long Lake might be a closer parallel to water as a means to guard against evil, for Laketown was built upon the water as a means of protection. The river that fed into Long Lake doesn't strike me as particularly significant.
The Ford of Bruinen protected Frodo, and I believe that the Anduin protects Frodo as well, but much more subtly. I prefer to compare the Anduin to the Brandywine, which I believe also provides a subtle protection, also involving a mysterious fog. In some ways the Bruinen is more like the Silverlode, guarding a land of Elves, whereas the Brandywine guards the Shire, and the Anduin guards not just the elves of Lothlorien but also Rohan and Gondor and, by implication, the Shire, even though the Shire is far off. The Anduin is the first line of defense; the Brandywine the last. (Of course the Enemy has already infiltrated the Shire through Lotho, as he infiltrated Rohan through Saruman, but infiltration through betrayal is different from full-scale assault.)
(This post was edited by Curious on Mar 31 2008, 7:15pm)
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 31 2008, 9:39pm
Post #29 of 44
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4. What’s your reaction to this summary? Does Tolkien do this sort of thing again in LotR? I think "Caradhras has defeated them" at the end of 'The Ring Goes South' is in accord with this summary, and the end of 'The Bridge of Khazad-dum' gives the same impression. To me, the end of 'The Passage of the Marshes' is even more effective, in giving the sense of the end of the previous satge, and a new start (with pretty bleak prospects). But it would be intersting to compare the closing passage, with the one at the end of 'A Warm Welcome' in The Hobbit: So one day, although autumn was now getting far on, and winds were cold, and leaves were falling fast, three boats left Lake-town, laden with rowers, dwarves, Mr. Baggins, and many provisions. Horses and ponies had been sent around by circuitous paths to meet them at their appointed landing-place. The Master and his councillors bade them farewell from the great steps of the town-hall that went down to the lake. People sang on the quays and out of windows. The white oars dipped and splashed, and off they went north on the last stage of their long journey. The only person thoroughly unhappy was Bilbo. The last stage again. It starts and ends on gloomy notes, even though the middle seems very cheerful and optimistic. Like in our chapter, we get the feeling all the adventures up to now were just parts of the scenery, and now our real business will start. Any other comments?
"For many long years I have pondered" - Galadriel
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Mar 31 2008, 11:50pm
Post #30 of 44
(538 views)
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A Condensed Version of the Discussion of The Great River
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Black Swans
Curious suggested that “ Tolkien was quite aware of the story of black swans, and symbolically associated them with Aragorn and his unlikely destiny.” FarFromHome recounted a previous discussion where “I think we mostly agreed that the swans may symbolise royalty, and the black colour might symbolise rarity (since black swans were long thought not to exist), and might stand for Gondor as well (since this is the colour of the royal house of Gondor, as seen on Aragorn's banner). ... Like the black swans, the Heir of Isildur is a legend who is about to prove that he is for real!” Darkstone elaborates: “They are a symbol of the impossible made possible. A vagabond ranger may become king. A Dwarf and an Elf may become friends. Hardheaded Boromir may recognize his error and repent. M&P may become great warriors and wise leaders. Samwise may become the hero of the story. Frodo and his fool’s errand may succeed.”
Frodo’s bedtime
Isis thinks “Frodo is either genuinely worn out by his burden, and/or evading company/discussion at this point.” Darkstone had “always imagined they left Frodo sleeping in the boat.” Curious points out, “ It's not the first time Frodo wakes up tucked into a strange bed, nor the last -- Rivendell is the first, I think, and the Field of Cormallen the last that I recall.” FarFromHome explains that “By having hobbits as his heroes, Tolkien is able to combine two apparently contradictory elements - maturity and childishness.”
Pacing
White Gull suggested that “their slow paddling is in accord with Aragorn's gratitude of the gift of the boats. He was glad his decision of what to do was postponed.” Darkstone doesn’t see the point in paddling since “Gollum isn’t going to have any trouble keeping up.” He notes that Aragorn is “literally letting The Quest drift along.” Lacrimae Rerum describes the mood:
To my mind the Great river passages always had that sense of impending narrative. The boats may be sedately drifting downstream on the current, but as typified by the swan, beneath the surface things are moving quickly, almost frantically (Gollum, Borromir, Uruk hai etc) The lack of wildlife is of course a classic, if not cliche, method of highlighting "summat is up" - nature knows but our heroes are (mostly) unaware of the lurking threats….The pace of the passages only compliments this tension. Even for the second-time-around-reader the sense of threat is maintained by the foreshadowing concealed in the passage.
Rauros
Menelwyn told us that Rauros means "roaring spray," according to “the Silmarillion Index. "-ros" = "foam" or "spray", as in the name of Elros.”
On Fairy Stories
Darkstone notices a reference to “On Fairy Stories”
"Anyone inheriting the fantastic device of human language can say the green sun. Many can then imagine or picture it. But that is not enough – though it may already be a more potent thing than many a ‘thumbnail sketch’ or ‘transcript of life’ that receives literary praise.
To make a Secondary World inside which the green sun will be credible, commanding Secondary Belief, will probably require labor and thought, and will certainly demand a special skill, a kind of elvish craft. Few attempt such difficult tasks. But when they are attempted and in any degree accomplished then we have a rare achievement of Art: indeed narrative art, story-making in its primary and most potent mode."
-Tolkien, On Fairy Stories
Lack of communication
FarFromHome suggests the lack of communication may be a cultural issue:
No confidences please, they're British! You don't go worrying people unnecessarily, you keep things to yourself. That's just the way it's done... Then when someone mentions it to you, you say, "yes, I knew that all along".
ElanorTX points out that Sam’s “sleep (and that of the other hobbits) is more expendable because the daytime paddling does not fall to them. we all know Sam has a consistent pattern of putting others' needs above his own.”
rest in the forest
sador contrasted “The heart of Legolas was running under the stars of a summer night in some northern glade amid the beech-woods” with Galadriel's message:
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.
What if?
Sador points out Frodo's words, in 'The Taming of Smeagol':
I should have left the Company long before, and come down from the North, east of the River and of the Emyn Muil, and so over the hard of Battle Plain to the passes of Mordor.
He speculates that “This night, he (or they) had the opportunity possibly, if not for Gollum, Frodo might have 'screwed himself up' and left.”
ME Geography
squire informed us that “the Anduin (originally a Hobbit landmark) was only added to Middle-earth's geography as the LotR and Silmarillion traditions were conjoined in the later 1940s.” “Remember that during those years Tolkien seriously hoped to publish LotR and the Sil as a pair, so he worked really hard to reconcile two story-cycles that originally had almost nothing to do with each other, geographically speaking.”
Aragorn’s issues
FarFromHome observes that:
Aragorn is the first to spot the eagle, and asks Legolas for confirmation, so he's still the most observant among them, it seems. But he seems to be unwilling to trust that the eagle might be beneficial to them. That's probably a sign of the lack of insight he seems to be suffering from at this point. He feels abandoned by Gandalf, and it seems, by the Higher Powers. His heart is not "speaking clearly", and won't again until Fate has taken its course and Frodo has made his own choice. He is, as he says himself, out of his reckoning - in more ways than one.
Darkstone points out that “ Gandalf’s last words were of his secret plan: “Fly you fools!” Aragorn should have flagged Gwaihir down and done the quick short flight into Mordor, drop the ring down the pickle barrel, then flown to Minas Tirith for the coronation, right in time for the end of FOTR. But instead we have to wait two more volumes. Not that I’m complaining.”
Gwaihir’s goof
sador points out that Aragorn isn’t the only one off his game:
Gwaihir did miss something important. He saw the Nazgul hovering above the River, and concluded (correctly) they were not allowed to cross it and reveal themselves yet. But sometime after this attack, a Nazgul did cross the River, or at least flew someone above it, unnoticed by the eagle. He has missed Grishnakh.
A feather in his cap
Sador is reminded of 'The Bridge of Khazad-dum', when, just before the bridge, “Frodo is saved by the mithril coat, and the leader gets a feather in his cap.”
Unfamiliar words
Dreamdeer suggest Tolkien used so many archaic words “Because he passionately loved old words, and because he deeply regretted many of them falling out of fashion and so he wanted to bring them back. Also because they often capture best the flavor that he wanted to convey… A writhen tree says a whole lot more than a twisty tree. “
FarFromHome informs the American discussion leader that "Brake" is “a standard term for a kind of woodland in England, and … most people familiar with British countryside would know it.”
visualweasel explains that:
“Writhen” subtly evokes “wraith” just at the point where the Fellowship is beginning to draw nearer to Sauron’s abode.
And that
Yrch (singular orch) … Within the legendarium, … derives from the Eldarin root órok “goblin” (cf. Black Speech uruk, as in Uruk-hai, and Quenya orko). From outside it (that is, from the influence of Primary World languages), the word traces its sources to the Old English orcneas “monsters” of Beowulf (which is turn derive from Latin orcus “hell, the underworld, the god of same”). The word ogre arises out of the same source (cf. Italian orco, Old Spanish huergo, uerco “a hobgoblin, demon”).
Elbereth Gilthoniel
Dreamdeer thinks that when Legolas sighes “Elbereth Gilthoniel!”, “he doubtless feels the Black Breath, …Basically, in a distinctly more elegant elvish way, he is sighing, "Oh my God!"”
Legolas’ crown of stars
Beren IV suggests that Legolas’ crown of stars may be “Varda may be answering her hero's call. Varda is the Lady of the Stars, after all.”
sador suggests that when Frodo sees Legolas crowned with stars, he is remembering Gimli's song:
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
And saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.
Darkstone supposes:
The crown of stars is a sign to Durin that he is destined to build a colony in nearby Khazad-dum.
Legolas is destined to build an Elf-colony in nearby Ithilien.
Legolas’ big shot
Beren IV reminds me that “In Gondor, the better part of the heroic killing is already done by the time Legolas is on the scene.” Sador adds that “before the attack on the black Gate, the Nazgul appear and fly "high and out of sight of all save Legolas", i.e. out of bowshot. They have learned the lesson.”
Frodo’s faux pas
Isis wonders if Frodo’s slip about Galadriel’s ring may be because “he's still under Galadriel's 'spell” or “is he under the power of the One Ring when he lets this information slip?”
Dreamdeer observes that after Lothlorien:
…obviously Boromir changed, giving in to his temptations. Frodo changed by becoming sure of his course and insistent upon the road to Mordor no matter what anyone else says. Sam changes into someone who can put the mission ahead of all other considerations. Legolas and Gimli change by setting aside their prejudices and becoming friends. Aragorn changes by becoming officially engaged by elf standards as opposed to wishing to become engaged--which implies an engagement also with kingship. How do Merry and Pippin change? … Any ideas out there?
Sador remembers Boromir and Frodo’s shared experience with the Nazgul:
Boromir realises he has a moment of understanding with Frodo, better than the rest of the fellowship. He senses his doubt and fear, and need for relief from his burden (which was why he offered the Ring two chapters ago, to the only other of 'the good guys' who confessed to desiring it) - and some hope that he might be trusted more by the Ringbearer enters his heart.
Power grab possibilities
In the absence of Aragorn and Legolas, Dreamdeer thinks Boromir and Frodo would struggle to lead. Darkstone thinks Boromir is the obvious choice (but that it’s “odd that if Aragorn had his suspicions he would have left Boromir behind rather than taking him along), but his money would be on Merry.
Boromir’s dissatisfaction
Tolkien Forever says, “Boromir's just grumpy with everyone at this point as lust for the Ring is eating him up. Plus, he's probably got a huge ego from being a spoiled brat to begin with.......” Curious adds, “It's all a ploy to persuade the company to abandon the "cockle-boats" and come to Minas Tirith. And Boromir also has leadership issues. It's a wonder he got along so well with his father. I would think he would drive any leader crazy.” ArathornJax thinks “that Boromir is grumbling because he is a soldier and wants action, not strategy. Also, the ring is bearing on him and beginning to take its toll on him.” Darkstone defends Boromir’s grumbling, “It’s a soldier thing. Really, the time to get worried is when a soldier isn’t grumbling. That’s when trouble is brewing.”
Dreamdeer defends Boromir:
Aragorn has not been doing the best job possible, and someone like Boromir, groomed intensively to lead, can hardly help but sniff out the power vacuum and desire to pry it open wider, perhaps to create a window of opportunity for himself.
Aragorn needs Boromir to keep on confronting him. ... He's too focused on himself, and misses too much.
When my grandfather was promoted, in the field, from the ranks to Chief Petty Officer (the naval equivalent of a sergeant) he had no time for training on how to lead much beyond this one essential nugget: "Do something even if it's wrong!" …
sador points out that:
…the high seat didn't help Aragorn much, did it? It kept him away while the Fellowship was disintegrating…Aragorn isn't going there in search of information, but of inspiration. Like a returning king, he wants to view his country from afar, and perhaps pray for the ability to rise to the stature of Isildur and Anarion. Maybe there he will decide on his course.
Boromir knows his course. And he "knows" what the Fellowship should do. Why waste time?
a cockle-boat
Darkstone reminds us of:
"Tom Bombadil!
Whither be you going,
Bobbing in a cockle-boat,
Down the river rowing?"
-Bombadil Goes Boating
Darkstone accuses Boromir of giving Faramir lots of noogies.
Darkstone suggests that Gimli and Boromir’s banter is “a guy thing. Boromir doubtless respects Gimli a great deal.” FarFromHome thinks the banter “between Boromir and Gimli might not necessarily be completely light-hearted. Bantering between guys can be pretty competitive, and may conceal some real rivalry. After all, Gimli began this with a boast of the old Anglo-Saxon type, and boasts like that were far from being light-hearted jests.” Sador observes, “Boromir doesn't seem a very nice person. And Gimli seems to be a boaster, who might become a butt-end when he fails to prove himself (consider his arguments with Legolas about resting on the chase after the Uruk-hai, and his near-failure to take the Paths of the Dead). Which means the movies weren't that wrong.”
Argonath
Tolkien Forever thinks, “"Fear not" means moreso "Don't be intimidated" than "Don't be afraid".” ArathornJax thinks “ It is possible that the Hobbits had some fear as the water seemed to gather to a central point and then moved rapidly through the narrow point. I can see this more because of Hobbit fears of the water.” Isis suggests “Boromir has obvious reasons for being wary of passing "under the enduring shadow of the sentinels of Númenor". He doesn't want to be 'seen' because he has something to hide. He has a hidden agenda, one which opposes the intent of the heir of Numenor.” Beren IV thinks the Argonath “are magical and evoke feelings of fear and apprehension in the hearts of those who are not of the people who made these statues.” Dreamdeer agrees and adds that at least the facade might hide archers either side of the water. Curious says, “The immense statues are meant to strike awe into visitors, and they succeed. In the Primary World that might be all there is to it, but in Middle-earth such statues, like the river, might also have magical/spiritual powers. When Gondor was bigger, there apparently were real fortifications in this area. But now the river seems to guard itself, yet the orcs rarely dare to cross it.” ArathornJax doesn’t think the Argonath is anything more than two pillars due to lack of space.
You say “Anor,” I say “Tirith”
ArathornJax says Aragorn said “Minas Anor” because “The city was known as Minas Anor and served as a summer residence until Minis Ithil was taken and then its name was changed to Minis Tirith or Tower of the Guard, the home of the kings and guarding against the evils of Mordor. Aragorn could again be asserting his claim to the kingship here.” laerasea agrees and adds that it might be some Dunedain pride. Curious says, “The monuments of ancient kings call to mind the ancient name of the city. But Aragorn also looks ahead to the defeat of Sauron, when the city can relax its guard and once again be called Minas Anor, The Tower of the Setting Sun.”
A River runs through it
Tolkien Forever thinks “the Great River is a RIVER” and Milady cautions against over analysis. ArathornJax points out the river is a “boundary that separates the forces of Sauron from the forces of the West” and a major form of transportation. Curious writes,
The Great River is, on the one hand, Bilbo's Road (the one he and Frodo sing about) come to life, literally sweeping Frodo and the company along to Mordor. The Great River is also a border, though, between Sauron's East and the Free Peoples of the West. It seems like a magical or spiritual border of some kind, guarded by Unseen Powers, because Rohan and Gondor seemingly do little to guard the border. Here the Great River also represents the indecision of the Fellowship, with their decision deferred for ten days by Celeborn's gift of boats.
FarFromHome thinks the river is “like an extension of Lothlorien - it's on the River that the Fellowship become aware of the strange unknowableness of time, and indeed, because the speed of the River's flow is unknown, the River itself puts them "out of their reckoning". It's also, like Lothlorien, a respite for a while - a chance to postpone the hard decision that they all know is coming. It's a boundary, from which you can step either westwards, into the world of Men, or eastwards, into the land of nightmare.”
Gloomy group
Tolkien Forever says they are gloomy “Because they were tired & it was a gloomy day, plus the weight of the decision of whether to go to Mordor or Minas Tirith I suppose.”
FarFromHome remembered: "[Sam] knew that all the hazards and perils were now drawing together to a point: the next day would be a day of doom, the day of final effort or disaster, the last gasp." (Mount Doom). I suspect that Tolkien does it at great moments of decision, to step back a moment and let us see the wider context. This would be an interesting thing to look out for while reading.
How do you define “last”?
N.E. Brigand wonders why Tolkien says “The last stage of the Quest was before them” when “There will be another 35 chapters before the Quest is achieved, after all.” Curious suggests, “The narrator seems to purposely give us Frodo's point of view here, rather than revealing what Frodo doesn't know, i.e. that he is a long way from his goal. This means that we will identify with Frodo and Sam's sense of frustration when they cannot easily find a way to Mordor or into Mordor or through Mordor, all because the narrator misleads us into thinking that the Quest is entering its "last stage."”
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Curious
Half-elven
Apr 1 2008, 1:46pm
Post #32 of 44
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Ah, the return of the Summary!
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I've never done one myself, but I always appreciate them. Thanks for a great discussion!
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 1 2008, 2:17pm
Post #33 of 44
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1. Why are the “good guys” afraid here?
The hobbits are used to living in comfy snug holes, and here they’re confronted with huge statues that tower over them. They’re being agoraphobic.
Of course the statues themselves might have a “magical” fear inspiring quality about them. A “magic as innate in Numenorean construction as in Elven cooking.
2. Why does Aragorn say Minas Anor and not Minas Tirith?
“Here comes the Sun King.”
Are the Argonath a fortification?
It’s a remaining part of the total fortification. They’re watchtowers and beacons. Come on, no guy is going to build statues that tall without a way to climb to the top and look around and spit.
4. What’s your reaction to this summary?
A trinity is usually symbolic. Three darklings. Three obscure… obscure what? Persons? Fates? Tales? There’s the trinity of Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn. And in the next volume the tale will be split up into three narratives, those of Frodo and Sam, Merry and Pippin, and The Three Hunters.
5. What does the Great River symbolize? Time, a road, a threshold, a dream…?
It symbolizes drifting, a drifting towards Wyrd, a drifting towards decision. At the end of the river hard choices must be made. (And quite frankly, the decisions should have been made long before.)
(You might enjoy Modtheow’s interesting post from last week.)
Yes.
6. I can think of a couple of other of Tolkien’s river stories – Bilbo’s escape on the Forest River and Frodo at the Ford of Bruin. How do these river incidents compare?
Bilbo’s escape was his initiation as a Hero. However, Frodo’s little “Nyah-nyah-nyah! You can’t touch me…*ZZZZAAPP*” was premature, to say the least. Here is Frodo’s real transition into the role of Hero. Before everything was easy because there was always someone bigger around. From here on out it’s just going to be a little hobbit.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Apr 1 2008, 2:54pm
Post #34 of 44
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6. I can think of a couple of other of Tolkien’s river stories – Bilbo’s escape on the Forest River and Frodo at the Ford of Bruin. How do these river incidents compare?
Bilbo’s escape was his initiation as a Hero. However, Frodo’s little “Nyah-nyah-nyah! You can’t touch me…*ZZZZAAPP*” was premature, to say the least. Here is Frodo’s real transition into the role of Hero. Before everything was easy because there was always someone bigger around. From here on out it’s just going to be a little hobbit.
Wow! I hadn't thought of it like that before but you are right. (It is vaguely like baptism into heroism, I suppose, although that's a stretch.) Thanks.
(Now, I am going to google "Wyrd"...)
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Modtheow
Lorien
Apr 5 2008, 3:56am
Post #35 of 44
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I didn't have time to post all week, but this summary really helps in catching up! Thanks!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 13 2008, 4:39am
Post #36 of 44
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...for water is just wet, and flowing is "to flow". //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jun. 9-15 for "The Voice of Saruman".
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:44am
Post #37 of 44
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The name “Minas Anor” is more like “New Amsterdam” than “Manhattan”. //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:44am
Post #38 of 44
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Though I suppose it is the “last stage”
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…for the Fellowship, which is broken the next day, or for Frodo’s journey to Mount Doom, if we reckon back to his departures from either Hobbiton or Rivendell, which were 124 and 62 days ago, respectively. There will be only another 30 days until the Ring is destroyed.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:45am
Post #39 of 44
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:47am
Post #40 of 44
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Is Sauron the “Eye in the Sky”? //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:48am
Post #41 of 44
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“It’s not possible to build a human-shaped stone statue that big”
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That was also squire’s argument in the previous discussion of this chapter: in his view, most illustrators misunderstand Tolkien’s intent.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 8:48am
Post #42 of 44
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Nice connection to “The Hobbit”! //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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Beren IV
Gondor
Mar 22 2009, 6:49pm
Post #43 of 44
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But not what I am referring to
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Even with the hand part of the statue, making a pillar of rock that size is simply beyond the power of even modern technology, and probably beyond the strength of rock. Even the Trango Towers in the Karakorum, which are that size, are more hefty and stocky for their outrageous height.
The paleobotanist is back!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 24 2009, 9:17pm
Post #44 of 44
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There are some curious echoes here of “A Knife in the Dark”.
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In both chapters, there is “no sign” of danger on the first two days of travelling. On the “third day”, they pass out of the woods. Then they enter a marshy area with “reeds” amidst which “warbling” or “whistling and piping” birds can be heard. Finally, Strider emphatically says “Do not speak of such things!” in the earlier chapter, and “Speak no more of it!” here. I can’t make much of the parallels, except that they do bolster the Helms-Shippey-Curious theory on the structure of FOTR.
A couple more more questions: Are the characters’ fear of attempting the rapids meant to echo the fears of Dorlas in the “Narn”? And our heroes hear swan wings “once or twice” – which is it?
Finally, here’s a link to squire’s account of his personal encounter with the Argonath.
Thanks, Wanda!
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