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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Feb 2 2015, 2:00pm
Post #52 of 63
(504 views)
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Makes a person wonder if the whole Elf-Dwarf conflict came from an entirely different source than a misunderstanding over a mere necklace...
Tollers, Lewis said to Tolkien, there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 2 2015, 3:24pm
Post #54 of 63
(478 views)
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I don't think there would be any downside to more individual detailing within the armies. I suspect it just wasn't high on the list.
I think we can probably rest assured that the demographics of beard length isn't something on the radar of 99.99% of viewers.
I suspect we just see the fact that these films are real world objects, with all the constraints and imperfections that all real world objects have. I'm not sure I would think of it as the seams showing, but wouldn't disagree that there could have been more embroidery. But then that's always the case.
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Anubis
Rivendell
Feb 2 2015, 4:09pm
Post #55 of 63
(474 views)
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A movie is supposed to make you believe in what is being depicted on screen.
On one hand, we have 14 dwarves who couldnīt be more ifferent from each other.
On the other, we have the rest of the dwarven community, and everybody looks the same there.
It comes off a bit unbelievable, donīt you think? If you are introducing diversity in a fictional race, then why only restrict it to the main characters? I think it is a fair thing to criticize.
Also, this same team payed so much attention to detail that they even created a costume for a character who was only featured a few secs in LOTR (Gil-Galad), so I donīt see the problem of adding a beardless dwarf, for example, in the Iron Hills ranks. I mean, it is a big production after all, I really donīt think it is a problem of money or time.
Certainly, it isnīt a big issue; thereīs probably very few people that are not going to the movie because of it, and it just was not worth it, in the filmmakers minds, to add variety in the dwarf race outside Thorinīs company.
But, you know, a few dwarves with different beard colors, or with shorter/wider ones, would have been nice...
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marillaraina
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 4:11pm
Post #56 of 63
(452 views)
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Yes! That's it. Me too. Cracks me up every time I see it. It's perfect. The dwarves and elves arguing over gender.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Feb 2 2015, 4:44pm
Post #57 of 63
(430 views)
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Amazing? that the word...Silhouette hasn't
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been mentioned anywhere in all this discussion.
WHEN they are moving over Landscapes
AND really small on screen...YOU CAN
pick out which one is which..
The Fact that only one always wears a Hat
The Fact that only one is REALLY FAT..
The Fact ONE is Bald on top..
& ONLY one has a completely WHITE beard..
Only one looks like he could be Gimil's father..
Only one is a skinny wimp.
ETC...
There was a Black T-Shirt that the Backstage CREW wore
that was a simple White line across the chest
that Out-lined THE Entire company...of 15
AND Yes
you could read their SILHOUETTES ...
& Tell in an
Instant?.. which one WAS who.
Which bomby thought wazzz REALLY Cool..
sorta like 15 aspects of the Diverse personalities
of an entire Non-Human race.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Feb 2 2015, 4:48pm
Post #58 of 63
(432 views)
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... a film, play or book can't make you do anything. You have to be willing to believe.
As to the rest, I'm not convinced that every single dwarf shown apart from Thorin's company did have the same beard colour and length. They didn't, in fact: I can recall dwarves in Dale and among the Erebor dead who certainly didn't, and different looks among the dwarves in the Azanulbizar flashback. Thror's beard and Thrain's were totally different again in style and colour.
I didn't look for individuals among the dwarves of the Iron Hills apart from Dain, who looked different again. His army wore heavy helmets and armour and if you measured their beards I'm afraid I didn't - I have more interesting things to watch just then.
Far as I'm concerned the dwarves didn't all look the same and it never once crossed my mind that they weren't all individuals. And if it wasn't a problem for me when watching the film, I'm not going to be talked into making it one.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 5:12pm
Post #59 of 63
(434 views)
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If anything, PJ and team must have had to go to a lot of extra effort...
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... to make sure that each and every one of the dwarf extras have a prosthetic beard, when it would have been easier in many regards to have a few of the extras be beardless, like Kíli, or have a few of them use their natural beards. All that extra effort - in addition to their initial concepts and design attempts that actually had dwarves like Thorin and Bofur be longbearded - suggests to me that they really thought that there was some importance to the long beards of the dwarves, something that was worth all the effort.
Some might say that the length of the beards are irrelevant (and narratively speaking, I would be prepared to agree, much like I would agree that there is no narrative importance to Gandalf having a long beard, or for the hobbits to have fuzzy feet), but... PJ and team went to great lengths to be able to feature so very many long beards, and they were actually aiming for them to be even more prominent during the initial design process. I do find that interesting; They didn't start out with the mindset that, for example, "Thorin must be shortbearded", as they easily could have (and a great many other filmmakers would have); They genuinely thought that they could, and should, have even the most important of dwarves be longbearded. That is something I can respect, even if I don't entirely agree with what they finally settled for.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Feb 2 2015, 5:14pm)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 5:33pm
Post #60 of 63
(417 views)
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... to make sure that each and every one of the dwarf extras have a prosthetic beard, when it would have been easier in many regards to have a few of the extras be beardless, like Kíli, or have a few of them use their natural beards. All that extra effort - in addition to their initial concepts and design attempts that actually had dwarves like Thorin and Bofur be longbearded - suggests to me that they really thought that there was some importance to the long beards of the dwarves, something that was worth all the effort.
Some might say that the length of the beards are irrelevant (and narratively speaking, I would be prepared to agree, much like I would agree that there is no narrative importance to Gandalf having a long beard, or for the hobbits to have fuzzy feet), but... PJ and team went to great lengths to be able to feature so very many long beards, and they were actually aiming for them to be even more prominent during the initial design process. I do find that interesting; They didn't start out with the mindset that, for example, "Thorin must be shortbearded", as they easily could have (and a great many other filmmakers would have); They genuinely thought that they could, and should, have even the most important of dwarves be longbearded. That is something I can respect, even if I don't entirely agree with what they finally settled for.
Kili originally had a beard as well. In fact I remember there was great, if rather small, picture of Aidan in costume with that beard of his(now I love Kili as is but Turner did grow a great beard, it is sort of a shame he had to shave it) but it would have been very difficult to tell Kili and Thorin apart if they'd kept it. Sometimes it can be a little difficult as it is, usually there isn't a problem but sometimes if it's just a flash of blue in the costume and dark hair there can a be moment of "wait is that..."
I think it's just natural that as they had to put the various designs into practical use they'd change them. Which is why they they adjusted Bofur's look and shortened Thorin's beard, etc..
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Anubis
Rivendell
Feb 2 2015, 7:41pm
Post #61 of 63
(378 views)
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I was merely stating my opinion...
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Iīm not trying to talk you into anything...
a) Iīm sorry, I didnīt express correctly. I meant to say that a movie should Help you believe in the things it depicts. Of course, your willingness plays the main part.
b) Maybe one dwarf had a short red beard, and another one a long, black one, I donīt no...My point is, it strucks me as unbelievable that 99 percent of the dwarves have similar beards, while coincidentally, Thorinīs company dwarves are as different to each other as night and day. And, let me say, their beards are not different only because they have different colors, they each have a distinct shape. They look too unique in comparison to the other dwarves . At least that is how I feel.
c) There is no need for you to measure anything, as most of the scenes feature a CGI army, which is why the beards are, probably, the same in length.
d) It never crossed my mind, too. Glad that we agree on something.:)
PS: As for Thror, Thrain, Dain...Well, they donīt appear to have such peculiar beards as, say, Dori. However, they do have unique ones. Good job there, in my opinion.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Feb 3 2015, 10:55am
Post #62 of 63
(357 views)
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LOL!!! Excellent. And yes, so true...!//
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Feb 3 2015, 11:11am
Post #63 of 63
(358 views)
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I was stunned, and in a good way, to see how creatively they had 're-invented' the Dwarves, as compared to how totally uninteresting the Dwarves in the book were. To have made some of them altogether attractive wasto my eyes a bold trait of genius.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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