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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
DOS: Was Thranduil Referencing Morgoth?

KingTurgon
Rohan


Jan 30 2015, 6:06pm

Post #1 of 5 (1022 views)
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DOS: Was Thranduil Referencing Morgoth? Can't Post

I've been thinking about Thranduil's little monologue, and I feel like he is telling more than what we think he is. Does anyone else think he was referencing not Sauron, but Morgoth, since Thranduil presumably was alive in the First Age, and undoubtedly he had family that was affected by the wars with the rogue Vala?

"Such is the nature of evil." - Pretty straightforward, he's just starting his talk.
"Out there in the vast ignorance of the world it festers and spreads" - A reference to Manwe's pardon of Morgoth and his subsequent corrupting of Feanor?
"A shadow that grows in the dark" - A reference to Morgoth's ancient strongholds of Angband and Utumno was where he languished, multiple times, for many years as he grew his forces?
"A sleepless malice..." - Even though Morgoth was cast in the Void, parts of his essence still lingers in Middle-earth
"...as black as the oncoming wall of night." - Morgoth it is said will escape the Void some day. Was Thranduil referencing this prophecy of Mandos?
"So it ever was..." - Morgoth in the First Age
"...so shall it always be." - Sauron following in his footsteps
"In time, all foul things come forth." All foul things will come forth eventually for the Dagor Dagorath if the prophecy was going to be true.

Complete conjecture on my part and probably not intended, but Thranduil's vast and complicated history, as well as his brilliant portrayal by Lee Pace, gave me the notion that he is referencing an evil much worse than the evil of Sauron in this scene.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Jan 30 2015, 10:08pm

Post #2 of 5 (562 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

...you are overanalyzing things.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Jan 31 2015, 9:12am

Post #3 of 5 (462 views)
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i think he was referencing sauron as this was the link the film makers were making, but......... [In reply to] Can't Post

the speech in general represents the long fight against evil which of course has it's subcreative source in Melkor/Morgoth, and is of course described by Elrond during the Council of Elrond as "many defeats and many pointless (iirc) victories". The speech recognises the eternal presence of evil in the world which is in fact Arda Marred with Melkor's essence dispersed into it, so i agree with your assesment in that respect, even if that was not the context the film makers were meaning to express, which they may well have been, especially if they did any backround reading such as HOME or even had an understanding of the Silmarillion.


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 31 2015, 3:51pm

Post #4 of 5 (398 views)
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well said [In reply to] Can't Post

and Thranduil would have known some of this history, even if the woodelves were less knowledgeable.

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...





chauvelin2000
Bree

Feb 2 2015, 9:03am

Post #5 of 5 (313 views)
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Very cool insights and thoughtful use of Tolkien's 'applicability' ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I think the screen-writers 'painted' their words in very broad strokes — much like Tolkien did with all of his major themes throughout The Silmarillion and in his later Middle-earth saga.

In the spirit of Tolkien's literary philosophy of 'applicability' ... I think you did what the screen-writers were hoping: drawing your own conclusions — à la Tolkien — about the dark, foreboding, deeply profound words Thranduil spoke in the presence of the forces of Darkness and Light: a worldy-wise wisdom gained from literally Ages of experience in Arda.

These are very cool insights and their connections had never crossed my mind before when thinking about this scene.

Like others, I'd been 'keyed' into a more intuitive interpretation — a more simplistically derived filmic meaning that seemed naturally to give the focus to Sauron, who had the sites of his 'Great Eye' looking north to Erebor — conspiring in an unholy alliance of devil and drake. The two Beastly forces were poised to break forth in devilry to ravage Rhovanion, Eriador, and beyond ...

The idea of an even darker 'Lord', Melkor-Morgoth, whispering from the Void, hadn't even occurred to me — until now. In many ways, it has a deeper, more powerful significance.

Thank you ... nice contribution! Smile

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