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BlackFox
Half-elven
Jan 30 2015, 10:34am
Post #1 of 9
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Chapter of the Week: The Enemy Revealed
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Hello, everybody! That's right -- CHOW is back! We resume with DOS Chapter 29: The Enemy Revealed, in which the true identity of the Necromancer is finally exposed.
Here are some questions for you to consider -- feel free to answer as many or as few (if any) as you like.
1. Before Gandalf is set face to face with Sauron himself, he's pitted against one of his servants, Azog. What purpose does it serve? What are the similarities and the differences of the two encounters?
2. Gandalf's fears prove justified -- it turns out that the Enemy is, indeed, preparing for war. "Azog the Defiler is no ordinary hunter. He is a commander, a commander of legions," Gandalf tells Ragadast earlier during their investigations in Rhudaur. "We are legion!" Azog now boosts. How big of a surprise is this for Gandalf?
3. What do you think of the confrontation between Gandalf and the Necromancer, both the concept (light vs. darkness) and the execution?
4. Some have argued that this scene goes against what Tolkien wrote about the wizards, namely that they were "forbidden to match [Sauron's] power with power" ("The Istari", UT). What is your opinion on this?
5. How does Gandalf vs. the Necromancer compare to (a) Gandalf vs. Durin's Bane in FOTR, (b) Galadriel vs. Sauron in BOFA, (c) ... ?
6. Is Sauron's transformation triggered by the duel or a controlled, planned move of his? How does it fit in with what we've seen of Sauron in the previous films?
AUJ:
FOTR:
ROTK:
7. How much does Thráin's presence change this set of scenes in the EE? Is the change for better or for worse?
8. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?
9. Is there anything else you'd like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?
I look forward to hearing your thoughts. 
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jan 31 2015, 1:40am
Post #2 of 9
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1. Before Gandalf is set face to face with Sauron himself, he's pitted against one of his servants, Azog. What purpose does it serve? What are the similarities and the differences of the two encounters?
Well, we get to hear Azog call Gandalf “Sharku,” which gives me geeky shivers. I guess the encounter in which Gandalf defeats Azog without excessive effort serves as a contrast for the encounter with Sauron.
2. Gandalf's fears prove justified -- it turns out that the Enemy is, indeed, preparing for war. "Azog the Defiler is no ordinary hunter. He is a commander, a commander of legions," Gandalf tells Ragadast earlier during their investigations in Rhudaur. "We are legion!" Azog now boosts. How big of a surprise is this for Gandalf?
Gandalf seems to have guessed before this encounter from his words to Radagast. I can’t figure out how he suddenly came by this knowledge, but he is a Wizard, after all, and we mustn’t meddle in their affairs. 
3. What do you think of the confrontation between Gandalf and the Necromancer, both the concept (light vs. darkness) and the execution?
4. Some have argued that this scene goes against what Tolkien wrote about the wizards, namely that they were "forbidden to match [Sauron's] power with power" ("The Istari", UT). What is your opinion on this?
I like the creepy inky darkness of Sauron. But I’m not crazy about the way this scene is set up. Gandalf goes in to force an encounter he’s not supposed to enter into (though it would probably be only in self-defense), knowing full well the Necromancer is the Enemy with a capital E, so that the White Council must act. Does the end justify the means?
I will confess I’m very grateful for the moment when Gandalf gets pinned to one of the walls of Dol Guldur—I got another geeky thrill because it reminded me of Maedhros (I can never spell that without looking it up  ) getting chained to the cliff by Morgoth.
5. How does Gandalf vs. the Necromancer compare to (a) Gandalf vs. Durin's Bane in FOTR, (b) Galadriel vs. Sauron in BOFA, (c) ... ?
Maybe it was just that he knew his foe was more “equal” to his powers, but Gandalf seemed a lot more authoritative with the Balrog, I thought.
6. Is Sauron's transformation triggered by the duel or a controlled, planned move of his? How does it fit in with what we've seen of Sauron in the previous films?
That is a most excellent question, BF. I don’t know. I’m still kind of fuzzy on how he “regains power” after having been “deshaped” so long ago.
7. How much does Thráin's presence change this set of scenes in the EE? Is the change for better or for worse?
It changes Gandalf’s function a bit, regarding #3-4. If Gandalf is confronting Sauron in an effort to defend Thrain or allow him to escape—well, I think that gives him a valid exemption from the rule, as well as making him seem even more like a Good Guy.  Unfortunately it doesn’t work out too well. (And what’s with all this kids suddenly being told their parents love them, anyway?  )
9. Other comments
Well, I hated that shot where Gandalf is holding off Azog and edges over to look over the ledge. I was pretty sure someone was going to give him a shove. Also, I have a Gandalf’s hat theory. It is, in fact, self-aware and scurried off and hid until one of the Rhosgobel Rabbits later slipped it onto the bunny sled. There really is no other explanation.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 31 2015, 3:45pm
Post #4 of 9
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1. Before Gandalf is set face to face with Sauron himself, he's pitted against one of his servants, Azog. What purpose does it serve? What are the similarities and the differences of the two encounters?
We're about to see Gandalf defeated and rendered powerless to escape from an iron cage. I think it helps to remind us that this was not achievable through any mundane means, even a cunning and powerful Orc and his soldiers.
Like Riven Delve, I was also excited to recognize the word "sharku" in the dialogue of this moment, the first time I saw the film.
2. How big of a surprise is this for Gandalf?
He has as you say considered this likely and has spoken of the possibility. But I do think he was still surprised. I think he may have been hoping he was ahead of the game.
3. What do you think of the confrontation between Gandalf and the Necromancer, both the concept (light vs. darkness) and the execution?
This was my favorite moment of all the Dol Guldur scenes. I thought both the idea of light vs. darkness, and the execution, were brilliant.
4. Some have argued that this scene goes against what Tolkien wrote about the wizards, namely that they were "forbidden to match [Sauron's] power with power" ("The Istari", UT). What is your opinion on this?
I have not read UT. To me the quote provided does not have sufficient context for an understanding of what it means. Was this prohibition because the Istari were only to lead and advise the Free Peoples, who must gain the victory themselves? Was it to prevent a cataclysmic struggle that might destroy Sauron at the cost of destroying much that is good, innocent, and beautiful in Middle Earth? In either of my two above guesses, I don't see how this moment shows Gandalf exceeding his authority. Sauron was indeed not defeated until Frodo reached Mount Doom, and the struggle as shown only did local damage to various structures of Dol Guldur.
The filmmakers, of course, have no right to use UT, and so have never really explained what the Istari are. They are wizards, a word familiar enough to audiences to require no further explanation, and it is not problematic for a Good Wizard to fight the enemy (especially when he loses, as otherwise it can be boring- the other side has magic too, after all! )
5. How does Gandalf vs. the Necromancer compare to (a) Gandalf vs. Durin's Bane in FOTR, (b) Galadriel vs. Sauron in BOFA, (c) ... ? I think I prefer Gandalf vs. Balrog. It caps the amazing Moria sequence, and the presence of the Fellowship adds to the scene. Though, I must say I did like this glimpse of Gandalf operating solo - not just this scene, but also the one of him striding across the bridge, earlier, have a nice, almost "Western" style feel to them of the Hero striding in to town.
6. Is Sauron's transformation triggered by the duel or a controlled, planned move of his? How does it fit in with what we've seen of Sauron in the previous films?
I would say neither. I think he gains confidence in the duel, and is almost taunting his defeated enemy with this display. I thought the idea of the black Dark Lord Sauron figure surrounded by flames mimicking the Eye was a striking one.
7. How much does Thráin's presence change this set of scenes in the EE? Is the change for better or for worse?
I liked both sets of scenes. I am withholding judgment on Thrain, as I suspect he will be used in the EE of Bo5A in some way and I want to see how that works out. But I liked the actors and their performances, at any rate.
Thanks for your interesting questions and summary!
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Kim
Valinor
Jan 31 2015, 8:31pm
Post #6 of 9
(993 views)
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1. Before Gandalf is set face to face with Sauron himself, he's pitted against one of his servants, Azog. What purpose does it serve? What are the similarities and the differences of the two encounters?
Well, it could be that Sauron doesn’t think he’s regained enough strength to fight an Istari, and sends Azog out to wear Gandalf down. Or perhaps he wants to see how Gandalf will respond to being attacked and gage his power.
2. Gandalf's fears prove justified -- it turns out that the Enemy is, indeed, preparing for war. "Azog the Defiler is no ordinary hunter. He is a commander, a commander of legions," Gandalf tells Ragadast earlier during their investigations in Rhudaur. "We are legion!" Azog now boosts. How big of a surprise is this for Gandalf?
I think it may have been a surprise to find Azog at DG since he had been pursuing the Company, and for all he knew, still was. I suppose Gandalf approached it expecting to find some sort of opposing force, so he approached with relative caution while at the same time trying to get the evil to reveal itself.
3. What do you think of the confrontation between Gandalf and the Necromancer, both the concept (light vs. darkness) and the execution?
I thought this was one of the most striking scenes of the movie the first time I saw it. The concept and execution of the light vs. darkness was really well done. When I first read the subtitles “there is no light, Wizard, that can defeat the darkness” my first thought was “any light defeats darkness!” even if it is only temporary.
4. Some have argued that this scene goes against what Tolkien wrote about the wizards, namely that they were "forbidden to match [Sauron's] power with power" ("The Istari", UT). What is your opinion on this?
Well, for this scene, I’d say it’s a matter of self-defense. He didn’t actually know it was Sauron until he was already at Sauron’s mercy.
5. How does Gandalf vs. the Necromancer compare to (a) Gandalf vs. Durin's Bane in FOTR, (b) Galadriel vs. Sauron in BOFA, (c) ... ?
Hmmm. Gandalf vs. the Balrog felt a little different since the Balrog felt like more of a physical presence and Gandalf initially fought it with his sword, and it ended up being more of a brawl. And Galadriel’s encounter was the opposite, all magical force, so more like this one. And when you compare it to the encounter in Goblintown, that one started as magical with that blast of light, but then quickly become a physical fight with the goblins. He’s versatile, that wizard!
6. Is Sauron's transformation triggered by the duel or a controlled, planned move of his? How does it fit in with what we've seen of Sauron in the previous films?
This is interesting to ponder, I wonder if he was able to pull strength from Gandalf to enable him to take a more physical form. I don’t think it was a controlled, planned move since he was (mostly) taken by surprise when Gandalf appeared to force his hand. He mustered what physical form he could to fight Gandalf. The form we saw in AUJ felt unfinished, whereas this one looked more like the version we saw at the beginning of FOTR, so he was able to muster the strength to at least appear like his previous form.
7. How much does Thráin's presence change this set of scenes in the EE? Is the change for better or for worse?
This definitely changed the tone of this scene, but I haven’t quite decided if it’s for the better or worse. I kind of like the more straightforward original scene, but that might be partially because I’ve seen it so many times and am used to it. It was pretty sad to see Thráin's fate and his absolute terror as he knew it was coming.
8. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?
Once again, this place is creepy! They did a really good job of making it scary will all the sharp rusted metal on stone. I liked how Gandalf was able to hold Azog at bay with the power of his staff. And I really liked the contrast of Gandalf’s light vs. the necromancer’s darkness, and the sudden reveal of the fiery form. I thought that was a cool meld of a physical form and the Eye. The sound effects of the fight were pretty cool too, kind of phasing in and out as the dark encountered Gandalf’s light.
9. Is there anything else you'd like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?
Thorin’s hair: still flowing gently in the breeze while waiting outside the hidden door, the moonlight glancing off the few silver strands woven amidst the darker chocolate strands of silk.
Thanks BlackFox, glad we’re back!
#OneLastTime
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Jan 31 2015, 9:01pm
Post #7 of 9
(987 views)
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It's always a pleasure having you around.
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Noria
Gondor
Feb 1 2015, 2:17pm
Post #8 of 9
(968 views)
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1. Before Gandalf is set face to face with Sauron himself, he's pitted against one of his servants, Azog. What purpose does it serve? What are the similarities and the differences of the two encounters?
-I think his contest with Azog reminds us of Gandalf’s power. Though Azog is just an Orc he is formidable but one on one he is no match for Gandalf. If there were just Orcs to face, Gandalf would have had no real problem escaping from Dol Guldur. But when Sauron appears, we see how powerful the Necromancer truly is and that Gandalf is no match for him.
2. Gandalf's fears prove justified -- it turns out that the Enemy is, indeed, preparing for war. "Azog the Defiler is no ordinary hunter. He is a commander, a commander of legions," Gandalf tells Ragadast earlier during their investigations in Rhudaur. "We are legion!" Azog now boosts. How big of a surprise is this for Gandalf?
-I suppose that Gandalf had strong suspicions that the Necromancer was Sauron and that he was gathering his strength at Dol Guldur . Presumably the wizard went there to have those suspicions confirmed so was not too surprised. Perhaps he was hoping to find evidence for the White Council, and thought that he could get in and out. Or was he was deliberately sacrificing himself to draw the White Council in? Frankly, I have trouble making sense of the Dol Guldur plotline in DOS and BOTFA and it’s one of my least favourite parts of both movies.
3. What do you think of the confrontation between Gandalf and the Necromancer, both the concept (light vs. darkness) and the execution?
-This is the light versus darkness thing made real. I liked Gandalf’s clear sphere of light and the Necromancers’s more nebulous and ever shifting cloud of darkness. I usually don’t care for the direct tie-ins to the LotR movies in the Hobbit films but I did like that Gandalf’s bubble of light defense is the same one he uses more successfully against the Balrog.
4. Some have argued that this scene goes against what Tolkien wrote about the wizards, namely that they were "forbidden to match [Sauron's] power with power" ("The Istari", UT). What is your opinion on this?
-In the movie-verse there is no such restriction that I can remember. Anyway, I don’t know if Gandalf intended to confront Sauron but when he was trapped, he resisted. It was passive defense rather than offense. I am fine with it. Gandalf would have looked like a dork otherwise.
5. How does Gandalf vs. the Necromancer compare to (a) Gandalf vs. Durin's Bane in FOTR, (b) Galadriel vs. Sauron in BOFA, (c) ... ?
-In FotR it’s superficially much the same setup as in DOS: Gandalf versus a creature of evil but in that case they are more nearly matched. The Balrog is more of a corporeal creature and Gandalf is not only able to withstand its power but defeat it. It is a physical battle as well as a magical one. In the battle with Sauron Gandalf's foe is much more nebulous; it is more a force than an entity and it is stronger. The battle is one of wills and mystical forces. Gandalf is very much overmatched and relatively easily defeated.
6. Is Sauron's transformation triggered by the duel or a controlled, planned move of his? How does it fit in with what we've seen of Sauron in the previous films?
-Interesting question. Perhaps Sauron could not help but manifest more clearly in the battle with Gandalf or perhaps he was just ready to reveal himself, especially when he would be pretty sure that Gandalf wasn’t going anywhere.
-AUJ: In DOS we see a more powerful and visible image of Sauron than appeared in AUJ, as if he is gaining power and able to manifest himself more strongly.
-FOTR and ROTK: What Frodo sees while wearing the Ring might be different from what the Wise see in Dol Guldur so it’s hard to say.
7. How much does Thráin's presence change this set of scenes in the EE? Is the change for better or for worse?
-Well I like both versions and enjoyed seeing Thrain and hearing his story. Gandalf’s mission becomes an attempted rescue, an interesting twist that changes the feel of the scene and makes it more tragic. This part of the EE story will presumable be referenced in the BOTFA EE. Thrain’s death seemed a little silly, not the fact that he dies but the manner of it.
8. Any thoughts on (a) the performances of the actors, (b) costumes and/or scenery, (c) score, (d) cinematography, editing, lighting, visual effects etc.?
-IMO the art design here is impressive and I very much like the Dol Goldur set with its sharp stones, rusty and spiky sharp metal, skulls and bones, gibbets etc. It really evokes a place of evil, pain and death.
-I liked the overhead shots of Gandalf at the beginning of this scene, which for me added to the uncertainty and aura of evil.
-All the acting was excellent, as usual.
9. Is there anything else you'd like to say about this chapter? Any additional comments or observations?
-I thought Azog’s entrance was great: in the earlier scene in which Gandalf invokes his reveal spell nothing happens and I suppose I expected the same in this scene. But this time Azog literally appears out of nowhere to knock Gandalf down.
-I really liked the manifestation of Sauron as the eye transforming into one fiery armoured figure after another and much prefer it to the eyeball of RotK.
Thanks BlackFox
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Feb 1 2015, 3:03pm
Post #9 of 9
(964 views)
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Noria! //
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