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Questions about The Silmarillion

lionoferebor
Rohan

Jan 29 2015, 7:48pm

Post #1 of 13 (1529 views)
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Questions about The Silmarillion Can't Post

I started reading The Silmarillion last night. I read the Aiunlindalë and Valaquenta. I think I have a grasp on it so far, but I have a couple of questions.

(1) Melkor - I understand he was a fallen Ainu, but was he ever a Valar or meant to be a Valar? Also, the Valaquenta says there were nine Aratar but only eight remain. Was Melkor the ninth Aratar?

(2) The Flame Imperishable - I'm not going to lie, this has me quite confused. Would someone please explain want this is.

Last - this is more of an observation - when considering the animosity between the Elves and Dwarves, I find it interesting that Aulë and Yavanna are wed.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 29 2015, 9:40pm

Post #2 of 13 (1298 views)
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Melkor = Morgoth [In reply to] Can't Post

Melkor is Morgoth and was the greatest of the Valar before his fall.

The Flame Imperishable was the creating spirit of Iluvatar, possessed by Him alone.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 29 2015, 10:16pm

Post #3 of 13 (1307 views)
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Attempts to answer! [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, welcome to the Reading Room, lionoferebor! From your SN I take it you are a fan of the films? In any case, I'm glad you've decided to take the plunge into the Silmarillion. Not many do, and most of them quit soon after. I do hope that you will stick with it, and feel free to ask any questions you have, here! Let's get started!

1. Who was Melkor? Was he meant to be a Vala?

I'd say, 'yes', but it all depends on what you mean by 'Vala'.

If you mean, powerful and in the class above Maiar {Lesser spirits who served under greater Valar/Ainu}, definitely so!

If you mean, one of the 'Guardians of Middle-Earth' {Amidst Varda, Yavanna, Tulkas, and that lot}, it gets more tricky. He was still, technically, considered a 'Vala' by many until his outright turn to Evil. I won't spoil you on the details. He even used his position as a 'Vala' to persuade others to follow him.

So, I'd say he was always in a power bracket above most, and, for a while, he was considered part of the 'Guardian of Arda Club', but his turn to Evil lost him that position and he became... well, I'll let you discover what he became...

His position in the Middle-Earth Mythology is similar to Lucifer in the Christian Tradition, so I usually compare the two. Is Lucifer still considered to be an 'angel', or has it changed now he is a 'devil'? I think that answers are the same.

2. What is The Flame Imperishable?

Well, this is a bit more tricky. If you want to know what it is made of, well...you'd have to ask Eru. If you want to know what it does, that is a little easier.

The Flame Imperishable is said to reside within Eru. It is also said to be able to, 'give life' to thoughts and creations. It is said to burn at the centre of Arda. Melkor coveted it and sought for it in the Void. Finally, Eru sent part of it into the Void to give life to the vision of Music the Ainur had sang.

So, this is most of what we know about the Flame, and it doesn't really seem to do much outside of the Valaquenta.

If I had to say what it was, I'd say it is a highly mythical object, meant to represent the 'Divine Spark' needed for the creation of Arda and living, conscious beings. It serves the function of many other elements present in creation stories, but ultimately, I think we are to infer that without it, there would be no Arda, so thus, Eru is solely able to create life and matter.

3. An observation

Yes, that last bit is a little ironic. Have you read the story Of Aulë and Yavanna? It gives a bit more insight into their plausible relations in years to come.

I think the whole idea there is that craftsmanship and a love of nature are not mutually exclusive, but that we should be respectful of nature in our crafting, and nature should not be a tyrant in its own domain, choking out all else in its spread.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jan 29 2015, 10:16pm

Post #4 of 13 (1284 views)
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So...Melkor (Morgoth) is not an Ainu? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you explain the difference between the Ainur and the Valar. I thought the Valar were Ainur who went to prepare Arda for the Children of Ilúvatar and later dwelt there in Valinor, but now I'm not so sure. Thank you.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 29 2015, 10:32pm

Post #5 of 13 (1272 views)
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All Valar are Ainur [In reply to] Can't Post

The Valar are the mightiest of the Ainur. Below them are the Maiar and the Ainur who remained to dwell with Iluvatar. Melkor/Morgoth was a Vala and fills the same role in Tolkien's legendarium as Lucifer in Christian theology. Sauron, Gandalf and the other Istari, Melian and the Balrogs were all Maiar. I'm pretty sure that Ungoliant was also a Maia.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 29 2015, 10:36pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 30 2015, 1:25am

Post #6 of 13 (1260 views)
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Sets and subsets [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing that will help you understand The Silmarillion is that Tolkien deals a lot in sets and subsets. So the Ainur are ALL heavenly beings created by Eru/Iluvatar. The Valar are a subset of the Ainur, being the greatest of those that watch over Arda. The Maiar are another subset. The corrupted beings that serve Melkor (balrogs) are another subset of Ainur.

It comes up again with the Elves. They start as one group, then splinter into others. The back of the book should have a chart showing all the subsets of Elves to keep them straight (and don't be overwhelmed; not all the groupings matter or come up that often).

I'm not certain about labeling Melkor as a Vala after his descent into evil because Tolkien usually says that it's the Valar vs. Melkor, implying he's not part of the group, but there's a terrific moment much later in the book where it is said of Melkor in a certain situation, "Alone of the Valar he knew fear." So Tolkien was still labeling him one long after his split from the rest of them, maybe because he wasn't sure what else to call him.


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jan 30 2015, 2:43am

Post #7 of 13 (1242 views)
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The Aratar [In reply to] Can't Post

Melkor was indeed the most powerful of all the Ainu. He was given a bit of all of their virtues. Manwe, his "spiritual" brother, was the only one close to him. Once he rebelled, he was expelled from the Aratar. All Aratar were Valar, but not all Valar were Aratar.

So you have the Aratar, who are the creme de la creme of the; Melkor could be considered chief among chiefs as the Chief Justice is in the U.S. Supreme Court. All of the Valar were more powerful than the Maiar, and all the Maiar (generally) more powerful than the Children of Eru.

After the First Age, it is odd that the Maiar have the most powerful impact on Middle Earth among the "holy ones." Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, the remaining Balrog. Anyway, that is off topic.

Melkor was an Aratar and member of the Valar until he rebelled and was thus expelled from the order.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 30 2015, 3:24am

Post #8 of 13 (1249 views)
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The things in the back of the book are critical. [In reply to] Can't Post

When I first read the Sil, a nice person in the Reading Room advised me to make copies (enlarged if necessary) of the maps and genealogy and other tables, put them in plastic sheet protectors, and keep them handy as you read. I have been forever grateful for this, and pass it along whenever it seems appropriate!

As you get a little farther, you'll find way more Elves whose names begin with F than you can possibly keep track of without a chart!








Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 30 2015, 3:33am

Post #9 of 13 (1237 views)
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He did trade on his status later... [In reply to] Can't Post

When speaking to Feanor he said:

It is told that for a time Melkor was not seen again in Valinor, not was any rumour heard of him, until suddenly he came to Formenos, and spoke with Fëanor before his doors. Friendship he feigned with cunning argument, urging him to his former thought of flight from the trammels of the Valar; and he said: 'Behold the truth of all that I have spoken, and how thou art banished unjustly. But if the heart of Fëanor is yet free and bold as were his words in Tirion, then I will aid him, and bring him far from this narrow land. For am I not Vala also? yea, and more than those who sit in pride in Valimar; and I have ever been a friend to the Noldor, most skilled and most valiant of the people of Arda.--Chapter 7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Also, Eonwe, herald of Manwe, when speaking to Feanor's host at their departure, he answered Feanor's charge:

It seemed to him that he was beset in a ring of enemies, and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the Silmarils were not safe, if the Valar would possess them. 'And is he not Vala as are they,' said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts?' Yea, a thief shall reveal thieves!' Then he cried aloud: 'This thing I will not do of free will. But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.' -- The Flight of the Noldor

With the words:

"Vala he is, thou saist"

However, it can be argued that Melkor is lying, Feanor's argument is based on Melkor's own words and claims. Eonwe might just be using Feanor's own words to answer him.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jan 30 2015, 7:23pm

Post #10 of 13 (1187 views)
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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much for the warm welcome! I am a fan of the films and the books as well. Though it's been since I was in college that I read LOTR and that was back when FOTR was in theaters, so my recollection of the written story is a bit hazy these days. Though I have read quite a bit of the appendices in recent weeks. The Hobbit is a bit more clear since I read it for the second time right before I saw DOS in 2013.

This is my third or fourth attempt to read the The Silmarillion. I've read bits and pieces of it, - such as the tale of Lúthien and Beren and the story of the Nauglamir - but I've never read it cover-to-cover. I've always heard it's a great book and I know - in most cases - that each of Tolkien's narratives is somehow interwoven with the others. So, I'm interested to see how The Silmarillion fits into the story of Middle-earth.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jan 30 2015, 7:25pm

Post #11 of 13 (1198 views)
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What a clever idea. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, I'll have to do that.


Gwytha
Rohan


Jan 31 2015, 4:25am

Post #12 of 13 (1197 views)
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I had a copy of the Silmarillion for years [In reply to] Can't Post

but I could never get very far in it. then someone on this site recommended I listen to it on Books on tap[e, which I did and quickly became completely absorbed in it. I've listened to it through twice. It really does enhance the whole experience of reading LOTR and TH. I hope to sit down and read the actual text someday, but I'm so busy these days its hard to find the time to actually sit down and read a novel.

Growth after all is not so much a matter of change as of ripening, and what alters most is the degree of clarity with which we see one another. -Edith Pargeter


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 4:54am

Post #13 of 13 (1218 views)
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then another recommendation for you.. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
then another recommendation for you...

the unabridged audio recording of lotr, as read by robert inglis. wholly phenomenal. one forgets that this is one person, giving life to all these characters. his gollum is completely captivating.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

 
 

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