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News from Bree
spymaster@theonering.net
Jan 28 2015, 4:05pm
Post #1 of 18
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Did we glimpse baby Samwise?
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[caption id="attachment_96715" align="alignnone" width="300"] Could these be Gamgees?[/caption]
The first time I watched The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Extended Edition, I mistook a hobbit in the marketplace scene for Sean Astin. Upon pausing the film, however, I realized it wasn't Sean at all but rather an actor who strongly resembled him... holding a baby. I'm certain the filmmakers also noticed this resemblance, which begs the question: is this Gaffer Gamgee and Samwise?!
Remember, Hobbits are a longer-lived race than Men. They come of age at 30, after all. In The Fellowship of the Ring (book), Frodo celebrates his 50th birthday shortly before embarking on the Quest to destroy the One Ring. The events of The Hobbit are said to take place roughly 60 years before Frodo steps out his front door on that fateful day. Sam is stated to be younger than Frodo in the books, but given the altered timeline of the films, Samwise (who looks older than Frodo in FOTR) could be around 60 years old when he joins his friend on the adventure, which could justify this (possible) baby cameo.
[caption id="attachment_96722" align="alignnone" width="245"] Samwise is ready for an adventure![/caption]
After all, Jackson's Middle-earth films are a magical place in more ways than one: that stumbling man in Bree is still eating a carrot 60 years later, unchanged by time!
What do you think? Is this baby Sam Gamgee? Or perhaps baby Hamfast (Gaffer) and his father? At the very least, they must be some Gamgee relation!
[caption id="attachment_96724" align="alignnone" width="300"] Sam and his daughter Eleanor at the end of ROTK[/caption]
One thing is clear: baby hobbits are adorable.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 28 2015, 9:59pm
Post #3 of 18
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Samwise was 38 years old when he accompanied Frodo out of the Shire in Tolkien's canon. Even if we make him 38 at the time of Bilbo's farewell party in TH:AUJ, that only pushes his birth back to TA 2962. Maybe the baby is an older cousin. If you want to make Sam over 60 years old in the LotR movies then you better find him a Lesser Ring of Power.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jan 28 2015, 10:24pm
Post #4 of 18
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That the movie time-lines are a bit shorter than the books it is possible that say a 40 year old Samwise was in the movie.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jan 28 2015, 10:43pm
Post #5 of 18
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Sam did look older than Frodo in the movie, but not twice his age. And Frodo was just turned 33 in the movie.
"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Jan 28 2015, 11:10pm
Post #6 of 18
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Well,I am sure they are Gamgees of some variety...
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... the family resemblance is remarkable.
While we're on the subject - I keep being surprised by "family resemblances" which in theory shouldn't be there because the actors aren't related, but are quite striking - and aren't entirely just a matter of make-up. Martin's Bilbo and Pippin, for instance - and sometimes he has a look of Merry; Gloin, Dwalin and Balin in certain shots; some expressions and attitudes of Fili and Thorin, and so on. Very odd! But I suspect real family resemblances are not solely about physical features either, but in part more fluid, and a result of being around the same people for a lot of the time and catching their ways of looking and doing. But that doesn't explain Martin/Pippin, does it? Interesting.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 28 2015, 11:16pm
Post #7 of 18
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... the family resemblance is remarkable.
While we're on the subject - I keep being surprised by "family resemblances" which in theory shouldn't be there because the actors aren't related, but are quite striking - and aren't entirely just a matter of make-up. Martin's Bilbo and Pippin, for instance - and sometimes he has a look of Merry; Gloin, Dwalin and Balin in certain shots; some expressions and attitudes of Fili and Thorin, and so on. Very odd! But I suspect real family resemblances are not solely about physical features either, but in part more fluid, and a result of being around the same people for a lot of the time and catching their ways of looking and doing. But that doesn't explain Martin/Pippin, does it? Interesting.
All the ones you mention - plus I find the profiles of Elijah and Sir Ian Holm *amazingly* similar in the FOTR scene, where they are in the tent hiding from the Sackville-Bagginses. You see it when they turn towards each other. Really striking. That's genes and good casting maybe...the rest has to be either acting (if its purposeful, not just subconscious) or fully subliminal I suppose. Maybe from watching rushes and footage, mannerisms get absorbed in a particular theatrical environment?
Martin's Bilbo reminded me quite a lot of Billy's Pippin at times as well. Especially the shot in the trees in AUJ, where Martin climbs into the tree and then looks down.
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ecthelionsbeard
Lorien
Jan 28 2015, 11:33pm
Post #8 of 18
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Someone finally made this a thread  I noticed the same thing the very first time I saw this scene in the extended cut. I'd love to know if someone can gather the name of this actor. He does bare a strong resemblance to Sean Asten.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 29 2015, 12:08am
Post #9 of 18
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That the movie time-lines are a bit shorter than the books it is possible that say a 40 year old Samwise was in the movie.
It is still 60 years between the Quest of Erebor (TA 2940 in the films) and Bilbo's party (TA 3000 as per FotR-EE). Even according to Tolkien, Sam was only 21 years old (born in 2980) on Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday, hardly more than a boy by Hobbit standards.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Farficom
Rivendell
Jan 29 2015, 12:22am
Post #11 of 18
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I don't know if it would, or could be him... but the idea of them being related in some way wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.
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cats16
Half-elven
Jan 29 2015, 12:42am
Post #12 of 18
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Agreed on the resemblance. I think it's that general Tookish-ness, as least for me.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 29 2015, 12:58am
Post #13 of 18
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I see what you mean - this is the one I had in mind
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though its a tad blurry:
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cats16
Half-elven
Jan 29 2015, 1:00am
Post #14 of 18
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I'm reminded of the shot of Pippin as he sees the horse about to squash him into jelly in TTT. Lighting and framing are similar, too (which helps).
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
(This post was edited by cats16 on Jan 29 2015, 1:00am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 1 2015, 1:00am
Post #15 of 18
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It is very similar.
There is also a shot right before Bilbo loses his waistcoat buttons where I jump and think 'Tookishness! He looks like Pip there!'
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AshNazg
Gondor
Feb 1 2015, 1:29pm
Post #16 of 18
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Someone might have mentioned, but isn't Gaffer mentioned in The Hobbit?
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At least, I think he's mentioned within The Hobbit timeline (in one of the books) at some point or his father is? I think possibly in FotR, when they're discussing "cracked" Bilbo Baggins Gaffer mentions either he or his father were present when Bilbo returned home?
My memory's fuzzy but there's something mentioned somewhere I know it.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Feb 1 2015, 1:38pm
Post #17 of 18
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Here's the quote from the book -
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The Fellowship of the Ring - A Long-Expected Party
Gaffer Gamgee
"...I saw Mr. Bilbo when he came back, a matter of sixty years ago, when I was a lad. I'd not long come prentice to old Holman (him being my dad's cousin), but he had me up at Bag End helping him to keep folks from trampling and trespassing all over the garden while the sale was on..."
We see him in FotR, he looks very old, probably more than sixty something. But the baby could well be Gaffer. I can't see why not. That would make the older hobbit Hobson "Roper" Gamgee (Hamfast "Gaffer" Gamgee's father).
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Feb 1 2015, 1:44pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 1 2015, 3:13pm
Post #18 of 18
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In book-canon, Hamfast (the Gaffer) Gamgee was born in TA 2926 and would have been in his sixteenth year when Bilbo came home from his adventure. But it is not hard to imagine that his year of birth could have been moved to be later (although, ironically, Sam's birthyear would have had to have been earlier in the film-canon).
Actually, come to think of it, if this baby was Samwise's father then Sam must have been sired well before Hamfast reached his age of majority. Scandalous! Maybe we should just go back to the theory that this is an uncle or cousin to Sam.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 1 2015, 3:26pm)
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Yes!
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