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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Do you think The Hobbit will gain more recognization as it grows older?
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Glorfindela
Valinor


Jan 29 2015, 2:11pm

Post #51 of 65 (1361 views)
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Thank you, Ilmatar [In reply to] Can't Post

I, too, like the company I am in!


In Reply To
Glorfindela, BlackFox, Riven Delve and dormouse - I'm in good company, so can't complain! Laugh
(I don't belog to any "official fandom" either.)



Elarie
Grey Havens

Jan 29 2015, 2:49pm

Post #52 of 65 (1354 views)
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And yet "Dawn" almost put me to sleep with boredom [In reply to] Can't Post

and I spent the last 45 minutes or so trying to see my watch in the dark and wondering when it would end.

But I watch the Hobbit movies over and over and always get swept away by the wonder and magic of Middle-earth and all the great characters.

Different tastes for different people.

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Arannir
Valinor


Jan 29 2015, 3:01pm

Post #53 of 65 (1351 views)
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Signed [In reply to] Can't Post


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Everyone remember this is just my opinion. I really hate being negative all the time but I completely agree with this post. The hobbit movies just don't have the same magic as LOTR. The biggest thing that stands out for me is when people call it a 6 film saga. To me, the hobbit looks and feels so different from LOTR that it doesn't seem like it's part of the same series. That's been a big issue for me since I saw the second trailer to AUJ. The methods that PJ used for these movies creates a very different visual for middle earth than what we had in LOTR. People can try to convince me all they want that it's a different time, Bilbo's memory, etc. but the fact remains the same that it just isn't the same middle earth.

I guess that's neither here nor there with regard to the main topic. I honestly think the majority of people out there will look at the hobbit trilogy the same way people look at the SW prequels. While the hobbit isn't nearly as bad as the SW prequels, there will still be a sense that this is an inferior trilogy that could have been much more.

Edit: I want to end on a more positive note since I feel like I don't do it enough on this board. In the end it doesn't really matter how these movies look in the future. All that matters is how each person individually receives the film. If you don't like the film, you don't like it. If you like it, then you like it. And nobody else's opinion is really going to change any of that, no matter how many years go by.



I absolutely agree and very well stated!



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jan 29 2015, 8:09pm

Post #54 of 65 (1319 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the longer they are around, the more people will see them for what the are-- well-intentioned mediocrities whose bright spots are eclipsed by seemingly endless cgi action for action's sake and narrative bloat.


glor
Rohan

Jan 29 2015, 8:47pm

Post #55 of 65 (1300 views)
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But that culture is based on a falsehood [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
My view is that the negative reaction to the Starwars Prequals has become almost a culture onto itself when it comes to both reviewers/commentators and the more general public


I agree but..

I have mentioned this before in other thread but, there is a very lazy discourse attached to the Star Wars prequels that has given birth to the myth that the only thing wrong with them was too much CGI. In fact, it wasn't the CGI but the terrible wooden acting and I mean really terrible, plus a script that seemed more interested in selling toys, than telling a story. I would add that the later point; selling toys, the notion of a prequel as nothing more than a cash grab in the case of the SW prequels has an element of truth but, considering the nature of the SW beast that critique could have been reduced to a niggle if the acting had been up to par.

This falsehood, that CGI equals bad, has resulted in a critical laziness, a culture that equates CGI and sequels/prequels as some cheap money machine with no artistic worth and misses the point completely, that is, it is actors on screen who convince, who pull us into other worlds and engage us with the emotion of a narrative, something that was sorely lacking in the SW prequels, films that were supposed to tell an emotional backstory of interpersonal relationships against a political background, in a galaxy far, far away.

With the Hobbit films, I have loved them but I am also disappointed not, as some our on these boards because they were not what I wanted them to be before I saw them but, for what I did see and realised what they could have been. If PJ had not been afraid of his own legacy and dispensed with his urge to constantly entertain ( read action sequences), he could have taken his extraordinary cast and delivered The Godfather 1 and 2 for the 21st century blockbuster generation, a fantasy tale with emotional weight and intrigue, with subtley and elegance drawn from his thespians.


No mascara can survive BOTFA

(This post was edited by glor on Jan 29 2015, 8:49pm)


burrahobbit
Rohan


Jan 29 2015, 9:32pm

Post #56 of 65 (1271 views)
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Nice post! // [In reply to] Can't Post



dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 29 2015, 11:31pm

Post #57 of 65 (1264 views)
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The funny thing is..... [In reply to] Can't Post

...in reading your post I find what, for me, is a perfect definition of what I think Peter Jackson has achieved with The Hobbit:


Quote

...a fantasy tale with emotional weight and intrigue, with subtley and elegance drawn from his thespians.


...that's exactly what I see on screen. It isn't the effects that make the film for me, though there are some amazing effects in the film. It isn't the action. It's the characters and the subtle interactions between them - the emotion they generate. They are the heart of the story. Coming to know them and care about them gives life and meaning to the rest. The films are driven by the characters, and by some superb acting, and that will never date.



Glorfindela
Valinor


Jan 30 2015, 12:14am

Post #58 of 65 (1242 views)
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Agreed, Dormouse [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially with regard to film 3, but also film 1.Smile


glor
Rohan

Jan 30 2015, 12:15am

Post #59 of 65 (1250 views)
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It is why they work for me too [In reply to] Can't Post

However, my disappointment is about what they could have been. How we could have had something extraordinary that was lauded beyond fandom and could have been as significant in terms of cinema as LOTR.

PJ could have made a masterpiece with what he had but instead he did IMHO, fall short. An example: Thorin's madness of the gold floor, it didn't need the psychedelic effects, a directorial decision usually associated with an inadequate performance by the actor. RAs performance certainly didn't need it to be punched home by some sfx. It could and should have been allowed to stand on it's own, and the audience been allowed to dwell upon it longer.

Perhaps the problem with The Hobbit is that the acting is so good, so compelling one feels as if the action scenes are an intrusion, the equivalent of putting a shoot out in the middle of Twelve Angry Men. Ok, not quite that jarring but I hope you get the comparison

No mascara can survive BOTFA

(This post was edited by glor on Jan 30 2015, 12:17am)


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jan 30 2015, 8:51am

Post #60 of 65 (1214 views)
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subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
An example: Thorin's madness of the gold floor, it didn't need the psychedelic effects, a directorial decision usually associated with an inadequate performance by the actor. RAs performance certainly didn't need it to be punched home by some sfx. It could and should have been allowed to stand on it's own, and the audience been allowed to dwell upon it longer.


I thought RA gave a wonderful performance, for the most part, in BOFA. He did a good job showing Thorin go mad. But some decisions by PJ kind of messed it up for me. Things like having Thorin state the exact same quotes as Smaug were actually a brilliant idea. But the way PJ directed it just left me thinking "why the heck is he making these statements so dramatic?" It was too "on the head." Yeah, we get it; he's saying the exact same thing that smaug said in a smaug-like voice.

IMO It would have been much more effective to just have RA state, "I would not part with a single coin," in a normal voice in non-slow motion (again really why did he have to do the slow mo for this scene?). And then you have the psychedelic gold floor scene with the main character realizing he's drowning in the one thing he really desires. It seemed a little too cliche to me. Again, just my opinion.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jan 30 2015, 9:10am

Post #61 of 65 (1204 views)
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SW prequels [In reply to] Can't Post

In regards to the whole SW prequels referencing among critics and fans, I don't think it comes down to complaining about any single thing such as the CGI. The whole "vibe" around the prequels is that you originally had a masterpiece trilogy followed by a set of movies in the same series that turned out to be such a disappointment that they don't come close to being as good as the originals. And this can be for various reasons such as the writing, acting, dialogue, and CGI. When people say that something (like the hobbit) is SW prequels all over again, they aren't necessarily saying it's all about CGI or whatever. They are simply saying that it's a disappointing followup to something that was a masterpiece. At least that's how I see it.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jan 30 2015, 9:18am

Post #62 of 65 (1197 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My view is that the negative reaction to the Starwars Prequals has become almost a culture onto itself when it comes to both reviewers/commentators and the more general public. There failings are of course worth of a good deal of criticism but I think disliking them has become a bit of a safe touchstone, something you could bring up without really making an interesting point or with the risk of being disagreed with.

I think it was pretty clear even before release that there was a strong desire for the Hobbit films to follow this path from a lot of people.

It will be interesting to see whether this opinion lasts, my guess is that it may well not simply because the attraction of it is that it be near universal. If you get a decent minority challenging it then lazy critical articles won't get as positive a response and people who don't like having there opinions questioned will look elsewhere.

Ignoring this aspect I don't think the films will ever be as well regarded as LOTR as there simply not as good but I do think that like LOTR there certainly rewatch friendly in the density of there character/plot/design as is the case with most of Jacksons work.


I think you are right in some aspects that critics were probably waiting to bash it, or wanting it to fail. Though, there's also a part of me that maybe thinks critics have just become used to being disappointed by sequels/prequels in general, especially ones made years afterwards. And maybe they were just expecting the same to happen with the hobbit. And now a lot of those critics (and myself included) feel as if the hobbit has lived up to the stigma of prequels and sequels to major blockbusters being bad.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


moreorless
Gondor

Jan 30 2015, 11:07am

Post #63 of 65 (1206 views)
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This not the only criticism the SW prequals get but I think the general idea is correct [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
My view is that the negative reaction to the Starwars Prequals has become almost a culture onto itself when it comes to both reviewers/commentators and the more general public


I agree but..

I have mentioned this before in other thread but, there is a very lazy discourse attached to the Star Wars prequels that has given birth to the myth that the only thing wrong with them was too much CGI. In fact, it wasn't the CGI but the terrible wooden acting and I mean really terrible, plus a script that seemed more interested in selling toys, than telling a story. I would add that the later point; selling toys, the notion of a prequel as nothing more than a cash grab in the case of the SW prequels has an element of truth but, considering the nature of the SW beast that critique could have been reduced to a niggle if the acting had been up to par.

This falsehood, that CGI equals bad, has resulted in a critical laziness, a culture that equates CGI and sequels/prequels as some cheap money machine with no artistic worth and misses the point completely, that is, it is actors on screen who convince, who pull us into other worlds and engage us with the emotion of a narrative, something that was sorely lacking in the SW prequels, films that were supposed to tell an emotional backstory of interpersonal relationships against a political background, in a galaxy far, far away.

With the Hobbit films, I have loved them but I am also disappointed not, as some our on these boards because they were not what I wanted them to be before I saw them but, for what I did see and realised what they could have been. If PJ had not been afraid of his own legacy and dispensed with his urge to constantly entertain ( read action sequences), he could have taken his extraordinary cast and delivered The Godfather 1 and 2 for the 21st century blockbuster generation, a fantasy tale with emotional weight and intrigue, with subtley and elegance drawn from his thespians.


Ths Starwars prequals do get more criticism than simply there excessive CGI but I do agree with your point that the criticism of them tends to be rather simplistic and/or lazy. That was really my point that there was a desire for another prequals because critics(especially net commentators) and forum posters wanted the same situation again where such criticism could be made, attract a lot of interest and not be called out much.

You look back prior to the release of the Hobbit films and there was already a clear climate of negativity around them.

In terms of PJ's "urge to entertain" I actually felt this helped the Hobbit films a lot of the time. It did get excessive in terms of action at points I agree but I don't really agree that the Hobbit films were suited to a "godfather" like atmosphere, a larger than life tone partway between the LOTR films and the book suited the story much better for me.

I actually think that as with Kong is is actually something Jackson has run afoul of, that is the "darker = better" mindset that a film must have a bleak and gritty realistic tone to have any depth to it. Ironic really as you could argue LOTR was actually partly responsible for the growth of that mindset although those films did not depend on there "darkness" for their depth.


(This post was edited by moreorless on Jan 30 2015, 11:10am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 1 2015, 1:03am

Post #64 of 65 (1160 views)
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Well, I'm glad you're back! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes its good to take a break, when things are close to your heart. Glad you have new statues to review - good for you! I clamp down hard on myself to keep the collecting within my house size.Laugh








Elessar
Valinor


Feb 1 2015, 6:33am

Post #65 of 65 (1156 views)
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Thanks. :-) :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I think so as well. Especially when it's something like this that means so much and you begin to feel down a bit because it is a pain to share the love of the material. Thanks. :) I'm excited to get some reviews done if the weather here in Missouri will play nice. lol I'm gonna have to as my collecting room is about full. lol


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